destructive tantrum when given consequences

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

we were supposed to be going to a xmas craft evening. when i went upstair to get changed i heart a yelp from DS2 (3) and then crying like he was in pain. i ran downstairs and ds1 (7) was sitting innocently on his chair holding ds2's cat. through the tears ds2 said that ds1 kicked him in his privates when he tried to get his cat from him. i asked ds1. he said he didn't. so i asked him how ds2 had hurt himself (he was obviously in pain) and ds1 admitted that he had kicked him. i said "fine, we're not going to xmas crafts tonight because of that". he started crying, saying it was an accident, begging for a second chance. i said no, he should never be kicking anyone and that he deserved to have consequences. he started shouting that i was a bitch (this is a recurring thing but hasn't happened in months since we moved away from the area we used to live) so i sent him to his room. as he was going up the stairs he turned and gave me the middle finger (again, recurring thing) and called me a fucking dick. he then went into his room and has been alternating between slamming the door again and again, and trhowing things about the room and opening the door to call me swearwords before slamming the door again. thsi has been for coming up to 10 minutes. he is still banging something now.

i'm ignoring it. but is that the right thing to do? slamming a door and throwing things are completely unacceptable IMO but he does this whenever i issue a consequence. if he threw something in an isolated incident i would consider that worthy of a consequence in itself but there is so much of it happening during each tantrum. do i ignore it because he is doing it for a reaction or should he be made to face the consequences of it. it's destructive! that isn't acceptable but i feel as though ignoring his reaction to being given a consequence i am permitting this behaviour. i want him to feel that destroying his room and part of our house is the least appealing option for him when he has been told off. also, i dont feel i have any respect from him (surprise surprise). the swearing and name calling is unacceptable, but again, do i issue another consequence for that or ignore it because he wants a reaction? i'm completely lost TBH.

You're right, the swearing, name-calling and violence is completely unacceptable. Has he started acting like this recently or has it been building up? Is he like this at school?

I would try the following:

1. Next time he misbehaves, give him a chance to avoid the punishment by giving him a choice: "x [unwanted behaviour] is unacceptable. If you don't do y [modified behaviour] then z [punishment] will happen." So in the kicking situation, it would be: "Kicking is unacceptable. If you do not put the cat down and apologise to your brother then you will not come to the craft fair this evening." If he doesn't do y then follow through with z every time. Make sure z is something proportionate and fairly immediate so that the incident isn't overshadowing the whole day. Naughty step/corner can be used at home in the absence of anything else.

2. Write down some ground rules (with your OH if applicable) and introduce them at a family meeting. They should be fairly straightforward e.g. In this family, we speak kindly to one another.

3. See his class teacher re. his language. It is shocking that he's using those words at 7yo. Assuming he isn't picking it up at home via TV etc. then it's coming from school and it needs to be cracked down on hard.

the language became an issue last year. we moved from a very small cul de sac where he had 2/3 friends his own age to a large housing estate with lots of children of all ages right up to teens and unfortunately some of the children my son played with had absoloutely appalling behaviour and used language that was absoloutely disgusting. some as young as 2/3 were using it. my son copied very quickly and it got to the point where i was looking for every excuse i could to keep him from playing out. this had an effect on his behaviour because obviously being cooped up inside when your friends are out feels like you are being punished and he would tantrum, wreck his room and swear at me and even attack me. it got very bad and we were lucky to be able to move after only a year in june. his behaviour has really improved. tantrums were once several times a day but now it could be once a month. i think it kicked off so badly tonight because he had really wanted to go to the craft night.

he did have issues in school but more associated with disruptiveness as opposed to temper or attitude or bad language and thankfully over the past 2 months his teacher has been really impressed with him and says he has really matured. i have noticed too and so have my parents and my friend.

thank you for your suggestions. what should i do in future if he still misbehaves after being given a choice and i send him to naughty step or his room and he tantrums? do i ignore the tantrum/destruction/language? or do i go and try and stop it? do i give him consequences for the tantrum?

Send him somewhere he can't do any harm - the bottom step if you have stairs is ideal, if not then a corner where there's nothing to throw. He's acting like a toddler so same rules apply:

• take him there yourself rather than sending him;
• tell him why he is there and how long he is there for (1 minute per year of age). E.g. You kicked your brother and wouldn't apologise so you are staying on the naughty step for 7 minutes."
• disengage immediately after that: walk away and ignore any tantrums, screaming or name calling;
• if he leaves the step/corner before time's up then take him back. Stay disengaged as much as you can;
• when the time is up, go and get him, tell him he can come away now;
• that's it. Resist the urge to make him apologise, tidy up, talk it through etc. as that can trigger the angry feelings that started the whole misbehaviour cycle and start it off again. If there's tidying up to be done then leave 20 minutes before you do it together. If you need to discuss something then do it at bedtime when you're cuddled up and calm.

thank you SSP. i had stopped using the step when his younger brother started pulling wallpaper off the wall when he was sent. but i can see i'm just going to have to persevere and re-paper when they are older.

i'm glad you said not to ask for an apology because when i used to in the past (as recomended by supernanny) it always felt like a condition of being allowed off the step and so not genuine remorse. which just felt silly knowing he resented saying it.

Nah, making them say sorry is farcical, don't bother. It just starts off the negative feelings all over again and if they don't mean it then what's the point?

I feel your pain with the wallpaper though!

my son has tantrums like this, I have posted a few long posts about it before with some of the things we have found helped.

Once he (your ds or mine) gets angry, he has lost control. This isn't just something he can regain in a second or two, it is actually physical, the brain gets swamped with a certain chemicla that floods the part of the brain that is responsible for decision making.
This means that once he has lost his temper, he is unable to stop, until he calms down, and that can take up to an hour.
So we now do a few things. If we can see he has passed his point of no return, we send him to his room. He stays there until he is ready to talk about his behaviour calmly. We use his room because then it is his stuff he is trashing, not ours or his sisters.
We don't continue to impose sanctions, so there is one consequence for the whole temper incident. Otherwise we were trying to impose sanctions and they just kept building up and building up until he was banned from everything for the rest of his life! Now, one sanction for the whole incident even if it lasts a long time.

We have lots of issues over language (thanks to a lovely 5 year old girl in his previous school in a pretty village - she knew swear words I have never heard before!!) In order to stop the swearing and rude backchat, and also to stop things escalating, we have a few standard sanctions, which always apply.
So, swearing - you have to leave where rest of family is, as we don't want to hear it. (go to your room) you can only come out when WE say.
backchat - one chance to rephrase and apologise, otherwise same as swearing, and once he can apologise I often get him to rephrase what he was saying in an acceptable way (to teach him his opinion matters, but he must learn to express it in an acceptable way)

violence - he often hits/kicks etc his sister. This is zero tolerance. He looses whatever the argument was about (so if it was over a toy, she automaticaly gets the toy) we have tried lots of standard consequences for this, none have worked. Our current one is that you have to do a job for the family. The first weekend I introduced this, ds ended bagging up 5 big bin bags of leaves in the garden, one for each incident. it was a very positive consequence (he normally has to go and calm down first though before he can do the job)

It is such hard work having a kid with an explosive temper, My ds is often very charming, loving and affectionate. He feels things very deeply, which is actually a beautiful quality, but this is the flip side.
Persevere, above all, be consistent and (I know this is really hard) be calm, when we are calm and simply repeat calmly, you are swearing you need to go to your room' the situations do not escalate nearly so much.

I do not use the step any more with ds

1. it is within earshot of the rest of the family, so he continues to shout etc, so it doesn't stop the tantrum
2. he damages whatever is within reach (like your walpaper) in his room he damages his stuff, this is a much better incentive to learn control
3. when he is cross, he sometimes needs a long time out time to calm down. This is more about calming him and the situation than about punishment. Sending him to his room allows him the time out to recover. An angry 7 (8, 9, 10) year old CANNOT often control himslef to stay on the step, they have truly lost it

thank you steppemum that is massively helpful. yes my ds is a very sensitive child and can get very teary about things. reminds me very much of me as a child but i never would have tantrummed. i just cried alot.

i had wondered if i should make him do something nice for his brother to make up for kicking him but i thought it might be a similar thing to the forced apology, as in forced to be nice so he really resents it?

you have given me loads to think about.

as an aside does anyone know where i might have set my glasses during the whole episode as i cant find them at all.

and sorry like supernanny does it doesn't help in this situation I agree, but once they have calmed down, there should then be some sort of understanding and acknowledgment of what they have done and why it was out of order. My ds often does this by apologising for shouting/swearing etc.

I came across a brilliant thing called the anger ladder. I am sorry I can't type it all in, but if you do an advanced search I have described it before. it really helped me undersatdning him, and feeling as if I was making progress.

thanks steppe i'll search it now.

i've just been up to check on him and there are holes in his bedroom door. it looks like he's used his hurling stick to bash it. this is a rented house, i'll have to replace it. he'll have to have a consequence for that. i cant let that go unmentioned. it's way too far.

Oh Santa that is rubbish

One of the things on the anger ladder is about teaching them the next step. So right now when he is angry he is kicking the door, so you need ot talk ot him about what he CAN hit that is safe and allowed so a cushion, a telephone directory, a teddy etc, rather than a door. Every time he manages to hit safe things not breakable things, you congratulate him for success in controlling WHAT he hits, then you move on to expressing his anger verablly rather than hitting anything

Yes he needs a consequence, normally I try and make it match the deed, but that is hard in this case.
If the door is painted, you can fill with pollyfiller and repaint rather than replace it

I have two children with Asperger's and we have to deal with this sort of meltdown quite often.

I try to remember that once they have lost their temper thy cannot process language very well so there is little point in imposing consequences at the time.

Left alone they will calm down most quickly.

I repeatedly talk to them about appropriate ways to express their anger. DD2 has a punchbag hanging in her room.

When they have calmed down they have to help repair/tidy up/pay for the results of their actions. This is because they live in a world where adults who have meltdowns experience dire consequences so they have to learn to control their actions at some point.

I remind them when I see them starting to lose it that they have a choice about how to respond to their anger and I tell them what those choices are.

If I need to tell them to do something I use very clear, direct language saying what I do want them to do, not what I don't want them to do.

I try really, really hard to remain very calm at all times when they are losing it. I don't always succeed.

HTH

thanks for getting back to this. i spoke to him yesterday about the tantrum and the damage to the door.

i asked him how he felt he behaved and he said it was very bad.

i told him that it is perfectly fine to be angry and that i get angry too but that it isn't acceptable to be abusive to people or things. i reminded him that not only had he made the evening very uncomfortable for both ds2 and I but that both our neighbours had probably heard him and would be very upset at being disturbed. i asked him how we were going to make the door the same as it was before and he said we'll have to buy one (we will, there is no way to patch it, it's not painted but varnished) i asked him if it was fair that i had to pay to fix damage that he caused and he said no. he offered to pay for it from his money box and i agreed that was a good idea. (i've had a look and have found the same doors for £19.99 so not excessive and he has enough) so we are going to get a new one and he will pay. i will talk to him about how he would like to vent his anger in future, suggest things like using his pillow or a phone book or something.

he has snapped with me a couple of times since and been about to slam doors but he has either caught himself in time or i've reminded him that there will be a consequence for abusing the house and he hasn't done it.

steppemum what you say is so helpful. I too have a child with Asperger's, whose tantrums are quite easy to deal with, because they are predictable, but actually dealing with the NT children aged 10 and 12 having explosions requires more self control on my part as they appear soo unreasonable. One of the lessons I have learnt it that swearing a) releases tension b) is intended to upset you. Mine have only just started to swear, and I suspect it is because they are really really frustrated when they do it. So I try to think about how to set boundaries more effectively and in a way that won't humilate and frustrate them (ie cause further tension which will lead to more swearing!) Also not to appear visibly affected by them swearing, as I think it makes a downward spiral, where they get upset because you are upset etc etc.

I also think you are right about the consequences having to be simple and finite.

Ds1 is twelve and we are having quite a few angry outbursts. What helps is just to wait till they are over, not give in, but be reasonable from the outset, also not issue sanctions as I go along, but warn him before what the boundaries are. Dd goes straight to her room if she hits or screams, but I am really working on trying to stop it getting to that level by listening to her more.

I think swearing comes as the most terrible shock when you are the parent But when you are the parent you have to not behave like an outraged citizen, but just like someone who has heard something extremely irritating and silly.

santa you sound like you are doing a brilliant job at explaining things to your son, and helping him.

thanks you swanning. yes steppemum advice is brilliant. it makes perfect sense when you see it written down. it's just so had to think logically and unemotionally when the tantrum is happening right infront of you. my brain panics and cant think what is the right thing to do.

so hard to think logically.

swanthing - I really agree with the taking time to listen. Things improved for us when we deliberately set aside time each day just for him
He used to get bedtime story, but he now reads to himself. He recently asked why the girls got mummy time (bedtime story) but he didn't. I hadn't relaised that he missed it. We now call it his mummy time and often we just cuddle and talk.
We have also worked on giving him responsibility (he is 10) and thing to make him feel good about being the oldest. So on Friday night he is allowed to stay up to watch something that girls are too young for, it started with Dr Who, and he looks out for and records things he would like to see.
These have really helped, and these kind of tactics need to go alongside the boundaries IMHO

Santa - my ds is particularly bad at the moment because he is so tired/end of term.

Santa I have a 7yo DS1 and a 2yo DS2 and this sort of behaviour does't seem quite normal. They both have their moments but I would be furious if DS1 called me a bitch and gave me the middle finger. He knows there would be consequences. I just can't imagine getting anywhere near that stage with DS1 and he is very spirited, although as he gets older he mellows! Do you think all is OK with your DS1?

i know it's not normal funny. it is completely unacceptable and i am ashamed to be the parent of a 7 year old who does this. the first few times it happened i was furious, believe me and he was punished. it all started through a combination of things, EXp left and we moved to that horrible area. worst year of my life and i couldn't wait to get him away from it but the language had been heard and the behaviour had been seen and he knew he could get a reaction from me by doing it. as i said, since we moved in june it has calmed right down and tantrums that used to be several times daily are now down to about once a month, if even that. it could be that he is tired at the end of the term,he's had a few late nights due to clubs and classes, his dad has been sporadic in his contact, i think there is also so much going on around xmas that ds wants to be going to and obviously he cant go to everything and every 'no' i give him is a disappointment. there are things we have planned to go to aswell but that is all dependant on behaviour and sometime his behaviour means we dont go (like wednesday evening) which is also frustrating for him but i have to follow through. i'm trying not make things like that behaviour dependant anymore because TBH he wouldn't get anywhere if i insisted on a week of all good behaviour. he has responded over the last 2 days and i know the message will get through, hopefully sooner rather than later. he is a bright boy i just need to help him vent in a better way.

steppemums advice and your conversation with your DS sound perfect to me.

DD2 could throw a pretty good tantrum from 6-10, not quite as destructive or sweary (she wouldn't have known many good words at 6 and I don't think girls are generally break things)

Steppe's right once her brains was full of anger chemicals she could not calm down.

DD1 and I learnt not to argue, she was just told to go to her room until she wanted to be nice.(Winding up big sister was often the cause of her being in trouble. The other was the world not revolving around her.)

Sometimes that was 10 minutes, sometimes DD1 and I forgot about her for an hour. Didn't matter she'd just be playing quietly and not bothered to come down.

DD2 is a control freak, she likes things her own way and she doesn't like being the youngest. Losing a game really hurts.

She thrives on one to one attention, lots of hugs and feeling in control. If she gets to choose and get her own way sometimes she feels far more secure. Really silly little bits of her own way are very important to her. Often giving way on tiny unimportant things could make her stupidly happy. Choosing meals works well.

She is unbelievable good at school and I think she needs to let the act slip once she's home.

It's only in the last year, she's getting to understand why flying into a rage is very annoying for everyone else and even apologise.

Santa - don't get tied up in 'normal' or 'not normal' You can obvioulsy see some of the triggers that caused it, and you are addressing it. Some children really are this emotional and get this angry. If you do not have a child that does this, you don't always get it (sorry Funnys I am not dismissing your opinion, it is just that as a parent of a child who has extreme meltdowns, it can be very tiring to justify yourself and your parenting all the time)

The swearing is taught. Once they have learnt it you can't unlearn it. My ds learned all of this swearing and much worse at a charming little village school in a 'naice' area. There was one child aged 5 and she taught all the kids all the swear words there are and more. They quickly learnt that they cause a reaction, so, guess what, thye use them when they are upset.
We clamped down hard, no swearing allowed at all, dh and I don't even swear at all. We have also had conversations about what is acceptable in the 'real world' of adults etc, and pointed out that we don't swear, his grandparents don't swear, you can't swear in a professional job etc. The bottom line is, he knows those words and he knows they will get a response. Now the response is to send him to his room so we don't have to listen to them. He didn't like that, so most of the swearing has stopped. It only happens now when he is really upset and angry.

The anger ladder talks about moving from violence against people to violence against things to verbal inappropriate language, to shouting to talking. In others words, you try and get them to improve the way they express anger. In this context, I coudl say that ds has learned not to hit when he is angry and not to break things, and he is at the stage of swearing so he is doing well - 2 steps up the ladder, and now he needs to shout without swearing. That actually makes me feel as if we are making progress, even if he still swears!

Oh yes startail - ds is almost never in trouble at school, high acheiver and controls himslef even when things don't go his way - takes a huge effort on his part

I should add that DD1 is 3 years older, but dyslexic, so DD2 has been able to correct her reading and writing for a very long time.

DD2 is also much better at making friends.

Baiting big sister is therefore easy.

DD1's ability not to join in is quite amazing. I think she worked out what made DD2 tick before I did.

DH doesn't entirely get DD2, but he does hug her, read to her, play silly games and generally give her lots of attention. This is definitely good.