DD bullying DS for faaaaar too long. It needs to stop now but I don't know how.

[FredWorms]

DS is 13, DD is 11 and they have a younger brother who's 6. DD (middle child) has bullied her older brother on and off for several years, yes, years, and I just don't know how to make it stop.

She is never kind to him and she speaks to him like dirt from morning until night. He will come down in the morning, bright new day, and say "Morning Sis!". She will either ignore him, grunt, or throw him a disgusted look. She calls him fat, stupid, she scoffs at everything he says and everything he does. He either ignores or resorts to shouting and occasionally lashes out, usually hair-pulling, and is pretty much instantly remorseful.

We've tried everything. Ignoring bad behaviour, rewarding good, punishments (withdrawal of privileges, sending to her room) and everything we do seems to make her more resentful of him and to hate him more. We live in a very small house and it's hard to keep them physically apart, which wouldn't be dealing with the problem anyway. I've tried saying she doesn't have to like him but we expect certain standards of behaviour, but she is utterly intransigent. She has never, ever shown any sign of regret or remorse.

He is puzzled, bewildered and his self-esteem is dented, to say the least.

They are very different characters.He is kind, stoic, considerate, a deep-thinker, totally un-sporty and a self-confessed nerd with a profound sense of fairness. She is very competitive, quick-witted, grabs life with both hands and can be very caring and loving. She has to win, be the first, the best, and often succeeds! I think part of it is that she cannot stand the fact that he is the eldest and gets to do/learn everything before her, but she has a plethora of experiences (not to mention certificates) that are unique to her.

Their younger brother is pretty much adored by all, particularly his sister which adds to the hurt for her older brother.

One of my children is suffering, another of my children is the cause, I love them equally and I don't know what to do.

I'd particularly love to speak with anyone who's been through similar? Maybe there are books that could help?

I really do have to do some work now. Back later, and thanks

I would say the behaviour from your dd has developed into a habit, which is hard to break, maybe impossible in the short term if she is very stubborn. I would igore it as far as possible, while showing ds your sympathies are with him.

I was like your dd towards a sibling as we got older & began more separate lives we ignored each other and now get on very well.

Oh OP, how horrible. It must be a very difficult thing for you, as their mother, to deal with. I think you're getting an unnecessarily hard time on this thread, too...
I am another who was bullied by a sibling, and though we are the best of friends now and I love her dearly, I would say that I still suffer from a bit from low self esteem, as I began to believe all the things she said were true. So with my own children, I am a total Nazi when it comes to them being even remotely mean to each other.

I would sit down with the whole family, and begin by being kind. "I am so proud of you all- DC1, you're so kind and thoughtful, DC2 you're so vivacious and fun, DC3 you're sweet and generous. But I have noticed that sometimes, we're not all nice to each other. So from this day on, we have a new house rule. We treat each other as we wish to be treated. We respect each other, and if there are any frustrations, we speak about them calmly in order to resolve. No fighting, no name-calling. If this new rule is broken, items (ipod, phone, use of internet etc) will be removed for lengths of time. If the rule is broken again and again, I will be contacting the school and asking for advice."

Good luck- Please let us know how things go!

If any consolation, I have similar issues and find despite 'good parenting" my kids are at each other in various nasty ways as soon as i leave them in a room at times :( Yet i thought i had it all sorted before that with lots of positive attention, discussion, keeping calm and distancing myself from arguments when they draw me in and following thru of responsibilty and consequences and so on. At least it was working for a while!!
Maybe some children have waves of self righteousness where they aim to be the 'top dog" or boss, at any cost?? Very much anyway about where they are at developmentally and the sibling rivalry and dynamics, as well as very much about us Mums AND DADS!!

Take heart, many of us also praying and wishing for "contented happy families"

Do you know for sure that your DD only behaves like this towards your eldest? Is she a bully at school too?

And expecting her to respond with sarcasm when you ask her something important makes me think perhaps you should be far stricter with regard her bad behaviour.

I have always said that "I don't know" is a complete and utter cop out of an answer and is always without exception an unacceptable answer.

She is doing this because she enjoys the feeling of oneupmanship and superiority it gives her and tbh I do think you have allowed it to go on for far too long.

She should have been made to apologise and reword anything she has said to him in a more positive light, and to quote Thumper's mother, if she cannot say anything nice she can say nothing at all.

She must be challenged and stopped. I can't believe you have allowed her to continue in this vein for so long.

I'd probably get everyone to treat her as she treats her brother for a couple of days and see how she likes it. Talk over her, make plans that do not include her if she is rude, challenge each and every sarky or cheeky remark....I am sure most people would prefer the nicey nicey approach but I think it's too late for that.

You do not have to be hostile or aggressive, but you should clamp down and make it clear that from now on, politeness rules!

But how do I "make her apologise"? Do I withdraw food and water until she does so, because I've tried everything else?

I do feel upset when I read suggestions that I have "allowed" it to go on for too long. I haven't just sat back and watched you know, if you read my OP you will see that I have tried everything I can think of and I have run out of ideas.

I feel as though from some people I'm getting a whole lot of condemnation and not many actual suggestions beyond the vague suggestion that "it has to stop". I know that. That's why I'm here (with apologies to those who have offered ideas)

How many years has it been going on? She is only eleven, so did it start when she was 9 or 8 or even 7? At the age of 7 or 8 (and even 9, 10 and 11)surely your word is still law, so in some capacity you must have allowed it to continue.

My suggestion is zero tolerance, but that doesn't seem to be to your taste.

Its easier said than done to stop the bullying. I imagine that your daughter must be a pretty unhappy child to be behaving like this.

Does your daughter or son's school have a family support worker? Does your children's schools offer training or resilence or protective behaviours.

Generally bullying happens when the bully feels insecure or whatever reason. Does your daughter have friends at school? Has she just started a new school? Is there something causing her stress and she is taking it out on her brother.

This charity runs parenting courses. Prehaps there is something in your area or you could ring their support line.

familylives.org.uk/

Please don't feel condemned . We all know how bloody hard parenting can be at times. It's really difficult to give solid concrete advice without knowing DD, all facts, etc. Is it not possible to say 'You need to behave with politeness and pleasantness to everyone in this house. The next time you put your brother down I will remove your Internet rights/mobile phone. You will have them returned when you apologise to him'. (The apology needs to sound sincere - said surlily/sarcastically and you say briskly, 'needs to be better than that I'm afraid'. Try again in an hour'). If she needs to apologise 3 times in a week (or however many times you decide) then Internet access is lost for whole of the next week. I would personally try something along those lines. You need to make the sanction something she will really hate - or she's not going to bother apologise. Best of luck

I have to confess I only have 1 young child so considered not replying to this but I have worked with children of this age for many years. Most recently in field of restorative justice. As it sounds this was initially in the justice system but more recently used very successfully in schools too to deal with all kinds of wrongdoing, including bullying. There's lots of info out there about it. You could try sitting them both down for a restorative meeting, the language used quite intentionally doesn't ask why as the response you get from most people is ' I don't know'. Instead it focusses on thoughts & feelings & reaching an agreement to put things right & for future behaviour. Importantly this approach was designed as a way for victims to have their say & so would give your son a chance to be honest about how this is effecting him. I imagine this would be hard for your daughter to hear directly from him.

As someone else has suggested, if your school has a parent support advisor they may be RJ trained and able to facilitate a meeting for you or give you more info.

Not so long ago parents used physical punishment to get children to behave
Our generation uses reasoning/natural consequences, yet our kids have to be willing/motivated to do what we ask them
One of Your daughters strongest needs is approval from mum/dad
descriptive praise builds vital self esteem
if u consistently show yr appreciation every single time yr DD shows kindness to her brother, she will slowly improve to maintain yr appreciation
If u use yr drive to achieve willing co-operation you both win
If u r driven to win every argument with forced compromise, u may win the argument but risk losing the relationship- children often equate losing with being a failure, doubt themselves and their parents love for them.
Wise parents avoid arguments
Yr dd has unmet needs that r driving her verbal abuse/bullying, she may need lots of one-one to discuss what is behind this or therapy if she is unwilling to discuss what she feels is behind her inappropriate behaviour From her point of view, she may feel either she gets more attention/ power/status from being the boss of yr son? All kids get it wrong sometimes, even those who are forced to toe the line. Dont despair, u just need to focus on reconnecting with yr daughter, yr sons and what is driving their behaviour- if she is unwilling to sit down for a hot chocolate and chat for each day to reconnect and learn what is behind her behaviour, seek counselling Offer the same to yr boys and make sure u reconnect with each child. put housework last for this week, make their reconnecting time yr 1st priority to achieve a clear understanding of everything they r feeling but keep to themselves. u may well will win the war this way
Tell yr daughter and sons u are never giving up and no matter how long it takes u will take everyone's needs into account so that each child can feel safe from verbal abuse in their own home and each child feels happy their needs are being met

this week, go out for a coffee/time out from the kids after u share one-one with each of them, make sure u have relaxation/downtime too

lots exercise each day helps all kids behaviour, but Im sure yr kids may already have lots activities/sport on as most do

Im sure u can change this, u r already drawing a line in the sand that u want change, my son is very well behaved last few days, he will always be an anxious child and fly off the handle uickly at times, but he knows that we wont give up on expecting kindness, fairness from him, tho he does like to be cheeky/tease his sister, he really has responded well to lots ++++++persistent praise and removal of priviledges if v. bad

Hope u find some love & sunshine this wk from reconnecting daily with yr lovely children, along with the defiant bad behaviour

ideas above based on Miriam Chachamu's "How to Calm a challenging child"
v. useful for me with our sibling rivalry and issues
Just read, she suggests u ask your older child what may help her to have abetter time with her brother and what will help her to like her brother more She says u may be surprised by how capable she is of thinking and 2 give her credit for being capable of considering this!!
Best wishes

Have you read "siblings without rivalry"???

Is it possible that she is getting back at her brother for his "demanding" to be the centre of attention now that he has matured enough to mostly not react to her nastiness? All of this could be on a sub conscious level tbh.

Have you been into school to chat with teacher or head of year? Is she at secondary ?

Maybe getting the school involved would make her realise that people outside the family may need to be involved. If she's not showing remorse, she may need help from a professional.

You say your DS was hard work until aged 10 and your DD was lovely, the he changed for the better and she changed for the worse. I'd guess they are linked. Maybe she's annoyed that her brother got all the attention when his behaviour was poor, and she figures behaving like this is a good way to get attention? Maybe she resents that his poor behaviour has been 'forgotten' - I know it's not like that really, but that may be how she sees it?

Either way I'd focus on asking her how she felt when her brother was behaving badly, and that may lead on to a conversation about her behaviour now.

I think that the time has come to consider getting outside help for your DD's behavior if your sanctions aren't working. My brother and I grew up with a sibling with SN who took up all my parents' time and attention. We obviously felt hugely resentful (looking back - couldn't articulate it at the time) and turned in each other, being really horrible.

As a result, we both have low self esteem now and we're not close at all. Your DS's home is the one place he should feel safe and secure.

Turned on each other

Sweetiesmum Excellent post

Thanks 'really tired' u guys really raise my faith in humanity, so many people reaching out to help, had to get on the bandwagon!! x

Do you think some bonding time between them might help? The basics of this might be some sort of Go Ape experience, camping, a survival weekend or somesuch?

I think I understand where your daughter may be coming from emotionally. You say that your older son used to be more challenging (forgive me paraphrasing) but then became nicer and easier to deal with about 3 years ago. You also say your DD has been bullying him for years - did it start then?

My guess would be that she was used to the status quo where DS1 was the 'difficult' family member who would stress you out. In that scenario she could feel herself to be the 'good' one who didn't cause stress and who must surely be, logically, preferred (even if you didn't consciously want to give that impression). Now his behaviour has improved, presumably you get on with him better and so your DD might not feel herself to be the easy-going favourite any more. That's got to be hard for her to cope with.

In my family my mother was the controlling emotional influence - the rest of us all bonded due to our responses to her demanding behaviour. When she realised what a bitch she was being and tried to be nicer, both my sister and I started feeling utter contempt for her. Her previous behaviour, while awful, had positioned her as the badass in our house. We didn't like her but we did treat her carefully because her response might be awful. Once that threat had gone, we treated her like crap because we didn't have to be scared of her response anymore. I'm not condoning our behaviour but we both did it more or less on cue, so maybe it's an automatic response when you sense that the bully has lost their power.

For me personally, it went like this: I am worth much less than you (the bully) and I fear you. If you become much less worthy of respect, then that makes me angry. I let myself be treated badly by someone as pitiful as you, what does that say about me? I must be very weak. Maybe I'll show I'm not weak by always attacking you.

When my mother does occasionally now snap back, we do back off significantly. Maybe your DS1 needs to respond to DD once in a while in order to re-establish the fact that just because he's now nicer, that doesn't mean he's a pushover. He doesn't need to be horrible, just verbally respond in such a way that shows he does not feel himself to deserve the disrespect. My guess is that she'll back off rapidly and stop being horrible to him.

I repeat that I am not condoning my/my sister's response to our mum; bullying the bully is a terrible way to behave and we are trying to alter our behaviour now.

Good luck OP.....

I think it's time for a child psychologist or some outside help...sounds like you've tried/done all the right things and they aren't having much effect so that's be my way forward if I was in your situation. It might really get to the bottom of things if your DD saw someone-it isn't nice for her to be jealous/bitter at 11!-and I think it might shape her personality quite a lot going forward which is bad news for her to go through life like that. I think she has a problem that needs deeper attention which is why a specialise would help. And lots of self esteem building stuff for your boy.

I think you should seek out a family therapist and all go for therapy.
It's sad that you feel unable to protect your child from this abuse so it's not just about the children.

OP I think you sound like a really loving mother! It must be heartbreaking to have this situation in your loving family.

As the parent of one child, I'm not in a position to offer experienced advice. However, I have an older brother who I treated 'badly' when I was a child. Just in case something here is useful to you, I will list what was going on beneath the surface.

I spoke to my brother in an exaggerated version of the way my mum spoke to my dad. There was stress in the marriage and my parents were in denial about the way this affected the children in the family. If you have an 'ideal' for how you'd like DD to speak to DS, maybe just check you are modelling that in the way you treat your DH. That American show, Jon and Kate plus 8, is another example of what happens in sibling relationships when there is distance and contempt in the marriage. In addition to that, if your DS was so dreadful in the past, there were probably times when you spoke to him in a stressed, exasperated way. There may be a bit of resentment on DD's part now, thinking 'Why do I get such flak for this when everyone used to do it?'

1. I'm not saying the situation is your fault in any way, but you are key to the family dynamic and the sibling dynamic evolves out of how the kids relate to you. Even now, my brothers and I enjoy each other's company much better without our mum. When she's around we're all relating to her and falling back into our roles as rivals! You could remove yourself and see what happens, perhaps by having a close friend or aunt take them on an action weekend together. If the adult has your DD's respect, she may take her cue from the adult and try out a new way of speaking to DD.

1. I know from personal experience that it can be hellish to have an older brother who is demanding, overbearing, easily irritated and over sensitive. Despite your best intentions, it was probably impossible to expend equal amounts of effort and attention on them both. Your DD will have got used to living in a stressful situation. Now it is over, she's probably resentful. Where is her prize? Your brother got all the attention before, and now he has switched roles to get attention in a different way. The more she feels like this, the worse she will be and the more this explanation will seem true to her. If this is the case, threatening to send her away would only confirm these feelings. Seriously talking about sending DS away, on the other hand, so he doesn't have to be around her bullying, might make her stop and think.

1. Your DD sounds unhappy. It might be nothing to do with her brother at all. Perhaps she has just got into the habit of taking out her sadness/stress on him. Perhaps she is being treated poorly in some other area of her life, and this is how she's coping with it.

1. I've noticed that children always work to get things back to whatever they consider 'normal'. In treating her brother as if he were still a problem child, your DD may be trying to make her environment safer. If your son is still a bit overbearing or intrusive, she may use hostility as a defence against feeling embarrassed, threatened and exhausted.

That got a bit long, sorry! I hope there might be something there of use to you. Very much hope you've found this thread to be helpful.