Three months old too young for sleep training?

[Mandinga79]

I'm in a quandary. My three month old has slept pretty much through the night (from about 9:30 until 4:30) since he was about two weeks old, for which I feel extremely lucky, especially as he is exclusively breast-fed. We have a strict bedtime routine in place of bath-feed-bed starting around 8pm every night. My problem is that he will not fall and then stay asleep unless he falls asleep on the breast, then is held for about an hour until he is deeply asleep, when he is transferred extremely carefully into his cot. On the rare occasion he wakes up in the night for a feed I can usually get him back in his cot after a 20 minute feed, without the holding part, mercifully. He does, however, need the feeding and holding to get him down for naps during the day as well which he HAS to have or he's demon-baby. I've tried putting him in his cot when he's drowsy but not asleep after a feed for naps or bedtime - this does not work for him. Eyelids fly open, he starts to look panicked and whimpering escalates into screaming. I tried pat-shh today for his morning nap which just ended up being a hands-on controlled cry. After screaming for an hour and a half to the point of gagging, he finally fell asleep exhausted, but only stayed asleep for half an hour, when he'd normally have a good two to three hours. I think he was starving from the effort of screaming. I really don't want him to get into the habit of relying on feeding then prolonged holding for all naps and bedtime as it will be hard to break later, especially as he'll probably be starting nursery around 9 months. But then I don't want to introduce a sleep training method that he's too young for and which may upset the good sleep habits he does have in place. Help? Please?

'The only thing I didn't do was pick him up because shush pat says not to'

FFS put down the book and pick up your child.

I really need to learn to avoid threads like this because they upset me so much. I wouldn't leave my 17 month old crying in his cot for an hour, even if I was right there next to him.

Bigus - you left a 12 week old for an hour?

My babies were both big, they didn't sleep through the night for ages. Each child is different and trying to train them to do something when they are so little is cruel IMO.

Am hoping it's ok to continue to feed my 3 month old on demand (long before he cries) and to hold him till he falls asleep.
I always think he'll never know such comfort once he's grown up! If I were at work I could see the need to regulate sleep more, but I think maternity leave allows you to follow the baby's pattern as much as possible.

Nothing to do with size.

Babies bf to sleep because their bfing relationship with you is something built upon instinct and mother nature cleverly made it so that bfing will make both you and your baby happy and sleepy. It's nature's way of ensuring good sleep for you both and you're fiddling with something which doesn't need to be fixed. They don't know they're separate from you at 12 weeks, they truly don't. Which is why you'll find them peacefully, happily nodding off into good, restful sleep with you there. And them screaming and waking distressed when you don't. Babies learn that sleep is a secure and happy thing and they achieve self settling when developmentally ready. You can of course leave them to scream at 12 weeks and they will also sleep. But you're teaching them a very different lesson. If I scream, nobody comes. And screaming is all they have. That is not a lesson I was willing to teach any baby of mine.

It IS hard but you have a baby who is in a brilliant, brilliant and happy routine. Imagine if bfing didn't work, eh? Now that's a sleep problem. It resolves naturally. Don't risk making sleep something of a battleground when the status quo is working right now. It passes and too quickly.

I'm a bit Team Tee on sleep training though.

Have you tried a sling for the hour holding bit after a feed?

Ok, but what do those lecturing about cortisol levels think about my baby who had to cry for a week in intensive care? He was on morphine, but still. Worries me when I read this stuff though he seems very well adjusted and confident at three. I can't be the only one, what about all the poor little preemies attached to wires??

And when does the natural feed to sleep association come to an end? Like I have said in another thread, I don't mind feeding my seven month old a couple of times in the night, but I don't want to be up with her for a hour and a half at three am while she plays...

Ignore the flaming Madinga - if only we were all so perfect! Is this your first? I remember at your stage just being so confused and scared of doing the wrong thing - and you have so many conflicting opinions to listen to. Of course you are only trying to do your best.

My Dhs stock phrase when I was stressing over some aberation in my DCs' behaviour was 'well, they won't be doing it when they're 16 so don't worry about it!' And he was right - it's a matter of getting the right perspective. At this age babies change so rapidly that it's probably best to go with the flow. Mine all fell more naturally into a routine once they were on solids, and settled to sleep better then too - I'm not sure if it was the food or just the passage of time and their development which led to this. As noblegiraffe said, at around 4 months it all tends to go to pot anyway . So just enjoy him and try not to stress and worry about it.

A baby who sleeps with his mother sleeps twice... He'll grow quickly enough and very soon won't want to lie on you to sleep, let alone let you hug him (when he's a teenager), why not enjoy the time together? When my DS started nursery (actually he's with a CM) we started to all co-sleep in the smae gigantic bed so that we could continue building the bond. He sleeps marvellously well because he knows we're around. No one will love you, need you, want you as much as your little one. Just give him what he wants!

Even without the mention of cortisol, personally it's just not nice to leave tiny babies crying because they're not sleeping enough/ sleeping at the right time/going to sleep by themselves.

My personal stress levels are a lot lower this time as I am just going with is and not giving a monkeys when/how DS2 sleeps.

OP - your baby sounds much like mine, except the sleeping from 9am to 4am part! I'd give just about anything for a night like that.

My DD is 5 months and despite a good bit of effort has never been a self settler. We feed, rock and cuddle to sleep - the alternative would mean a lot of crying and stress on her part and that's not something I'm prepared to put her through. It would also mean even less rest for me. I'm exhausted, and have been for months now, but fortunately have a very supportive partner and a DD who will take a bottle despite being bf.

There are some good tips in the No Cry Sleep Solution about feeding to sleep. Basically, you latch baby off just as they are getting drowsy but not deeply sleeping, then gently lie them down. I do this for DD - along with holding her over my shoulder for about 15 minutes after feeding (she has reflux though it's improved a little with age). We listen to some soft music, sway a bit, and I rub her back after she's laid down (she sleeps on her side - not per guidelines but necessary due to the reflux).

On a good night, she might sleep from 8pm with wakings usually around 12 and then again at 4. Often, my DH will give a bottle for the 12pm wake up, and I will feed DD lying down in bed and co-sleep with her for the 4am. It's hard. But also completely normal for a baby of DD's age.

OP, it is entirely your prerogative about how you put your baby to bed, an if you feel it is necessary to let him cry then so be it. Personally, I found shush pat bollocks, as much of the Baby Whisperer book. We tried a bit of that in the early days, but DD hadn't read the book unfortunately. Most of the methods stressed her out and just caused more crying, upset, and less sleep - and left me feeling like a rubbish mum.

No judgement here though - just saying that though your DS might be hard work at the moment, his sleep is completely normal for a young baby. He will also go through incredible changes between now and 9 months. You may have to adapt and vary your settling approaches as he grows and develops. It's good to be flexible, patient and to manage your expectations at this stage.

It can be very frustrating having to sit every evening holding a baby in a dark room. I used to feel like I was going mad putting DD1 to bed every night, it was a rigmarole that involved me laying down on the bed and feeding her for around 2 hours until finally she would be in a deep enough sleep to go in the cot, I could hardly stay in my own skin with frustration. I got through it by listening to audiobooks on headphones so at least I had something to do - is that something you could try? Eventually at around 9/10 months I did a version of walk in/walk out and after that she went to bed much more easily. I don't think it's fair on very young babies to try to control their sleep, unless they take to it easily.

Tholeon it must have been an awful time when your baby was in intensive care, is he alright now? I don't think it's comparable as there's no choice for medical treatment is there, whereas in other situations people have a choice.

I didn't actually bother with doing bedtime in their rooms until mine were much older, I just nursed them off on my lap until I went to bed then co-slept. I had dinner with them on my lap and watched tv with dh.

Once they were a bit older they became disturbed by the light and noise of being downstairs, then i lay down with them in a bed and nursed them off to sleep there, once asleep I just rolled away and went back downstairs, often I would fall asleep too though!

My 9 month old has never slept through, count your lucky stars!
To be honest at 3 months I was having to co sleep just to get some sleep, at 4 months was the horrific sleep regression, 5 months teething, 6 months learnt to crawl so did it in her sleep waking every 2 hours, 9 months now and she's standing up in her sleep calling dada .. And she's been in a routine of bath feed and bed plus 2 good naps a day for the last 6 months....
Not helpfull but wanted to give some persperctive.. You are extremely lucky!

We started sleep training around 6-7 months old. 3 mo is definitely too young. Our DD started daycare at 6 months old and she felt asleep on her own there (at home she would need lots of cuddling before falling asleep!).

Tholeon - the blog/articles I referenced in my earlier post, which I'll put again [http://scienceofmom.com/2012/03/30/helping-babies-cope-with-stress-and-learn-to-sleep/ here] are really very good. The author has done an exhaustive lit search on sleeping issues. Cortisol levels can, although don't necessarily, raise if a baby is left to cry, but there is no evidence that this does any lasting damage.

Flamers seeker, Alibabaandthe40nappies, BillComptonstrousers et al you are NOT HELPFUL. Do you think I derived some kind of sadistic pleasure out of seeing my child in distress? Do you really think I would starve my child because I want him asleep so I don't miss the beginning of Corrie? Yes, I am a first time mum with nowhere else to go other than books and the Internet for advice, as I don't have a huge, baby-filled extended family or friends network I can do this with. My son can get to an overtired point during the day where, if I can't get him to sleep, he is beyond consoling - and that I find unbearable - so my first instinct was to look into ways where he can learn how to settle himself. I do not need you to make me feel inadequate - I'm quite adept at doing that myself, thanks.

The majority of the rest of you have been very helpful (fifitrixibell, you're a champ). Zimbah - don't know how women coped before iPhones. What do you think I'm doing now? ;-)

Right...he's snoring. Time to risk the mum-to-cot transfer!

Of course I don't think you get "sadistic pleasure" from watching you child cry.
And I'm sorry that you have so little support --and I'm glad you gor support from here. Make sure that you listen to lots of different points of view, though.

In parenting, as in most things, the are loads of things there are matters of opinion, of parenting style. CC is a biggie. CC before 12 months is even bigger.

But there are a few things that are just wrong. Fundamentally wrong. And I am afraid that letting a 12 week old baby cry for an hour and half when you could stop it by picking him up, or feeding him is just one of those things. As I'm sure your instincts told you- or you wouldn't have been posting on here about it.

The important thing to remember is that this is only a tiny part of your lives together. Do whatever makes it easier for you both. In the blink of an eye he's be taking himself off to bed with a copy of Harry Potter. Cuddling him to sleep will be a distant, loving memory.

Good lord, I'm not a 'flame-seeker' - whatever the hell you mean by that.

You asked for opinions, I gave you mine. It is wrong to leave a tiny baby crying for so long. I don't even understand why you would do it - they are tiny for such a short time.
I don't have a 'huge extended family filled with babies either', I just know that it feels wrong to leave a baby that young crying when you could cuddle them instead. The fact that you have posted looking for permission, suggests that you feel it is wrong too - listen to your instinct.

OP people are telling you they hate the idea of not comforting a crying baby because they want you to know that - irrespective of what book you've read - not everyone thinks the same way, you're not making a rod for your back etc. Of course you're not "enjoying" watching your baby cry, but you think this is a means to some good result for you and if we disagree with this when it's fair to tell you, especially as you asked for advice! If you are patting your baby, and it keeps crying, then obviously patting is not what the baby is looking for. You already have a method of getting your baby to sleep. So much will change so quickly, just go with what's already working.

Yes, but there are ways of expressing disagreement without being condescending or disparaging. Theirs is not the way. And allowing a baby to cry is not 'fundamentally wrong' - it is just not an approach you would agree with or follow. Plenty of other people on here have suggested that it's not an approach they agree with, without also using words such as 'disgusting' or 'cruel', suggesting that I was starving my baby and speculating that I will, in future, be leaving him to cry for even longer periods of time. I sought, and have received from many constructive opinions and guidance, not condemnation.

Have you read Kiss me by Dr Gonzales? It's not a practical book as such but will make you consider certain points of view. For example, in the long history of humanity it is only very recent that babies are expected to sleep on their own (in their own cot or in their own room) for tens of thousands of years babies would sleep on their mothers. In Japan, or most of Africa, babies are physically glued to their mothers until they are 3 or 4 years old, always sleep with their mothers or both parents.
I highly recommend that book because it is written in defense of children. It is not particulalry "natural" to expect a young baby to sleep on his own.

OP, I don't know how to word this so it doesn't come across as harsh and patronising, but you need to adjust your expectations. Count your lucky stars that you can get such a long stretch of ininterrupted sleep and cuddle your baby - they are babies for such a little time (cliche but true).3 months is tiny, and as someone else said there is a huge difference between 3 and 9 months. Comfort is as necessary as food to your baby, so his cry was "legitimate". He will not always want to be cuddled to sleep, when he is older you can do gradual withdrawal if you want, but you have such a long road ahead of you: 4 months sleep regression, 9 months sleep regression (a biggie for us), colds, teething. So I really think you should lower your expectations and listen to your instincts, pick up your baby and enjoy the cuddles.

Having him self settle is a good idea and I'm all for it, but IMO it's way too early for that, and when he is older there are gentler methods you can use, if you need to. If he cries for one hour now he doesn't understand why, all he wants is his mummy.

I guess Mandinga the people who are harsher feel they are sticking up for your baby.

also we got a bit sidetracked by the poster who said they had done cc on more than one baby at 12 weeks and were busy going I reckon not all the comments were aimed at you OP.

although I'm tired here with 17 week old DS2, I've not worried from day one about the when and how of his sleeping, whereas I'm sure i spent a good bit of time worrying if i was doing it 'wrong' with DS1. until i discovered Mumsnet probably.

also a sling has been great to help him sleep. if he's fed and changed and obviously tired he snuggles in and falls asleep easily.

But OP - just to be fair, you did write in your original post that your DS became very distressed from crying for an hour an a half, to the point of gagging, and that you "thought he was starving from the effort of screaming". To me that sounds really distressing, and obviously some of the other posters are in agreement - even if it wasn't expressed in the most tactful of ways.

I really do think that "self-settling" is something that only a small number of babies do from a young age. Most do it when they are developmentally ready, which often isn't until after they're a year old anyway.

You can find "evidence" on line for any number of approaches. There is a popular American baby-trainer that advocates extended CIO sessions from a very young age (practically birth). Likewise, there is a good bit that suggests such methods are stressful and possibly damaging to neurological development.

Just trust your instincts, follow your heart and use what works for whatever stage of development your baby is going through. You have a great sleeper, really - you do! If Baby Whisperer isn't working (God knows it didn't for me) then chuck it out. Dr Gonzales & Dr Sears have both written some great books which advocate more gentle, compassionate and caring approaches which may prove less stressful for both yourself and DS.

OP. with dd I just kept putting her down quickly after a feed and now at 8.5 months she goes in her cot asleep or drowsy very easily. She's my second - with ds I worried more and found it harder but being more relaxed with dd has helped.