Five year old tantrums, at my wits end.

[hellymelly]

Really upset about this so please don't be too brutal, am feeling a failure as a parent at the moment.
Anyway,background is: My dd (5 and a bit) has been tantrummy all along. One awful phase when her older sister (7) was five and miserable at school. Then dd was having three or more a day, thankfully as things got better and my older dd happy again, the tantrums eased up.
Started reception last September and hasn't been truly happy in school, good and bad patches but at one point she was having night terrors/ tantrums almost every night. They got better but she still has them when she is overtired.
She thought she would still have her teacher this coming year, she was very attatched to her, but suddenly at the end of term her teacher left , having been very unhappy apparently in the post. Dd was shocked and really upset, she saw her teacher crying and was very distressed about it. (I think part of the reason she wasn't happy last year was that she was possibly picking up on the tensions of her teacher being unhappy.)
Anyway she has been a nightmare this holiday, lots and lots of huge meltdown tantrums, she throws things, sometimes hits me, will not give in even though I have confiscated toys and taken her out of cafes etc. I have taken toys to the charity shop too. It is making her older sister miserable as it has disrupted so many days (they always last at least an hour, often longer). The night terror/tantrums are even worse, she shouts "Don't touch me" "no Mummy no" etc at full volume when DH has to carry her downstairs to get her to calm down. Honestly I am amazed a neighbour hasn't called the police because it sounds horrendous. She bites and scratches, hits and kicks, but if we try leaving her in bed she kicks the walls and makes so much noise it wakes her sister and probably next door too.
I really don't know how to handle it. Today we had a Sunday lunch out ruined as she had a meltdown over something tiny, which lasted two hours. She needed a wee and some food but wouldn't have either, so it all dragged on, DH took her to the car, I sat and ate with dd1, then we all went home again with her shouting in the car still, nothing we said made any difference. She hit me several times really hard too.
She hasn't been completely well, and is complaining of tummy aches (back to GP tomorrow) and is really overtired as she has also become really hard to get to sleep- i cuddle with her but it takes ages and then as soon as I get up to leave the room and have supper she wakes again and won't settle, so she's losing sleep every night. (we co sleep, so she's not alone all night).
I don't know what to do. She doesn't seem happy, she is losing out on fun things , and her sister is really getting to resent her.
She is a darling when not angry , really kind and lovely, funny, friendly, very affectionate and sweet.

What positive things do you do to encourage good behaviour?
My DS(6) was really unsettled last summer holiday and is a little bit unsettled this one. I think it's the change of routine and the changing of classes.

I used a sticker chart last year. I made it on the computer and bought some Cars stickers from poundland. It really helped.

We've used sticker charts in the past but they haven't been madly successful. I did suggest to her at bedtime that we start a new one this week though. I do really praise good behaviour, dd1 had a friend over yesterday and we took them all out and dd2 was really good the whole time and seemed happier , she had lots of praise from all of us this morning, including her sister who hugged her and told her how nice she had been. She has treats if she manages to turn round from a tantrum. She herself seems to understand that the tantrums are horrible for everyone but still they happen. She never has them in school, but she often explodes like a pressure cooker as soon as we pick her up.

It sounds tough for you all .

Is she tired? hungry? Not enjoying school?

Sorry no idea what to suggest. DS2 (3.5) often wakes in the night in a rage, and is very hard to comfort neither wanting you or wanting you to leave. It's hard going several nights in a row. We wonder wether he has indigestion as he can seem so uncomfortable.

Funny about the indigestion, as if she is windy then that can trigger a night terror/tantrum/rage. She is really overtired. Last night she had a late night as I let her go on an evening nature walk with her sister and friend, she really wanted to go and was so good but then today has been monstrous. But on a normal night even though I aim to have them asleep by half seven, she is now staying awake until at least 8.30. many nights these hols she has still been awake at half past nine, even though she is in bed in the dark cuddled up with me .She can't switch off and is getting more overtired which is just making everything worse.

You know if you are at wits end, why not try taking her to child psychologist not because there seems to be anything particular wrong with her but sometimes an outside, professional opinion can really make a difference.
She sounds very anxious and stressed. I think the explosions after school are very normal they go all day trying to perform and then fall apart after. I'd go and have a long chat at school and see if she can do some shorter days, or have down days.

I have a wonderful but very challenging 5 yo ds and after ds3 was born tantrums were apocalyptic. There is a wonderful book called 'raising your spirited child' by Mary Kurzinka (sp ?) which I think might give you insight and clues. She sounds very sensitive like my ds (eg picking up on emotions of others) determined, Intense and there are other traits of spirited children she describes. Author also suggests that typically recommended tactics like time out and sleep training may not work with 'spirited' children and I found time out made him more upset and be feel like a failure. There is also a whole chapter on tantrums towards the end with some great tips, although I recommend you read it all to get the whole story.

When it feels like no one else has a child like this and it must be your fault it is soul destroying- but look at your other dd- it is the way you dd is, and with your help she will get through this time

Also my ds never has them at school which I think is a very good sign for your dd. he once said 'I save my worst behaviour for you mummy' which I think is because he knows he is safe with me and I love him!!! A very perculiar compliment! His worst times are around transitions (eg before school/after school, when he's tired, hungry and overstimulated. This is very typical.

mamaonion-I have just bought that book, and in fact my dd said almost the same thing, she said to DH that she got so angry after school because " I can't let it out in school but you Daddy, can take it". Her worst times are the same as your ds's. She is really bright (started talking at 5m) but also a total perfectionist so she gets frustrated and angry if she can't do something to the standard she has set herself.
She is anxious and stressed as you say ally, which worried me as DD1 went through a horrendous time at the same age, becoming hyper-anxious in school and eventually being diagnosed with "school phobia" and anxiety by the ed-psych.
She had most of a school year being home schooled and went back to a new school for year 2, last Sept. She is really happy in her new class and much better but still more anxiety-prone than she was before .(she was terrified of her year one teacher and it spiralled) DD2 then became very scared of starting school after watching dd1, she hasn't found it easy, but rather than talk about her feelings like dd2 would now, she bottles it all up and then explodes. She hates to feel vulnerable and I think her teacher leaving has made her scared of going back to school. We have book on angry feelings ( a picture book for small children) and she recently pointed out to me the picture of a small boy becoming like a volcano, and she said "that is how I felt when dd1 was so unhappy, I felt like that all the time". She was only three then so has bottled it up verbally from then until now. She finds her classmates hard sometimes , doesn't cope well with the "I don't want to play with you any more" sort of stuff. Is better with older children who are gentler with her. She didn't go to nursery or childcare at all and school has been a bit of a shock. I think she feels she has to be this roaring beast or she will get squashed, but her sister adores her, is a kind child, and hates the anger and rages. I am torn between giving her lots of extra love , or stiffer sanctions. I want to do the former, as I hate to see her unhappy, but at the moment she is ruling our household and that can't be good for her never mind the rest of us. Not even sure what stiffer sanctions I could impose anyway!

I have a tantrumming child, and I have found that anything punitive makes it all worse. Tantrums are usually triggered by a fear of some sort, and when you threaten to take her things, that makes that fear worse. Then she feels like her anger has become too powerful for her, and that makes her even more scared. It spirals out of control, and no rational thought can take place at all, so punishments and even rewards are, IMO, completely pointless and also very counterproductive.

I would suggest a more radical approach along the lines of the saying: 'love me most when I least deserve it'. Children who fear a lot need a lot of security and they get that the most when they know they are loved however they behave, and that means feeling they're loved, not just being told it. They need to know they're not pushing your buttons, and their rage is not destroying their world.

Read 'Angry Arthur' for a great children's book about how terrifying kids' anger can be to them.

Children's anger is far too complex for simple 'stick and carrot' approaches to work - what they need is to feel safe and to have their feelings heard. Try reading Raising our Children, Raising Ourselves' by Naomi Aldort - fantastic book that really changed my life. As did How to Talk so Kids will Listen and LIsten so Kids will Talk. WIth any luck, they also changed my tantrumming child's life as well

Yes flamingo I also liked 'how to talk so your kids will listen...' and agree about accepting and verbalising their anger- punishing, rewarding, labelling are all counterproductive.

Sorry that sounded wrong, counterproductive maybe a little blunt, but ime it's about giving your LO skills to cope with their feelings and managing their days to minimise crisis points - eg give them lunch at 12 not trying to fit loads in, giving lunch late, they get hungry.... and so on

Well that is really helpful and has given me some things to mull over. I've hated the carrot and stick thing, I hate myself when I take her toys away, I feel like a big bully,and it is part of why I feel I am failing at this, I feel I am failing her. I suppose I have thought that I needed to make it clear that she can't get her own way all the time, and DH thinks that I have let her get away with too much (he is a very easy going dad, just being driven mad by all this) But when I see her out of control, it is hard to not get angry after an hour or so, but even within that i feel so sorry for her, it must be horrible for her, and I know she feels like the naughty one which I really don't want to become her identity.
Its so tricky, because I do want to make clear that hitting, biting etc are really not ok, but I can see that the way I've gone isn't working .

Sorry not very clear post, am really tired and didn't read it before pressing the button.
Should add she is very very clingy, and that may have been triggered by a bad fall I had in June, I passed out and unfortunately she saw me like that which must have been very frightening.

helly. I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. She had a traumatic event that scared her and made her fear something. She probably doesn't even know what it is. Then whenever you get upset or angry, it terrifies her even if it's just a little upset and she panics. That's what tantrums are, after all - they're just the same as adult panic attacks.

If you were having a panic attack, it wouldn't help you one bit to have people saying 'come on! buck up! you can't behave like this! I'll take away your new clothes!' or worse 'No, I'm not comforting you! I don't want you to think you'll get love from me for having a panic attack!'.

We've been taught for too long in our culture to see meltdowns like this as a way of getting what you want. Fake, kicking legs on the floor tantrums may well be manipulative, but only if parents have spent the last few years saying 'no, no, no, oh for Christ's sake, yes, fine I give in' IYSWIM. Real, frightened, panicked tantrums are not manipulative at all, but are a cry for security, love and understanding.

Let her cling as far as you can bear to - she's just trying to establish a stable base again - and I bet you if you can let her have these feelings and know they don't throw you at all, she'll start settling down again pretty quickly. Every time she tantrums and you react she gets scared that her foundation (ie. you) isn't secure, so you have to show her it is and that she's safe and that you can hold her emotions until she's old enough to hold them herself.

I wrote a series of posts called the 'tantrum checklist' a while ago on my blog. There are two that I think may help you: anxiety and insecurity.

Good luck!

ps. Also, forgot to say, children do learn what's OK and what's not re. violence just by being told it lovingly. They don't have to be punished in order to learn it. As long as you say over and over 'I hear you're angry, but you can tell me in words. People are not for hitting' or something similar but in your own voice, then she'll learn it. My scared five-year old no longer hits when she's having a tantrum (she's now 7.5). The most helpful thing that was ever said to me when I was lamenting her panicky meltdowns about six months ago with my FIL was 'I wonder what she's frightened of?' - I started to ask myself the same question whenever she started having a meltdown (if I remembered before I lost my temper, of course!).

Thankyou flaming, I really appreciate all the posts here because it is making me properly think about what she is feeling- I hadn't thought about my fall until I typed it- rather than just reacting to it all in an AAARGGGH sort of a way. I do stay affectionate towards her whatever happens, I will always cuddle her right away if she wants it -she often shouts "don't touch me" when having a tantrum, but I do make it clear I want to cuddle her and will when she is ready, I don't withdraw affection even if I am really cross with her.

Flaming-Had a look at your blog, I think the anxiety seems more of an issue than insecurity, but I will mull it over more tomorrow. She still bf on waking and before bed, and I have been talking to her about stopping (have recently been diagnosed hypothyroid and feel I need to stop now, its been getting on for 8 years without a break). She doesn't want to stop yet and so that may also be a factor , she has talked of wishing she could go back to being 4 and stay there.

I bet you're right about the bf being a factor. A lot of big things going on in her life in one go, poor thing :( and poor you, too! I know only too well what a nightmare it is having a highly-strung child. It disrupts the whole family, is embarrassing, makes you feel like a crap mum on so many levels. You sound like an amazing mum, though, and, without wanting to sound patronising, the first thin you must, must, must do, imo, is to tell yourself that.

When we tell ourselves we,re doing rubbish, then a) it comes true and b) our children realise and not only treat us as if we're rubbish (because we're 'telling' them to) but also act up out of fear - how safe are they really with a 'rubbish' mum?

So start telling yourself the truth - that you are a wonderful, capable mother and you can deal with this in a loving, competent manner. Tell yourself it several times a day, in the mirror if you can bear to, and especially when she starts panicking herself.

The minute I hear my inner mind chatter saying 'help! I can't do this', it all goes to pot. But simply taking a breath and saying 'I can do this because I am an amazing mum' (yes, I really do tell myself that!) Makes a huge change in the atmosphere and my feelings of strength and capability. It doesn't fix things right away, but it takes some of the panic out of the situation (ie. My own) and that leaves safe space for my DD to work through her own without fearing for the effect on me as well.

I love Naomi Aldort's SALVE approach - have you read about that? It's in Raising our Children, Raising Ourselves.

hellymelly, I just wanted to say that you're not alone. You could be writing about my DS. Although I put a lot of his behaviour being made worse by 3 big changes since last year - a new baby sister, now a toddler, moving house and starting school! His behaviour at school was exemplary apparently and he kept all the hitting, shouting at me.

I would definitely agree with others who have said forget the carrot and the stick especially for this kind of personality. It is too painful for my son and I feel really uncomfortable with the kind of discipline that advocates taking the child's favourite toy or that asks them to sit on a step, isolated and unable to cope with their emotions.

I think Flamingo has some superb advice.

I am really taking on board the advice you've all given. I think I have slightly lost my way with my mothering. When the dds were very small I didn't pay any attention to what anybody else thought I should be doing, I just followed my instincts and felt fine most of the time, with some reassessments here and there. However when my older dd had her bad patch at 5, and went from a sunny confident little girl to a sad, very anxious, miserable child with no confidence it was such a shock that I feel I've been floundering since and have listened to much to conventional wisdom and not enough to my own dds and my heart. Added to that I've had thyroid problems which have made me exhausted and more likely to shout rather than be patient. I talked to DH about it last night (after leaving a post that went awol into cyberspace!) and I won't be taking toys away or punishing dd, instead I am going to try and stay really calm. Firm where I have to be, on hitting etc, but not shouty and I am going to really work on helping her around her anger, and listening to her more.
I think, as you have all said, who have similar children, that the carrot and stick approach is detrimental, and part of her unhappiness in her class has been that they use that approach quite strongly. (ironically she would have been far happier in the reception class of the school we had to take DD1 out of in year 1, as the teacher there doesn't take that approach at all, and really is fantastic, but we couldn't have them in two different schools, due to the logistics and dd1 really wanting her sister with her when she tried school again). I feel I have more of an insight into how she is feeling, and I feel more comfortable with this new approach than the old one which made me come downstairs and cry after bedtimes. I am so grateful for the kind and measured advice you have all given here so far.

My daughter (4) has similar tantrums. I recommend the book Tears and tantrums by Aletha Solter, who comes from a position of maximum compassion, and I'm going to check out the other books mentioned on this thread. Love what Flamingo is saying.
Now it may be coincidence but there has been a dramatic improvement in DDs's behaviour over the last 48 hours since I have cut out added sugar from her diet. I don't know if we're going to continue with the experiment but it may be something to try which may help your daughter cope?

Hmm- sugar, yes, we had been thinking that she seems far worse when the slump hits after having sugar. I will have a look on amazon for the tears and tantrums book now.

I am so thankful to have come to this thread. My five year old dd has at least one tantrum a day. We are actually taken her to be looked for ADHD tomorrow. Her level of energy and activity is more than I have ever seen in my three older children.
Both my husband and myself have been in hospital several times this year. She is especially attached to her father, and I wonder what affect these emergency hospitalisations have had on her.
Helly, I feel like a failure too, as I am a social worker and meant to understand and cope with these things :(

I really get the feeling of failure but please ladies remember to be fair to yourselves! We are only human- sometimes I know I can be the best possible parent all day and deal with really difficult behaviours brilliantly, and them lose it at bed time! This then makes me feel a complete failure but in reality we're making progress with our parenting- the 9/10 times we get it right will do so much good. Progress is attainable, perfection isn't.

Booooo! I reckon if you sort out the sleeping you will have sorted quite a lot. Not sure how you do this, slowly slowly catchy monkey, but being overtired and a bit poorly can't be a recipe for success. DS is 5 and rarely tantrums during the normal scheme of things, but I saw some recently when he was overtired and it wasn't pretty- like a different child circa 2 years ago. There were other tensions there too at the time but generally for him it is a combo of stress and tiredness.