Five year old tantrums, at my wits end.

[hellymelly]

Really upset about this so please don't be too brutal, am feeling a failure as a parent at the moment.
Anyway,background is: My dd (5 and a bit) has been tantrummy all along. One awful phase when her older sister (7) was five and miserable at school. Then dd was having three or more a day, thankfully as things got better and my older dd happy again, the tantrums eased up.
Started reception last September and hasn't been truly happy in school, good and bad patches but at one point she was having night terrors/ tantrums almost every night. They got better but she still has them when she is overtired.
She thought she would still have her teacher this coming year, she was very attatched to her, but suddenly at the end of term her teacher left , having been very unhappy apparently in the post. Dd was shocked and really upset, she saw her teacher crying and was very distressed about it. (I think part of the reason she wasn't happy last year was that she was possibly picking up on the tensions of her teacher being unhappy.)
Anyway she has been a nightmare this holiday, lots and lots of huge meltdown tantrums, she throws things, sometimes hits me, will not give in even though I have confiscated toys and taken her out of cafes etc. I have taken toys to the charity shop too. It is making her older sister miserable as it has disrupted so many days (they always last at least an hour, often longer). The night terror/tantrums are even worse, she shouts "Don't touch me" "no Mummy no" etc at full volume when DH has to carry her downstairs to get her to calm down. Honestly I am amazed a neighbour hasn't called the police because it sounds horrendous. She bites and scratches, hits and kicks, but if we try leaving her in bed she kicks the walls and makes so much noise it wakes her sister and probably next door too.
I really don't know how to handle it. Today we had a Sunday lunch out ruined as she had a meltdown over something tiny, which lasted two hours. She needed a wee and some food but wouldn't have either, so it all dragged on, DH took her to the car, I sat and ate with dd1, then we all went home again with her shouting in the car still, nothing we said made any difference. She hit me several times really hard too.
She hasn't been completely well, and is complaining of tummy aches (back to GP tomorrow) and is really overtired as she has also become really hard to get to sleep- i cuddle with her but it takes ages and then as soon as I get up to leave the room and have supper she wakes again and won't settle, so she's losing sleep every night. (we co sleep, so she's not alone all night).
I don't know what to do. She doesn't seem happy, she is losing out on fun things , and her sister is really getting to resent her.
She is a darling when not angry , really kind and lovely, funny, friendly, very affectionate and sweet.

Ok, i know every child is different.
But i'd go back to basics.
1; Deal with her bad day behavior, it is unexceptable that she would hit, shout ect at you, you are the grown up, naughty corner, naughty step for a minute every year of her age, ie 5 years equals 5 minutes. Do not budge on this! You are not being mean, but sending her a strong message!
You and your dh must be consistant! The threat of the naughty corner will eventually work.
2: Have a really good wind down for bed, Bath, story, a little chat, bedtime lighting in the room, then night night darling.
Also i have also got my dd favourite toy to talk to her( mummy doing my best doggy voice) and asked her whats wrong with school, it was amazing what troubles she'd tell.
3.Do not reward bad behavior if your dd is being naughty she will have to sit in the naughty corner whilest you have a nice time with your other daughter who is being good, where would she rather be, in the corner or joining in the fun?

I may be teaching you to suck eggs, but that how i'd deal with it.x

I think naughty corner type things would be really hard to implement with dd- she would refuse to stay there for a start, so it would mean more roaring head to head battles which I am keen to avoid.
I do try for a calm wind-down routine at bedtime, they have a bath most nights, storytime, and then lights out- I cuddle in with them and dd1 falls asleep right away, while dd2 takes about an hour...(used to be the other way round).
The past few days I haven't used any sort of threats at all, no toys taken away etc. I have told her off when she has been scrapping with her sister etc, but I have tried to stay as calm as possible and to be sympathetic. She has been nicer to be with, less combatative and more her old self (she is, in spite of the meltdowns, a very kind little girl, her teacher has commented on her kindness and sensitivity towards others in the class ). We will see how this pans out but certainly the house has been a bit more harmonious for the last two or three days.

Oh that's good news OP! Stick with your instincts if you think naughty corner not working I believe you're right. It obviously works for many parents, but having failed to get anywhere with this approach for 5 years abd then having read about different approaches for different children I will not use isolating time outs again with my ds. And I've told him this and he's agreed that this is right and in fact have had hardly any full scale tantrums since this new tactic adopted!. And believe me I'm no push over! It's not that I don't have persistence to implement time out.

I am usually very much in Molly's corner with the strictness, but when a five year old is behaving that appallingly in public, it isn't because they want to, so obviously cannot do much to help it.

Ds2 has got better recently, but can still have epic tantrums, and he's six. What helps is to verbalise a list of things that might be upsetting him, ie are you cross abut the ice cream? Is that because you didn't get the one you wanted or because you thought I hadn't listened to you? Do you understand that the shop didn't have the one you asked for? So what do you think I should have done?

Etc. it sounds really panders but he still doesn't get his own way, he just has a better explanation about my decisions and actions.

Colditz- that's pretty much what I have been doing this week, that is what I meant by being sympathetic . I used to be like that with dd all the time, but my patience had worn thin and I had started just getting really annoyed as soon as she started to play up, which I can see now has simply fuelled her anger and frustration and made the whole house less happy. (not the result I was aiming for!!) Today dd1 wasn't listening and we were in a rush to visit my Mum who is in hospital, after asking her several times to do something I started to get cross, and even though I didn't shout, dd2 got upset and asked me to stop. I think I have underestimated how sensitive she is to feelings and atmosphere and that my short fuse (due to chronic exhaustion ) has been very upsetting for her. Certainly she has been less tricky and happier this week, and there have been less tantrums and more willingness to be helpful .

Oh and I agree she really can't control it at times. She fell through the roundabout in the playground last weekend, and had a fright, although not hurt her pride was hurt a bit as she was with bigger girls. She then started to have a tantrum on the grass which she knew made her look even sillier but she couldn't stop. I sat next to her and tried to be comforting without injuring her pride further and she then could turn it around. She is a very digified child and hates to feel vulnerable or look silly.

*dignified not digified.

Just to update- I've been sticking to the new approach, no taking away of toys, no shouting, just being very calm and kind and she has been so much better. Last night she folded and put away some clothes that were on the bed, and hung up a school dress that had fallen, all without me knowing. She has been more affectionate and much less angry. Has helped that she has gone back to school and likes her new teacher, I think she was very worried about going back without her old teacher. She is not overjoyed to be back but is fine. I am so grateful for the help and advice on this thread because it has made such a difference. I feel much happier too, not confiscating a five-year-old's teddy...
to all you posters.

That's wonderful, helly! Thank you so much for coming back to let us know :)

No, thank you. Your advice was really helpful. I have bought "angry Arthur"- very touching. She won't let me read it to her yet, she feels very bothered by her anger and is embarrassed by it when calm. We've had a couple of night terrors this week , prompted by some worries at school, but she has been a lot better overall.