Transition from BF on demand to "routine", how did you do it?

[GailTheGoldfish]

Beautiful DD is almost a month old (8lb at birth and perfectly healthy and happy from what I can tell!) so I am asking this in advance of the actual transition but would be interested to hear other's experiences. I am FOD as advised by midwives, HVs etc but am struggling to reconcile this approach with what I am reading in books, particularly Tracey Hogg's books. The Baby Whisperer books seem to say that even newborns could be on a flexible routine but I don't see how,I am keeping a log of feeds and sleep and while there may be some similarities in days I cannot see how I could get her into a 4 hour feed sleep pattern like it says in the book. I am happy to be guided by DD at the moment but can't help thinking there will come a point when we do need to introduce some kind of pattern and structure to the day. If you have done this, how? And when?

Throw the books away and just feed on demand!

I used to keep a log of feeds and sleeps and a pattern did develop after about 12 weeks or so but to be honest it will just keep changing. At 12 weeks mine started having a last feed at 6pm and slept through to 8am! That lasted all of 2 months and then she started having 2 night feeds and staying up till 10pm. A log helps a bit as you can see when is a good time to go out without having to feed baby while out but to be honest things just keep chaning all the time.

Thanks Chloe, a few people have said this to me. Perhaps I am being a bit too 'academic' about it and need to relax! How old is she now?

I agree with throwing the books out! :) DH actually did throw out the baby whisperer book as he said it just made him feel bad.

My DD only started to have anything resembling a consistent routine when she was well established on 3 solid meals a day (so 7-8 months old) as mealtimes gave us some structure to the day. And as she got a little older still, her naps became more predictable too and now her day is fairly structured but flexible.

Prior to that, I did notice some patterns from about 3 months old, but they never stayed the same for long. She's also never had anything approaching a 4 hour feed/sleep schedule (2 hours maybe, but she still eats very regularly!). 4 hours is a long time for anyone, especially a little baby, to go without a drink or a snack.

Sounds like you are doing great if your DD is happy and healthy :)

I nudged mine towards a routine. It basically involved trying other things to settle them if they were looking for a feed within, say, 2 hours of a good feed and waking them during the day if they went more than, I don't know, 4 hours? No books involved.

All very relaxed - just a case of not immediately feeding in order to settle them but seeing if something else worked. If nothing else settled them, they got fed.

I don't think I tried that hard at 1 month old though.

Yes it does sound like you are doing great, just keep going with the feeding on demand, wanderingalbatross said it perfectly that you get more of a routine when they are on 3 meals a day.

My little girl is now 2, she not that keen on food when we first started weaning her at 6 months, but by 1 year she was on 3 meals a day and I had given up breastfeeding at 10 months and started with bottles on demand but by age 1 she was just having 3 bottles a day (one mid morning, one mid afternoon and 1 before bed, along with the 3 meals a day). I think just go with the flow at the begining and they will just fall into their own routine as they get older. My toddler has recently stopped napping so we now have a new routine that her body has developed, early wake up and early to bed with a 4 o clock dinner, where it used to be a 6 o clock dinner. Just when you think you have it sorted they change again! Oh well it keeps it interesting.....

Thanks wanderingalbatross, I read the book while I was pregnant and thought it sounded sensible but now DD is actually here it feels like a work of fiction! Dont blame your DH! What you say about mealtimes is interesting, I have also read that having a bath/ bedtime at the same time can help. I guess no one tells babies that they are expected to conform to a schedule before they arrive!

Argh, those damn books! Like others say, chuck em out. A baby will give feeding signals when he/she wants a feed. What are mothers to do? Say "No, sorry, it's not time yet" - a baby can't really go 4 hrs with no subsistence . All babies are different, and have different requirements. At about 12 weeks it suddenly becomes easier, and they do develop a pattern - my 12wo wakes at 6.30, has one feed, then another about an hour later then off to sleep. I think it's much easier just to go with the flow at this stage and before - don't put pressure on yourself with these books - they are just the opinion of one person who happens to have managed to get their method published. Who says they are right???

Just relax and enjoy:)

Soupdragon, the settling in ways other than feeding is something I will need to look at in time, she always wants milk when she wakes and that can sometimes mean a half hour sleep, feed, another half hour sleep etc. but then sometimes she will sleep for four hours without stirring. I have started trying to put her in the basket while she is dropping off and keeping my hands on her, shhhing etc. she isn't buying it yet but I will persevere! She is still so tiny so all in good time I guess!

i'd second keeping a log. FOD and soon she'll develop a routine without you even noticing. my 3 did at about 3 months but i only noticed when i wrote it down otherwise i just felt like i was feeding 24/7

AdiVic, I have a god friend who is newly pg who is adamant that when her baby cries at night she will leave it I have told her this is nonsense for all the reasons you say and I agree that being responsive to your baby's needs is the priority.

Thank you all, I feel much better after reading your replies!

I thought exactly the same when I read the books while pg, but DD has other ideas ;) She hates sleep and loves to eat, so we muddle through.

I started a fixed-time bath/bedtime routine when DD was 3 months old. Now she is 14 months old, and she still resists going to bed. So it's not the magic sleep fix that i was led to believe! We have mostly given up on the set bedtime, and now just put her to bed when she seems tired.

If there is one thing I'll change with number 2, it's worrying so much about what baby and I 'should' be doing, and instead just go with what works for us.

my ds also started more of a recognisable pattern himself at about 10-12 weeks, I did start out making a log but often forgot so possibly earlier... if you cant throw the book away, give it to someone else to look after and revist throw away in a few months....

sorry posted too quickly....sounds like your doing well - though bath didn't work for my ds woke him up! we did in the mornings instead!

Gailthegoldfish - ha ha, who could leave a baby crying all night:) I think she's in for a shock! Poor girl;)

Until baby is around a couple of months old, I don't think there's much point as they feed and sleep little and often. I noticed a bit of a routine around 3 months when they get more alert and interested in what's going on.

I'd chuck any books out, it will just make you get frustrated that your baby doesn't fit in to what their 'supposed' to be doing. This baby stage is over so quickly, it's just best going with the flow.

The only thing I did with my children around 4/5 months was to have a bed time routine, bath etc about 7 ish in the night, and put them to sleep in bed. A 'proper' routine seemed to stem from this.

Honestly this stage is over so so quickly, they'll soon be in a routine for the rest of their lives with school runs etc so make the most of being free and easy while you can.

I saw the title and thought you would be talking about a much older baby!

I wouldn't even attempt to consider a routine until about 6 weeks at the very earliest. This is when your milk supply should start to settle down a bit to match the needs of your baby.

With routine it's really about seeing what works for both of you (and your family). If you find patterns emerging with awake and nap times then you can work on those, or if you find that your baby naturally starts to have a long stretch of sleep from say 8 or 9pm then you could encourage that as bedtime (bath, jammies, dark room etc). Some babies respond well to this, others don't, you'll soon find out. And of course, what works for a week might well stop working the next week.

Having thrown all the books out with DS1, I found that DS2 was much more amenable to a routine and probably would have responded well to me being more structured with him.

It sounds like you and your baby are doing really well, and if you don't have a really pressing need to do things differently, I really really wouldn't bother trying to change things.

These books, even Baby Whisperer, are I think very unrealistic about how long babies should go between feeds, and both BW and GF really aren't very pro-breastfeeding' although Tracy Hogg manages to hide it better. I won't go on about it.... but BW makes such a big deal about 'reading' your baby and listening to their cues, which sounds lovely and humane! - and then says that if your baby sounds like they are crying because they are hungry but it isn't 'time? for their next feed, then they can't possibly be hungry so don't feed them. So the message is 'respond to their needs except when it doesn't fit into this schedule'. Right oh.

So yes, throw the books out! Babies will find their 'routine' once they are ready. you can try and force them to change their behaviour but it will involve stress to the mother and baby and a lot of screaming - things may change, but then you won't know anyway if that's down to your efforts or because they were reaching a new stage anyway.

I kind of nudged towards a routine from about 8 weeks in that if ds hadn't asked for a feed after 2.5 hours I offered one, so we got into a pattern of feeding every 2.5 hours in the day - obviously if he asked for a feed after 1 or 2 hours though I fed him!

The baby whisperer thing of not feeding before a nap is ridiculous though - how can you expect a baby to go to sleep on an empty stomach? Some do but most won't, they are designed to fall asleep nice and snug and full.

My 5 months we had more of a sleep routine (he needed a nap every 3 hours) and feeds fell in around sleeps - basically a feed before and after every sleep. Then once he was on 3 meals a day the routine became even more fixed.

From the age of about 9 months to now (2 years) he has been completely routine driven - every meal and sleep at exactly the same time every day Most small children thrive on routine. But I don't think this applies to little babies - they need to eat and sleep when their bodies tell them to.

Thanks so much all of you (packs up books and heads to charity shop!)

Gail, don't throw the books out yet, even if you don't opt to persevere with the routines you'll find them really useful when it comes to weaning etc when baby is a bit older.

BUT IME it was worth persevering with the BW's advice - my babies were really SOOOO settled and happy when they had structure and regular sleeps. Both mine slept through from 7-7 from 3 months on the BW routine, and followed with really good napping routines throughout babyhood/toddlerhood. From what I read on here, those who tell you to 'go with the flow' seem to also to have sleep issues later down the track (Judgemental alert!)

If you're an 'academic' type it will probably suit you to a tee to have some structure in your day too.

BW isn't perfect though. e.g. She advises a 4 hour routine for babies older than 4 months old. While I followed BW I've found with my two kids that 3.5 hours at 4 months is far more realistic. At one month old, aim for spacing feeds at 2.5 hours - 3 hours.

At one month, the way to transition to a routine is to always begin your routine at the same time every day, say 7am. Always start at 7, whether baby fed last fed at 5am or 3am or midnight. That way the pattern will begin to emerge by itself.

Another way to transition is to gently wake (or rouse) your baby from daytime sleeps after 1.5 hours. No more than 2 hours at a time. Otherwise, day time sleep will rob night sleep. Rouse baby by taking off their blanket or opening the curtains and making 'daytime' noises around their cot.

HTH.

I fed on demand (she was bottle fed from 3 weeks) and introduced more of a routine once weaning was established and she was on 3 meals a day. Go with your baby x

It won't seem like it so early on but your baby will need feeding less when they're a bit older and have a bigger tummy. They fall into their own routine if you watch for it - just keep doing what you're doing and then watch for the patterns, when the baby usually naps etc. The only routine I've had with my 2 is to have something different about bed at night (bath, darkness, crib) as opposed to daytime naps. I have had no sleep problems "down the line" with my 5 year old at all, contrary to what has been suggested.

With all of my 3 I started nudging towards a routine from about 1 month old - so where you are now. They were all exclusively BF. Funnily enough I didn't really start by thinking about feeds but about naps. I found with all my 3 that they all really needed to go back to sleep at this age within about 2 hrs of waking, so assuming we started the day at 7am ish (as per books!) then I would be aiming to put them down for a nap at 9am ish. I started not just to let them sleep as long as they wanted (not an easy concept as one always feels it's best not to wake a sleeping baby!), but in the morning would wake after about an hour (so 10am ish) and feed, then back to bed 12ish - longer sleep usually so wake about 2pm ish and feed, then shorter afternoon sleep at 4ish (maybe in sling or pram is out) feed before bath at 6pm, feed again after bath at 7pm ish then bed (and hope for the best!).

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that rather than focusing on the feed times it was the nap times that seemed to define my days and once the naps fell into place (very quickly once I started being consistent and watching sleep cues) then the feeds naturally fell into place around that and I also found that their nighttime sleeping improved dramatically too (although that might have been co-incidental as they approached the more stable 6 week stage).

8 week growth spurt.... I wouldn't try to do anything other than FOD until you're through that!

I've done BW(ish) with both of mine. I took the approach that she was suggesting a routine & not a schedule & just tried to do the EASY thing in the right order (i.e. not feeding to sleep), rather than worrying too much about the timings. I logged what they did & found they kind of fell into a 3-ish, then 4-ish hr thing all by themselves

I found the babywhisperer forums really useful - lots of people have shared their routines at various ages.

I wouldn't try and enforce for a routine for feeding to be honest. There is too much that can change. How often they need to feed is dependent on growth spurts, the weather, if they got distracted during the last feed... They will need to feed much more often when it's hot weather. But I do think they will gradually fall into a routine of their own. I would second whoever said to try and keep nap times consistent if you can and then feeding will fall in naturally around that. But it is very baby dependent. DS never had a regular nap time til 16 months and he would only ever sleep on me no matter what we tried. DD is happiest falling asleep alone in her cot or buggy (something DS never did) and has a one hour nap around 9 and then a 2-3 hour nap around midday. She's 5.5 months and has done this for a couple of months now. I never tried to impose a routine because DS was such an anti routine baby, but DD has made her own.