Another thread/help needed re DDs poor behaviour (6yrs old, just)

[PavlovtheCat]

Sorry if you read my other one which in reality was highlighting bad behaviour really, just my frustration with her clumsiness.

Even now it is not bad behaviour in that she is being mean, or rude, or angry. She is just refusing to listen, to follow boundaries and feels like she is able to do as she pleases, smiles and says 'how cute am i? and thinks it makes it ok.

background. a few late nights, she is simply refusing to go to sleep despite having a good bedtime routine (broken a couple of times). DH is in america since middle of the week and she misses him. However, this is not new behaviour, there is just more of it, and I am finding it harder to manage completely on my own i guess.

Did not go to sleep last night until 9:15pm in the end, at the threat of if she did not go to sleep we would not be able to go to see my good friend/children's godmother and her son who both my children adore, today. She went to sleep.

Tomorrow we are going on a picnic with her dance class, and yesterday in sainsburys I bought some mini sausages (and other stuff) for the picnic. I also bought her a pleated skirt aged 6. She is in between 5-6 size so not sure if it fitted/no changing rooms avail to try on, and a pack of polo shirts.

This morning, the children got up before me, after being in my bed with me since aroun 5am, went to DDs bedroom and watched a video, which I was ok with. They were playing nicely. DD came up with a polo shirt, and her pleated skirt on. I said they look lovely, the skirt looks too big, you have not taken the tag off it have you (she has a tendancy to snap them off immediately, and has been told many times to wait until i know it fits before doing this, if for example DH buys her a treat not not tried on first). She has snapped the tags off. I have told her to find the tags. She has taken the skirt off, told to put it back where she got it, on the hallway dresser with the other stuff.

I have got up, and asked her where the skirt and tag is, she cannot find either in her complete pit of a bedroom. I opened the fridge to get milk for coffee to find a pack of sausages missing (i bought two packs). I ask her where they are, she has had a 'picnic' with DS and the bears and eaten most of the pack, in her bedroom. She knows not to go into the kitchen (door is shut at night) without me and only allowed in there to eat food or get a drink when I am up (another thread about her and DH mess and my inability to cope meant i made some places out of bounds officially by shutting doors).

I am so cross. Yes I know these are not the crimes of the century and in the grand scheme of things she is not poorly behaved, but this type of behaviour is increasing, is quite new (few months) and to be honest I have no idea how to address it.

Step/time out does not work anymore (not sure if ever did really). tried reward charts for encouraging certain behaviour, only works for the behaviours/actions she finds easy to change - cleaning teeth, even worked for going to bed (will bring it back in) but not for other things like tidying room.

So I have told her that because she has lost her skirt and the tag and because she went into the kitchen and took picnic food without asking we are now not going to her godmothers house. Before the sanction she was 'i am very sorry' (she always is afterwards and seems genuine) but after the sanction, her reaction was initially to scream and shout and shut her bedroom door telling me and DS we can't go in. Now she is calm again and does not seem bothered. I think this is mostly because she thinks I will change my mind.

What should I do? what might I be doing wrong? should I cancel the trip like I have said? I feel there needs to be some bigger sanction for this continued ignoring, but, I was really looking forward to seeing my friend, and it is not fair on DS (altough 2.5 so wont be bothered either way) and it now means I am stuck at home with them. I was going to tidy DDs bedroom with her.

Or. Should I cancel the picnic instead? But she has been really looking forward to that and I am not sure that it is seriouness enough to warrant that, but then think, maybe it is.

toddler years were sooo simple compared to this!

You have told her the outing is cancelled. Do not go back on that.

If you make the threat you must follow through. Always.

ok. that is what i think.

So, if I were to do things differently. was that a mean thing to do?

Was what a mean thing to do?

cancelling te trip. I mean, I cancelled it, but, was it a bit dramatic? i wont go back on it now, but if this happens again i want to try to get the sanction right and not be ott with it.

Rule 1: Never cancel anything that YOU are looking forward to!

If in the heat of the moment I cancel something that I didn't really want to cancel then I give them a chance to earn it back

She sounds very similar to my ds2 (also just 6 funnily enough )

Possibly a bit ott seeing as she thought that going-to-sleep ensured the godmother trip would happen. However I know how hard it is to remain calm when provoked by bad behaviour, and you do need to make her see that her behaviour has consequences, and she does seem to think she is the boss.

do you often say something and do something else?

I do agree that you must always follow through but did you not think about DS2 missing out/you needing a change of view before you chose to cancel the outing to godparent?

wrt new clothes and tags, train yourself to make stuff inaccessible (take bag into your bedroom/leave in the car or whatever) to avoid tag removal, put a lock on the fridge or gate the doorway

you need to analyse your behaviour closely eg the chopping and changing of your mind gives out mixed messages, or if the punishments are enormous or too far away in time (you were awful last night, now we're not going to x x x on Monday) then it's confusing

massive x posts

wallace i have considered allowing her to earn the trip back. Oh I don't know. She still has not found her skirt. I could ask her to keep looking for it and the tag and if she finds it we could go. Not sure what else I could get her trust her to do. It must be an age thing then. I remember you from the post natal thread! wow that has gone fast!

It is really hard because she does not do anything out of bad intentions iyswim. she is a lovely, empathic, kind gentle happy girl. she just does not do what she is asked. i feel like a bad mother constantly nagging her.

raisin i don't normally change my mind. I don't usually get to the point of having to enforce such huge punishments. Once or twice I have, and once, I did what wallace said and she earned her treat back as I had shot myself in the foot. that was a while ago.

I try to be consistent, and when DH is here we back each other up (even though we do not always agree). If it is a big problem, i or DH try not to make quick decisions about how to handle it but send her to her room to consider what to do next, and then talk to each other if we are both around. Always make any sanctions immediate (as you say not several days later) and try not to shoot myself in the foot by for example removing tv/dvd prilvages too easily. Problem is most sanctions she is not bothered by. I am sure I am not always consistent.

Any suggestions for what sanctions could work in this type of situation in future? when there seems nowhere to go with it? I am sure it will come up again.

raisin i spoke to their godmother last night about the sleep thing as she called to discuss what we would do today. she was fully aware of the fact I was having trouble and had told DD if she did not sleep we would not be coming up, and having gone through this phase herself with her now 9yr old she was very supportive of that. We agreed to meet in the week, if it did not happen today, so it was not a hugely rash decision in that i had already considered it for another problem. But, i agree I did not fully think it through this time for this behaviour today.

DD has taken her set of paints bought by her other godmother (they were in her art box, which is in the kitchen, i cannot lift it to put it away, but she should not be in the kitchen...) and i have just been in her room to find that her and DS have been painting, with a brush and fingers, and there is bright pink paint all over her luckily already filthy and old cream carpet, over herself, DS.

DD knows fully that she is not allowed paint anywhere except the kitchen table, with me or DH supervising her. Since an incident a while ago where she took a biro and drew hearts over my cream leather office chair in my bedroom, all pens, pencils, crayons are out of bounds and have been removed from her unless she has supervision. (god knows how she always manages to find them though but I am still forever taking something off her!). So it is not like she does not know the rules. She most certainly is aware of no paint in her bedroom and I asked her that 'where must you use your paints?' 'at the kitchen table' so why did you use them in your bedroom 'because i wanted to make you a pitcure' did not buy it that time.

Went into her bedroom to fully assess the mess and there is a two pint of milk in there! (did not notice it missing as it is their blue milk, i use red, and I have not given them brekky on account of them eating 15 mini sausages between them).

And then! DS picks up the very large fairy washing powder in the kitchen while I am making another coffee and the bottom falls open (not his fault, it was damp i think), there is mess. DD comes in, i sit on a chair and she sits on my lap crying. I explain to her how I am sad and the reasons, that we are not going to godmothers today (she is very upset about that) and why not. I explain that I want to see 3 things happen today and if those things happen then she can go to the picnic tomorrow. if any of those things do not happen she will not be going (do what she is told/not do things she knows she is not allowed to do, help me tidy her room and clean up the mess she has made, be asleep by 8pm. not reading, playing but actually asleep). She is still upset, she says sorry, i say i know she is, and we hug. then she gets down, walks over to the washing powder spillage and says 'whats this?' i tell her and then tell DS to get his foot out of it. DD then puts her foot into it and starts to swirl it around! FFS! not 30 seconds after our conversation.

I am going to put it down to tiredness . I have spoken to my friend and she thinks it is the right thing to do, although like me disappointed i can't come up. She told me to call her if I need to sound off/wind down.

Oh what a nightmare.

Does dh go away often ? Do you ever get a break ? Cos i think you deserve one

he is away for two weeks working at a festival run by his brother. he goes on this foreign trip once a year (although he will have as much fun as work as he is going to hawaii after the work is done for a few days ).

When at home he works as a trainee chef. so, while he is not away all the time he works a lot of evenings/weekends.

I don't really get much of break no. I work myself (on annual leave for two weeks though) and have had some health issues (torn vertebral lumbar disc) which I think have not helped with DD playing up. I cant move as fast to start with!

Deserve a break or not. I won't get one. When he comes back he will be jetlagged, then we will both be back to work. there is no time for me to take time out.

I think you are right to sort her behaviour out now. I know we are fairly strict but it does make for an easier life for everyone. I would have cancelled the picnic. (I realise it was a split second decision). I would also have made her put the paints in the bin. That would prevent that happening again. I find instant punishment related to the crime works best.

jubilee I have taken the paints away from her for a week. not as strict as you but they were not bought by me so i don't really feel able to throw them away. I was tempted/very close to doing it though

It's not easy, is it. We have three boys, one with ADHD and have definitely found the "zero tolerance" approach to work best for us.

OK, I think I have the cause of the increased refusal to listen, being a general uncontrollable pain. She now has a fever, very flushed and looks unwell! She is ok in herself now actually, calmed down a little (panics as she has left them unattended for a short while). Not that this excuses the general increase in her misbehaving, but I feel this certainly explains the sudden sharp increase in disobedience. She always goes a bit 'wild' when she is about to come down with something. In fact thinking back the last time I posted about her bad behaviour was when she got chicken pox spots the following day! I should know the signs by now.

But, it is also a lesson learnt from me. I need to be much more zero tolerance, as DS will learn from how I handle these situations now. If he sees DDgetting away with lots he will just presume the same from younger.

Just a thought - my dd is much the same age ( 6 in a few weeks).

Right now she has tucked herself up in the sofa for a nap. She's absolutely exhausted after a long hard year 1 while so young in the year.

OP I don't think your dd's behaviour is so bad.

I don't think you should have cancelled the trip. Maybe you need to spend some time babying her - try a different tack? She may be your oldest but she's still very little

Pavlov, I really don't think y can expect a six year old to go to sleep just because you have said so. You cannot influence the exact point that her pineal gland releases the melatonin into her system! And makes her sleep, and neither can she. You can't punish her not having the bodily function y want her to have. My children are six and nine and neither are ever asleep by eight, it's rather early for school aged children. Reading and quiet in bed is what to aim for. She can't make herself sleep!

colditz yes i get your point, about not being able to force her to sleep. Maybe if I give her some medised So she needs to be very quiet then she normally/usually is asleep by 8pm. always has been between 7:30-8pm. please dont tell me i have to put her to bed later? she gets up so early. And she is very tired. She does not even try to sleep. She reads, plays, brings me my flipflops or glasses, takes a verrrry long poo, needs a drink, needs something to eat, is scared, wants to tell me a joke... But. her bedroom has been an absolute pit, i clean, it is a pit, i clean...and so it goes. So...I (with her help) have absolutely gutted it this afternoon, cleaned it, sought throw old toys, re-organised the toys she is keeping, moved her bed to where it used to be (i wondered if that has not helped her sleep as we changed it to a different position, which she had wanted). It is now sparkly clean and very very tidy. Maybe that will help. I can't sleep well in a messy room. I am sure she cant either.

bluecow i wish she would nap! tried that! She gets plenty of me/her time. of being 'babied'. When if DS naps we do something girly, make bead necklaces, I read her stories. I snuggle into bed with her for stories at bedtime if we get DS to bed first. I take her out shopping or swimming or other nice stuff when DH is not working. I have 1.5 days with DS in the week that I dont have with DD, so try really hard to ensure we have mummy/DD time. I tell her how much i love her every day, lots a day, make a point of cuddling her on her own.

BUT. in the last few months this has been much much hard for me to do due to lumbar disc issues which have had me unable to do much, and being messed up on medication while trying to sort it out. It HAS been hard on her, and she had shown a sense of wanting/feeling she needs to 'look after me'. And also tough for her, she had chicken pox then broke her wrist. this last term has been all up in the air.

So, maybe I should do more to let her know she is still my baby. How do I do that?

I am actually glad we did not go out today. She now has a fever and we probably needed to sort her room out. She had played with the toys she forgot she had, and her and DS are now watching tarzan 2 while I have a break then going to do DSs room and tea. I have not been cross, we have actually had a good day. And now she can see how bad the pink paint on her floor is, i think she does understand that part of her behaviour at least.

Hi Pavlov just wanted to come on and express a bit of sympathy and maybe empathy as my DD (7) is quite a handful at times and I wanted to say you are not alone.

Although I do agree that it is important not to back down etc. I have also found after a few years of very challenging behaviour with my DD that a kind of 'zero tolerance' does not really work with MY DD. If it works with yours that is great.

Sometimes it helps not to set up situations where you cannot back down, because it is added stress on you.

I would just suggest that it might help you and her to try and work out why she does some of the stuff that you find so difficult (maybe you rightly find it difficult so I am not suggesting you are over sensitive but just to work out why she does stuff - e.g. is she trying to push your buttons to get attention/is it accidental etc etc).

YES, am working on all this with my DD! I am NO expert, make multiple mistakes, get really cross with my own DD. Posted all about her anger issues here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/1497641-DD-gets-very-angry-and-hates-to-be-told-she-cant-do-things-shes-7-any-helpful-advice-please

Pavlov, as I say - am no expert but just wanted to express solidarity, but here are some 'tips' and I will try and remind myself!! Cos no matter what I may say I am always making my own mistakes!

Never threaten anything you don't want to follow through.

Remember that 5 minutes of loss for a child can 'feel' as dramatic as losing the whole thing. EG my friend who is a teacher gives kids a 5 minute detention rather than the whole break time. They HATE losing those first 5 minutes AND she does not have to sit and supervise them for the whole break! So for your trip out you could have said we will get ready and sit for 10 minutes and arrange to meet later or whatever. In the end it worked out OK but just to have up your sleeve for next time! My DD does not understand money very well yet so the loss of a penny is as bad as the loss of a pound! I fine her a few pennies when she really drives me mad - for example saying something rude or hurtful and won't stop so I say OK, every time you say that you will lose 1p! She soon stops, and yes, I take those 1ps from her pocket money jar and give them to charity!

If your child can't be trusted with new clothes etc have an out of reach place to put them.

The fridge is harder - my child has little interest in sneaking food so no worries for me but maybe explain to your DD, what if those sausages had been raw instead of cooked, she might have got sick! Or you had needed them for dinner, etc. There are reasons why we as parents make rules, maybe knowing why would help her. Apologies if you did explain all this. Sometimes it might help a child to be put in a mum?s shoes! What is she had bought the food as a present for her dad and you had eaten it! Etc!

If you or DD get very angry count slowly to 6, it does take the edge off the anger!

I have had issues with my DD saying I hate you and someone recommended hand in hand website and I found this www.handinhandparenting.org/about-us which I think can help with all kinds of issues.

Would also highly recommend this book 'Raising Happy Children? Jan Parker and Jan Stimpson (Hodder & Stoughton).

I have found my DD?s anger is actually about a lot more than just being angry, she is upset, so what at first looks like frustration, then looks like anger and then like sadness. I am trying to work out why she feels all these emotions every time she does not get her own way at home! But she is very compliant and happy at school! Or maybe she is submerging her feelings at school and letting them fly out at home.

My dd has made hand prints in paint (on downstairs loo wall) and wrote on a wall and chair in pen, when she was the same age as your DD. So I hope just knowing that others have done this type of thing makes you feel a bit better.

Hope things improve. Oh sorry, long post!

Yikes, is 8pm early for school aged children to be asleep? My 9 and 7 head to bed at 7pm with lights out by 7.30. This slips if there's a good reason (particularly at the weekend) but if we don't do this as a rule then they're tired and grumpy and just don't enjoy life as much. Neither has asked for a later bedtime and it's pretty common amongst their friends for 7.30 to be the aim.

OP, my pair of DSs mixed together are your DD. One comes over as a bit thoughtless and agrees on behaviour and then does the exact opposite without it seeming to be on purpose (just doesn't connect the conversation and his behaviour). The other can be stubborn and will be sneaky to get his own way and does the too cute face to try to get out of it (it doesn't wash with me so he then gets sulky).

No advice other than trying to be consistent, set consequences you can live with, and keep the descriptions of undesirable behaviour separate from a view of the child. My children aren't thoughtless or stubborn or sneaky, but their actions sometimes are.

My ds is 6. I think you are expecting a lot if you want her to keep her bedroom tidy and find lost things independently. We tidy his room together or I tidy it. If he had lost something I would help him to find it. Sounds like the kids have easy access to stuff (paints etc) that then makes your life difficult. Also you are laying in bed while they are getting up to mischief.
Sorry if that sounds harsh but I think you could make your life easier with a bit more organisation.
In terms of her behaviour I would stop taking things away and try more praise/rewards. My ds has sen so I guess it's slightly different but we almost never punish. Just doesn't work. When we need to change an aspect of his behaviour we go overboard on praise and reward. It works.