is my DD out of control, or am I over-reacting?

[rhetorician]

she is 3.5. My DP thinks that her tantrums, refusal to do as she's told, obstinacy (tell her to stop doing something and she deliberately does it), her inability to exercise any kind of self-control is all her age and that she will grow out of it. I am beginning to think that we have a problem. Nothing that we do seems to have any effect. I told her when she came in that she couldn't watch tv, cue 30 minute meltdown accompanied by telling us not to talk to her, that she wants to go away ('nowhere', apparently), hysterical crying. I have put her in her room telling her firmly that I am happy to talk to her when she calms down. She is kicking and screaming like a banshee.

Totally normal. Just ignore her. The more you interact, the more she's getting attention.

When she calms down, give her some positive attention.

Ignore ignore ignore.

they get worse at 4

YA over-reacting.

She's 3. It's what they do.

It does get better.

You cannot talk to, or reason with toddlers when they get like this. You just have to sit it out, grit your teeth and carry on. Try to remember, she is not doing this to get AT you. She is not being deliberately mean to YOU, because she doesn't know how to, at this age. As I said, it will get better.

It's funny how the bad moments/days seem to far outweigh the good, right in the eye of the storm, isn't it ?

i think all those things can be part and parcel of being 3.5

but if you feel that it is more than that, or that her behaviour is more extreme then you might be onto something.
you know her better than anyone.

i spent a long time being told that "all 3/4/5/6" year olds did what ds1 was doing. which was true, but he was doing it more and more and actually was diagnosed with autism last year.
not suggesting your child has autism, but I know how frustrating it can be when you think there is a problem and people keep telling you there isn't.

I think it is normal, my son had unbelievably strong tantrums at that age. He doesn't do it any more.

It is really hard to deal with though.

I can't recommend How to Talk So Kids Will Listen highly enough. It cut the amount of tantrums we had to put up with by two thirds at least. Otherwise he just grew out of it.

ok, good to know. WOuld rather be over-reacting to be honest. She's still going - brief period of calm, followed by further TV request. Denied. And here we go again...

Your poor thing. It is SO wearing.

not sure - we've all had a bad week, she's a bit under the weather - this was probably because she was hungry. It's something that she only does at home. I have that book Humphrey and got it off the shelf to read. We've had this kind of thing on and off since baby sister was born, but the last few weeks had been so so much better - to the point where we couldn't really remember the last time this happened. Then she had a tummy bug and we were on holiday and off she goes again...few days OK, and off we go again.

You've just given a whole load of reasons in your last post - sister/tummy bug/holiday - which might explain things a bit?

yes, I suppose it does...but toddlers are so unreasonable! and her constitutional obstinacy is unaltered by circumstance

the thing about the help books is that sometimes we don't have the energy to deal with it properly.

yes, putting those things into practice all the time isn't easy - I suspect that they come more naturally to some people than to others. DD is much better when I actually focus on her - my personality is a kind of let them get on with it one, which really isn't what she needs right now. She keeps saying 'help me', with things that she doesn't really need help with but what she means is 'do this with me' :(

You could be writing about my DD who is 3.5 too! It's exhausting. Often it's about TV too. I have found that if I don't want her to watch TV I have to find something else for her to do, and do it with her and she is just about ok (pain in the arse if you have to do something else though).

Also I think she gets an idea in her head and if it doesn't happen in the way she thought it would - curtains. Sometimes it's just avoidable but sometimes she will be ok if I tell her and tell her (and tell her) exactly what's going to happen and when, and then keep asking her what's going to happen etc.

Sounds like she is maybe feeling a bit put out now her sister has come along, they need lots of reassurance at this age.

I think when we start preparing them for school and telling them they are big girls they have a bit of a wobble and not being mummies baby anymore, sounds like she has had a lot to deal with.

for you and [hugs] for both of you.

plantsitter - yes, I think she gets an idea and that's it - she's doing it come what may. I've found that telling her what's going to happen and then checking that she's got it helps a lot. Did that at bedtime - one lego car and then bed (although the definition of 'one' was stretched a bit - she kept taking bits off and putting others on, claiming that it wasn't finished!)

thanks all, you've been very kind - there really are terrible days, aren't there?

I do remember thinking when DD was 3 I wonder if it is possible to have a ferral child who could never be "tamed".
Door kicking,refusing everything.First sentences were "Don't want bed" "Don't like sleep".

Don't really want to tempt fate but she is currently a delightful teen

I vaguely remember everything had to be about giving her choices-Would you like to do your teeth or have story first before bed.

As long as she felt she was in control or not in conflict I think she was calmer

You have my sympathies, think it can be normal behaviour, but you and her dad need to set some rules on how you deal with her and her behaviour. Even when they are so ypung , if they spot a weakness they are on to it.

DS, 3.9, similar. Hard work innit? I think he's partly being three and partly reacting to having a baby sister (DD is 8 months). He is in behaviour boot camp at the moment - he gets 3 asks (get dressed, sit down, eat your lunch...) then I ignore him. Last week he went out only wearing underpants because he wouldn't get dressesed of sit still long enough for me to dress him. Sometimes in wonder if he does have adhd or something, but I don't really think so, as he does have moments of peace and calm. He has been off nursery with Chicken Pox this week and is actually responding to "mummy time" really well. (This is a relief, I nearly cried when I saw the spots and realised he wouldn't be at nursery this week).

BikeRunSki I know...sounds very similar. kilmuir we do have quite clear rules, but everyone in the house has been unwell and things have slid - I realized that we didn't keep a proper eye on her food intake today, plus it wasn't a nursery day so it was a bit unstructured. So there is definitely a great big beam in my eye...

3 year olds don't do change, whether big changes like a baby sister or little transitions throughout the day. This is completely natural.

It's best to prepare them for some arrangement like 'no TV' while you are still outside and in the throes of another activity, and not spring it on her as you arrive in when she is already grappling with the change of scene. Also, best to give a five minute warning, then even a two minute warning when it's time to change activity. Lots of cues about the future really help.

I thought 3 was the hardest age of all, with both of mine, though dd was the hardest because of ds being a baby at the time. She is also a delightful teen-so there may be hope.

And mathanxiety is spot on about the need to give them cues.

yes, cues very important. Sometimes forget. She is quite difficult to manage often - very obstinate, ignores you, will not answer questions or do as she is told. Or you have to stand there and repeat the instruction 6 or 7 times before she will do it. And on the other side of things, she is shy and not very confident with people she doesn't know. She and I are having a major battle of wills at the moment - lots of pushing me away and rejection. Neither of us are enjoying this phase...

Sometimes a more persuasive tack is to say 'Let's clear away a good few of these toys now so the room will be ready for X activity' , so you are doing it together to some extent instead of standing over her giving her an order that entails her either giving in or fighting against you. Getting down to the floor to get started together on something you want her to do can work better than looming over her.

Doing something boring and unappealing in turns makes a task seem more fun -- alternating putting blocks back in their box together for instance, or DD putting away the blue ones/rectangular ones, etc. while you do the red ones, with a race to see who can get most of the stragglers; high fives and ott enthusiasm plus a smile of encouragement along the way can help reinforce the message that co-operation can be fun and rewarding. Catching her being co-operative and complimenting that can make her very pleased with herself.

Three is a tricky age because they are so much more verbal and have a lot more stamina and reasoning ability but still so very immature in ego terms. They need a cheerleader/companion by their sides though.

Allowing choices between reasonable alternatives that you have pre-chosen can help boost self confidence and can also reduce the amount of fight she has in other areas. Helping her to develop positive autonomy as opposed to training her to do what she is told should be your aim here. Make boring and necessary tasks fun, reduce the direct orders, chat plenty about her thoughts and fancies what she likes and anjoys, finds pretty, whether she would like to be a bird and what that might be like, etc., help her to develop competence in self care such as dressing (allow lots of time and help a little without seeming impatient), hair care, washing herself in the bath (if she has one every day it doesn't matter if she misses behind her ears), encouraging wiping herself after a poo if she doesn't already do this, maybe with you checking afterwards. A 3 year old can be helped to see herself as an important part of a team if she gets to help set the table or clear away or assist in putting her clean clothes back in drawers, with you being patient and positive working alongside her.

There are lots of ways to reduce the power struggle element and still get what you want done. Try to see yourself as a teacher/coach. Focus on engaging her positively in the process and not on the results of her efforts for a few years.

math that is a brilliant post - thank you so much for taking the time to write it; lots of great tips. SOme of these things I do already, some of them I need to work on. I am not naturally a chatty high five type of person, but I can see its usefulness...