Raised cortisol levels, colic and CC

[DialMforMummy]

I have been wondering this for some time:
Some people/studies/whatever say that if you do CIO/CC, it raises cortisol levels and may have negative consequences on the child's brain development. Hence a number of parents opt no to go down that route for fear of damaging their children.
Now, when a LO cries a lot because of colic/reflux/wind/discomfort/whatever, surely there must be raised level of cortisol too, musn't there? Clearly, you'd expect a parent to try to comfort a colicky baby which you don't when you do CC or CIO, but nevertheless the child is still crying and still stressed.
So what's the difference on the brain, then? If none, then why concern yourself with doing CC?
(I am biased, I have done CC with DS1)
Not looking for a bun fight BTW, just curious what people's thoughts are.

I kind of agree with you, in that I think CC in the context of an otherwise loving and responsive relationship is prob ok and in any case people often do it to avert possibly worse things for the baby (eg constant crying because overtired, PND, marital breakup etc), but I suppose the thing is you can't avoid colic-based stress etc whereas obviously you can just choose not to do CC or similar.

my thoughts are that CC is a choice you make and colic is beyond your control. you do what you can to keep a baby from being stressed. as long as my babies have me or my OH right there to comfort them when they cry, i feel i am doing the best i can.

Because if I'm ill and someone is comforting me even if they can't take the illness away I'm a lot less stressed than if I'm upset and I know someone I love and depend on is nearby but ignoring me.

The point is that, presumably both situations can raise cortisol levels, one may last for weeks (colic or whatever) whereas the other a few days. So then in the grand scheme of things, a few days CC might not be as mentally damaging as a few weeks of colic-induced screaming fits, IFYWIM.

Is there any proof that colic crying raises cortisol levels in the same way? Just like was said up-thread pain is stressful but with a parent helping to moderate these feelings perhaps it lessens the cortisol release.

The philosophy behind attachment parenting is that small babies are unable to moderate their own feelings and that the primary care-giver has to provide this function for them. I guess you are doing this to a certain extent if comforting a colicy crying baby - they can hear/smell sense you. Whereas a baby who is being left to CIO doesn't have this subconsciously comforting presence. The babies in both instances are crying for different reasons - pain vs abandonment. I don't know the science of cortisol release and am speculating wildly - but in this brave new world I think the best thing we can arm our kids with is self-esteem and I will do anything to try and ensure this.

IMHO the evidence base relating controlled crying to raised cortisol levels and psychological damage is pretty thin. Almost none of it controls adequately for other environmental or biological factors that could be of relevance, and most of it posits a causal relationship when what they have actually found is a correlation.

I have also wondered the same thing as you about babies with severe illnesses and other things like reflux/ colic etc.

i have read, but don't have to hand, studies that have claimed that if the baby is being comforted the cortisol/stress levels are not so high

it's a BIG difference between a crying baby that is with it's parent/carer and is being comforted, and one that has been left on it's own to cry

i looked into this quite a lot as DS2 used to cry for hours on end inconsolably

what thisisyesterday said, i think there is a big difference between a baby that is left on its own to cry and one where the parents are trying to comfort it.

studies have only ever shown that cortisol levels are raised in the short term. no long term studies have been carried out.

The whole point is that they are being comforted. Being cuddled and comforted raises oxytocin levels that can counter the negative effects of the cortisol. It doesn't matter if you can't stop them crying, what matters is that you try. CC and CIO have been comprehensively demonstrated to set up hardwired pathways in the developing brain that leave the child vulnerable to anxiety, depression and inability to handle stress. This is why health visitors and other HCPs are being told not to recommend CC or CIO for under-1s because the brain is so susceptible to the negative effects of stress at this age.

Sorry, ZuleikaD, I really don't agree. In my opinion, CC and CIO have not been comprehensively demostrated to set up hardwired pathways in the developing brain that lead to anxiety and depression - or at least no studies I have ever seen have adequately demonstrated that. No-one has conclusively established what causes anxiety and depressive disorders in adolescents and adults.

Yeah, but why take the risk if there is even quite strong anecdotal evidence?

Could someone link to the studies in question?

Because it's anecdotal, and that is not evidence. I just really dislike bad science, and especially when it's used to scare parents into thinking they have harmed their children.

I haven't used either CC or CIO simply because I can't do it. I don't believe it's wrong.

Some children sleep really badly and the parents want things to improve - and there is better scientific evidence causally linking sleep disturbance with behavioural and (some) learning problems, as well as with increased childhood injuries and accidents.

I think in deference to the original poster, prob should stop debating scientific evidence on CC and CIO as she did say she didn't want to start a bunfight.

The thing is, how can you prove for sure that it is CC or CIO that created hardwired pathways? You'd have to have exactly similar groups in order to identify the reason why you'd have this sort of "damage". How can you say for sure that a few days of sleep training has such an impact versus days of distress?
My LO have cried way more on longer periods, than when I did CC/CIO with him. And to be fair, when DS2 is struggling with whatever makes him upset, it does not look like us (DH and I) comforting him makes a blind bit of difference unfortunately.

And I am not debating the pros and cons of CC/CIO; I am more trying to understand why people nowadays are so adverse to a "technique" that has been used for centuries by people all over the world.
I feel that the idea that "leaving your child to cry can damage him/her forever" can be very scary for new, not confident mums when in fact, it is not damaging in a loving and caring environment, IYSWIM.

I don't think that comforting a crying baby is going to cause sleep disturbances that affect their functioning or longer term concentration.

I think the fact is that it could potentially be harmful to neural pathways so new mothers need to be warned that there may be a risk. Its each to their own, but having had self-esteem problems and an inability to deal healthily with stress and anxiety growing up, I am very glad that I was warned about this possible effects of CIO. I would have been gutted to have blindly followed my MIL's advice to leave my 3 when I could've followed my instincts and comforted my crying babies.

CC is not a "technique" that has been used for centuries the world over at all.

For centuries, the world over, mothers have co-slept with children and hauled them around in slings, studies of tribal life where this still happens show very reducd crying amoung infants, to the point of an infant crying being very rare.

CC was first mentioned by a doctor who wrote a dubious 1950's book that basically began dictating to parents to ignore their instincts in relation to childcare and has grown into an industry today where parents are so nervous they can not even decide for themselves to cuddle their children withou the "permission" of one guru or another.

I did anthropology at university where I learned to treat studies of 'tribes' that did child-rearing/ ecology/ so much better than 'western' society with a healthy pinch of salt.

I am sure that some people around the world do have babies that cry less and that this is accounted for by their mothering practices, and actually I do agree that co-sleeping is the norm, but the idea that most other cultures somehow tend to follow a more 'natural' childrearing process than us in the west needs to be treated with suspicion. Quite a few peoples around the world leave slightly-older-than-newborns alone for long chunks of the day while they work, for example :)

With another caregiver who is probably equally responsive to their needs.

Well, in my view CC is some sort of technique actually. My gran for example, has no idea about that chap who named CC CC but has done it anyway with her kids. It existed before, but did not have a name.
I take your point about the centuries and the all over the world bit. Bit of a sweeping statement on my part there!

Crying in the arms of another parent actually decreases cortisol levels (providing the babies immediate needs for food sleep etc have been met)
In this case cortisol is released through tears - so the crying colicky babies do actually makes them more relaxed and content!
However crying alone has the opposite effect. If your child is not sleeping and you are considering cry it out why not have a look at more 'humane' methods such as aletha solter books/articles or the resources on the hand in hand parenting website. No matter how much love you give your child in the day it won't make up for abandoning them at night - but if you've already done cc then there are ways you can heal the bond between you and your child by letting them cry in your arms- in order to reduce their stress levels. Lots of info in the resources above.

crying for comfort

here is a useful link that explains more,

this is also an article about how to get your child sleeping through the night, without doing cc and co-sleeping if you want, (hand in hand has info, that you can do without necessarily co-sleeping)

sleeping through the night

if you have already gone down the cio /cc route because you felt like you had no other option to get a good nights sleep, then don't feel bad or guilty, the crying in arms method aletha solter recommends is how babies can heal from all their stress and trauma, including that brought on by being abandonded to cry. She even left her first child alone to cry, because she was desperate, until she found a different way to get a good nights sleep! I did it with my daughter and she enjoy cuddling up together every night, and sleeping through (well most nights anyway!)

please don't ignore the scientific evidence about leaving babies alone to cry, just for the sake of a goods night sleep, there is another way!

sorry I should say I am paranoid too! Namechanged as I didn't like my name much!

cloudhand thank you for the links, you have very nice intentions.
However, I don't feel bad for letting my LO cry for him to go through the night. Considering how long it took and how he is now, I'll be damned if he is traumatised in anyway! But hey, we can agree to disagree, can't we?