Advice (not a thrashing please) about what to do in this situation, feel awful.

[nosleepwithworry]

I have a niece who is now 9. She is a handful, swears, uses racially innapropriate language, will not do as she is told, doesnt go to sleep till after 11pm every night, is cheeky and argumentative (probably a great deal of normal 9 year old behaviour) But i find it very difficult to deal with for any longer than a short amount of time.

School has my sister in regulalry over the problems and have tried all sorts of things from stickers to one to one, to seperating her from kids who are influential etc etc.

My niece lives at my mums house up to 6 nights a week due to my sisters work hours. My mum is as she was when we were kids, agressive, swears, argumentative.....you can see where my niece gets this all from cant you.

My mum has little control over my niece tbh, niece listens to just about nothing my mum says.

Anyway, we have been invited to a family do in the summer, we aim to go with our caravan (me, dh & ds aged 8). We are making a weekend of it and going earlier and staying a bit longer.

My sister has just txt me saying she is unable to get the day off work, to ensure that niece doesnt miss out ont he do, can i take her with us?

I REALLY dont want to, i know niece will dominate the whole thing and will ruin it for us all. Its for an entire weekend too, not a few hours which is challenging enough.
Im not in favour of shouting at some one elses child, i am not comfortable with my ds being exposed to her bad language and to witness her bad behaviour.

Thing is, every one is very very negative about my niece except me...im always saying to my sister that niece is just pushing boundries....you know stuff to make my sister feel better about it, so she doesnt think i have any problem with niece...id but have never ever said anything to her.

What can i diplomatically do here??
seriously stressed and feel so very bad.

Why is your sister leaving her child with her grandmother 6 nights a week when your Mother is not well enough to come to the family do.

It sounds like your sister needs to spend more time with her daughter instead of farming her out to whoever will have her. SOmeone needs to sit her down gently and tell her how it is - n ot make out there is nothing wrong with her daughter's behaviour - it is not normal.

How will you all cope in a confined space when she does not go to sleep til 11pm.

"DS and DN don't really get along" -- that's the clincher for me. Your DS is not responsible for her.

BlueBirdsNest if you don't think a 9yo can be dominating or dangerous you have never seen behavioral difficulties.

Agree with Maryz's last paragraph.

I think this might be the 'coming to a head' moment you need to sit down with your sister, explain why you won't take DN and gently open the proceedings about how she's going to get help for her DD. GP-> CAMHS is the quickest route into the system. TBH though, I expect any agencies they come into contact with will be primarily focussed on getting your DSis to change her parenting and be more emotionally available to her DD.

I wouldn't take her. I agree a nine year old is not dangerous or evil but enough of a nuisance for you and your family not to be able to enjoy the weekend. And enough of a pain for you to be already dreading it. This isn't fair on you or your own children. But I know telling her she isn't coming won't be easy. It sounds like you do a lot for her anyway.

Any child with poor impulse control can be a danger to themselves and others.

Believe me.

Unfortunately my niece has always been difficult to manage, since being little. She is very bright and has no sn. It is purely behavioural.

Everybody, family & friends give my sister a hard time about my niece. I just feel and have always felt that she needs some one to be positive with her.

I have had many conversations with my sister, the last conversation i had with her i told her that if niece were my child, i would be very very worried about her behaviour and would be taking her to the GP for advice re health visitor, child phsychologist or councelling becuase she is clearly screaming for attention.
Deaf ears.
Nothing changes.

My mum, while not the best role model is ill, recently had an operation, yet she is still expected to care for my niece, she does not say no, just complains and grumbles loudly but would never turn my niece away.
So it continues.

Its sorted now, i havent had to say no directly, my sister has text me some crap or other, about bieng far too tired to travel to the family do herself after work...she isnt too tired to go out clubbing though and get my mum to have niece for the 6th night in a row.
Its up to her.

I would not be entirely convinced about having no sn, tbh. At 9 she ought to be exhibiting greater impulse control and not doing a runner in public.

Being bright does not mean no sn. I have two dual exceptionality kids, and just a bright one. The one with ADHD, aspergers traits and anxieties as well as being gifted is far more tricky to parent than the 'just' bright one. And that's with a dx on board, school support, and twice monthly psych appointments.

Hey ho. You get to ignore it again.

I'd say no because you're taking a whole weekend and you're going to do stuff with your ds that she won't be interetsed in. But I know that's a bit of a cop out.

Just wondering why you said you didn't think your sister was a bad mum? I don't see anything good about leaving your daughter with a mother you say you hate, not just when you have to but also when you want to go out clubbing.

madwoman what more can i do? Seriously, i have spoken to her, i have spoken to her over and over i have suggested places for help, i have advised her on alternative ways of speaking to her, to spend time with her child, apply for other jobs so she can have her child home, everything absolutely everything is not carried through.
She nods and agrees...then does nowt.

There really is nothing more i can do, surely you can see that i am not "ignoring this".
At least i speak to her like she is an adult, and a mother, not a stupid halfwitted child which is how my other family members speak to her.

It is so frustrating it really is. I dispair because her daughter is suffering.
When dn is cheaky or obstinate or rude to her teacher, my sister & mum think tis really funny..im like omg she said WHAT to that poor woman!!!!

I wasnt saying that she doesnt have SN because she is bright, not at all, i was thinking more along the lines of that school havent identified any SN really. They believe its reversible behavioural issues.

oh its a nightmare, complete nightmare.
Thanks again for chucking in ideas at me, really appreciated.

Because it is a horrendous thing to say about another person! Very judgemental and quite patronising, not at all for me to say!

no dad on the scene no.
I do think she needs councelling and my sister needs parenting classes, i did them years ago, really helpful, but my sister just pulled a face when i suggested this.
Thats when i told her that if dn was my child, i would be really really worried about her because she isnt right and needs outside help..desperately.

Then why go out of your way to say you don't think she is a bad mother??? Better not to refer to her as being a good or bad mother, just describe the behaviour, or you sound like you are making a judgment.

And in any event, you are making a judgment - you clearly think your sister has a huge amount of responsibility for her daughter's unacceptable behaviour and she isn't facing up to it.

She is..fact! no judgement needed, she isnt sorting a big problem.

Excellent advice as always from the very wise Maryz.

Your poor niece is being let down by her Mother and GM

Very tricky situation for you OP

I'm not sure why you're so worried about just telling her you can't cope with her daughter? I've got rather confused about what you have been saying to whom - at the beginning you said the problem was that you had always tried to make out to your sister that you didn't have a problem with your niece and maybe she was just pushing boundaries, but now you are saying that actually you have already had a conversation with her in which you told her if her daughter were your child, you would be very worried about her and taking her to the GP, etc. If you've already been that upfront with her, then why the problem about accepting your niece into your caravan for a whole weekend????

Yes, quite. Your op says quite clearly that your sister doesn't think you have any problem with your niece's behaviour, as you have always reassured it is just boundary stretching. That doesn't really tally with the deep heart to heart about taking her to the GP or to camhs because her behaviour is such an enormous problem.

Maybe make up your mind about whether you have actually discussed the behaviour as a problem with dsis? Earlier in the thread you suggested you were thinking about suggesting GP or camhs? Now apparently you have already told her that dn needs outside help... The relationships here are obviously complex, but the situation is blindingly clear for the 9yo. Without your intervention, her behaviour will not change.

That's not to suggest that you should or ought to do anything. But I would suggest that the reason you are struggling with the decision to get involved is because you know you have a moral obligation to, but you also know it will be bloody hard (and possibly thankless). Only you can decide whether you feel you owe this to your dn.

I'm not sure that you could solve this one, even if you gave it your best shot. She needs expert help, as do your sister and mother. But that is never likely to happen for two reasons a] the cost to the public services and b] they do not want to change.
Have had similar problems to this one many years ago and took the line that "I can only keep my own ship afloat" That could mean distancing yourself from them or even breaking off altogether. It's a tough call. You have got your own DS to consider and he must be your main priority.

What you shouldn't keep doing is siding with your sister and excusing her behaviour for her on the basis she was brow beaten into selfish and unhelpful behaviour patterns by her mother, which is what you seem to imply in your posts. The attitude of your other relatives isn't sounding so unreasonable, now - perhaps just the way they express it is wrong, if they talk down to her. But correcting the poor expression of their concerns by pretending to your sister the situation isn't as bad as it actually is is a poor way of reacting to that and not treating her like an adult at all, it's just trying to protect her from something she should be facing up to.