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Discipline-3YO

32 replies

GeorgesMum2008 · 01/05/2012 18:07

I am at my wits end with my son, he's rude, embarrassing and I hate taking him anywhere. I am scared to say no to him, it's ridiculous! But I don't know how to discipline him, I usually use the naughty step but it's getting to the point I cannot physically carry him. He is the size of a 5y/o and incredibly strong so when he's having a tantrum, there is nothing physical I can do like pick him up. He seems worse around my friends, they'll say hi, he'll get shy and say "go away!". Sometimes, I cannot even get him in his car seat, if he doesn't want to go somewhere I can't actually make him. I'm at my wits end and i thought tantrums were supposed to end by now how wrong I was, please help!

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Nevercan · 01/05/2012 19:35

I give my 3 year old a warning and then if she doesn't do as she is asked I sit her on the stairs mot 3 minutes. I have a stair gate at the top and bottom of my stairs so I put her there. If he won't get in the car seat put him on he floor and say mummy is going then. Get in the car and close the door. My dd1 is normally shouting at me saying stop I want to come Grin. Choose something that works for you. You need to feel in control.

rhetorician · 01/05/2012 20:25

very typical for 3, I think, judging from my own one, and threads I've read on here. But you really have to master 'no' and he has to get used to hearing it. He won't like it (who does?), but I've found that dd (3.3) responds fairly well to a 'no' said in an even, firm tone. Not angry. I often don't give her an explanation either. E.g. breakfast time: 'can I have a chocolate biscuit mummy?' 'No'. A lot of the time they are just chancing their arms (as in my example, she knows perfectly well that she is not allowed choc biscuits for breakfast). At this stage, you can lie through your teeth practice a little judicious deception too. If he kicks off, just ignore him, as long as he is physically safe. Engaging makes it (a) last much longer and (b) shows that tantrums are effective. I also don't use the naughty step, and prefer other punishments/incentives - taking toys away, not doing something that she wants to do (park/swings/swimming etc)

He does sound like he finds social situations difficult/threatening and this makes him play up (he is trying to avoid them and not getting in his car seat is a pretty effective strategy! smart kid!) - again, dd is like this, and it really helps if I signal things in advance: 'today we are going see my friend x' and outline to her how I expect her to behave. I then get her to repeat it back to me - this ensures that she has understood what is being asked of her. This can take quite a while! He sounds like he is unsure what to do when they say 'hi' to him.

sanam2010 · 01/05/2012 20:43

i recommend you read "competent children". It seems you have very high expectations for your son's level of maturity and it seems he is just not ready. rather than classing him as difficult and thinking about how to "discipline", why don't you try to understand what is going on? why is he behaving this way? is he tired? has he already learnt that you think he is "difficult"? why is he shy? what can you do to encourage him and enjoy social situations more?

Tee2072 · 01/05/2012 20:56

Don't try to carry him if he's having a tantrum. If he's safe, just let him be. Until he calms down there is really nothing you can do. Yes, even in public. The only time I manhandle during a tantrum is if we are in public and he's in the way.

Otherwise, I just let him get it out of his system. Once he's calmed down I continue on with whatever it was I was trying to do.

At 3 they are full of feelings and hormones and the beginnings of testosterone and just can't figure out which way is up.

Keep him safe. Let him calm down. Don't try to reason or discipline.

rhetorician · 01/05/2012 21:13

sanam what is 'competent children'? do you have a link? OP didn't actually say he was difficult to be fair - but the thing about social situations really jumped out at me - my dd is only just starting to find her feet with this, is easily overwhelmed by people, and by situations that are unstructured and then struggles to control herself. Because she is 3...

GeorgesMum2008 · 01/05/2012 21:34

sanam I appreciate what you are saying but I'm starting to think I make too many excuses for him and that's why he acts the way he does, perfect example is the fact he is delayed in his speech. I have lost count of the amount of times I have excused tantrums as I'm unsure if he fully understands what I am saying. Also I have noticed that DS seems more unsettled in situations involving a father- my BIL for instance- I wonder is this because he fears his own father (which he does, but that's a whole other story). It's a mess and I'm unsure where to start, got an appointment with health visitor to discuss next week. He's especially rude when someone he has never met tries to say "hi"- the thing is, I can understand and appreciate he is shy, but screaming "go away" is what I need to work with. Is this punishable? Should I just put it down to his being shy and let it go? You see my predicament?

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rhetorician · 01/05/2012 21:52

georgesmum - that sounds tricky, alright. 'Go away' is perhaps the only way he knows to tell you that he is not comfortable in the situation - 3 year olds aren't always exactly subtle. Does he have any interaction with other children? How is he with them? (my dd opposite - generally fine with adults, but fearful with other children). I don't think you are making excuses for him - you are struggling to find approaches that work...like most parents if truth be told

GeorgesMum2008 · 01/05/2012 22:03

He's at nursery Tues- Fri full time and so far no complaints from them, he seems to have made friends, it's more adults lol. Which is strange because our 'set up' is unusual I still live at home with my parents and 20 y/o sister 18 y/o brother, so he is used to adults also. At home, he is often lovely, playful and 90% of the tantrums are over food (your chocolate biscuit scenario made me laugh as I encounter this most mornings!). I really am struggling with approaches, often in the social situation he doesn't gradually "warm up" either, he can get in a mood and be terrible the whole time. Recently we went for a meal with my sister and niece who he sees every month or so, so not strangers, yet still he misbehaves and I feel they don't see the fun and playful side of him I do. There are a million situations I don't know how to handle, it's like I'm searching for transferable tips on tantrums but every situation is different. Gaaaaah this parenting malarky is so damn hard!

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rhetorician · 01/05/2012 22:09

I just think some of them are funny around other people - mine certainly is sometimes - won't talk, runs around makes strange noises. But she is gradually getting better - I just think it takes some of them longer to 'get' social interaction. Like your DS, my dd is fine at nursery too - it doesn't really sound like there's anything too much to worry about tbh. Over food, mostly I just let it go...if she eats, fine, if she doesn't, too bad, but doesn't get anything else.

GeorgesMum2008 · 01/05/2012 22:47

In a situation where she was hungry- threw food on the floor because it wasn't what she wanted, then 15 mins later is saying she's hungry, would you feed her? Another example of a situation where I don't know what to do, because i knew DS was hungry I didn't know if I should deny him food, but then how would he learn his lesson? arrgh!

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Timandra · 01/05/2012 23:37

I don't think there are any easy answers but there are a some things you could try.

A good strategy is to offer lots of positive reinforcement for good/acceptable behaviour and as little reaction as possible for the bad.

This takes a lot of effort because you need to praise and thank him for every little thing you can think of. It can be very tiny things like asking nicely for something, saying thank you, sitting nicely at the table, putting his coat on bby himself, etc. They don't need to be things he finds challenging, just things you like him to do and that you can show appreciation for.

This should have two benefits. It will allow him to feel showered with attention for good behaviour and therefore his self-esteem will be boosted and he'll not need to get attention by doing anything unacceptable (not that I'm suggesting this is an issue). It will also give him very clear messages about what is the right way to behave in certain situations if he was in any doubt. Children often on hear when they've got something wrong and have to assume that if they weren't pulled up about something it was ok.

Another suggestion would be to be very clear that you mean what you say and don't have any battles that you are not prepared to win.

If you can't use your strength to get him in a car seat and you really have to be somewhere you could use bribery. Allow him to see something he wants and tell him he can have it as soon as he is in his seat. This will only work if you are very consistent so he knows that the only way to get it is to cooperate. If he doesn't cooperate he doesn't get the treat no matter how much he tantrums. If he does cooperate take a few moments to offer praise alongside the treat.

If you think you are not consistent enough now you can change it but it will be a shock to him and hard work for you at first. Children generally only continue to have tantrums if they achieve the desired result. Be very firm and clear in your decisions, stick to what you have said and pick your battles carefully. Don't go head to head over everything so only say no when you mean it and when it's worth it.

If he gets away with things when you're out because you are embarrassed by the tantrums then warn your friends beforehand so they can support you. You shouldn't have to do it too many times before he gets the message.

He is also old enough to learn from natural consequences so if he refuses to eat he can be hungry until the next meal or return to the table to eat what was already on offer when he's willing to sit and eat politely. If he refuses to put a coat on he will be cold when he goes out and soon change his mind. At times like that you can withdraw from the battle of wills because the natural consequences will do your job for you. All you have to do is remind him of why he feels cold/wet/hungry/.... while remaining calm and far more concerned with other matters.

When meeting friends I would simply ignore his rudeness and ask them to do the same, offering him positive attention when he decides to be polite. If he chooses not to speak that's a good way to cope with social anxiety so support him in making that choice. On occasions when he does greet someone appropriately thank him for being so polite and making you proud of him.

Oh and the suggestion above about keeping him informed of plans is a very good one but, again, if you've told him you are only staying somewhere for a few minutes for example, then make sure that is what you do. That way he will know what he has to cope with and it may feel more manageable for him.

He's clearly had some big challenges in his short life so boosting his self-esteem and helping him feel that the world is a safer, more predictable place could be just what he needs.

debka · 02/05/2012 10:05

Timandra what a fabulous post :)

exoticfruits · 02/05/2012 10:22

Excellent post from Timandra. I would just add -use positive language. Always say 'when you get in your car seat, you can.......' and never 'if you don't get in your car seat you can't..........' The brain follows patterns-give it a positive one to follow. Also take care with body language , yours is probably showing fear of a battle rather than calm assurance that he will do as asked.

sanam2010 · 02/05/2012 20:12

GeorgesMum - this is the book i meant:
www.amazon.co.uk/Your-Competent-Child-Parenting-Education/dp/1452538905/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335985511&sr=8-1

one of the main messages is that children by nature adore their parents and cooperate with them - it is just that we often misunderstand their behaviour as tantrums or unruly. For example, a toddler opening cupboards taking out things or throwing your gadgets into the toilet is just mimicking what he observes you doing (with a few details lost in translation!) and is actually being a good boy. The author (a very experienced family therapist) thinks that in many occasions, children copy their parents' behaviour, but the parents don't see it as such but as unruly behaviour.

As an example, a father shouts at a boy "don't shout" or anything else, if the boy shouts, he thinks he is doing right because he is doing what his parents do, whereas his parents think he is being naughty. You seem to be hinting at some issue with his father. Is there any aggressive or socially awkward / rude behaviour that he might be observing and copying from adults around him? Are there any issues between you and your husband that might be creating an uneasy atmosphere for him at home?

No need to answer me, it is your private life and nobody needs to know, I am just elaborating on a few questions you could ask yourself. I find that especially in the UK people are very quick to blame extremely young children for "naughty" behaviour when very often they are still very vulnerable little human beings trying to make sense of the world with the help of their parents.

I also think the suggestion about being positive and encouraging his self-esteem will be helpful. If you stress the negative aspects a lot and criticize him it will just crush his self-esteem further and could lead to more problematic behaviour later on. I wish you good luck! It must be quite exhausting. Hopefully things will get better soon!

rhetorician · 02/05/2012 20:36

georgesmum - in that situation, no, I wouldn't feed her 15 minutes later; I would remind her of what had happened. Food is difficult though - you don't really want to use it as punishment/reward - but they do need to start to understand the consequences of their actions. AGree completely with everything Timandra has said, and about the focus on the positive. It helps improve my mood too, I find, if I am not relentlessly saying 'no' and don't and you can't...

GeorgesMum2008 · 02/05/2012 23:30

Thank you ladies! One of the strangest things I find is ds does not respond to praise etc for positive behaviour- he gets really angry with me, I'll say "Well done good boy" and he'll scream "NO I'M NOT!!!", or after he (reluctantly) apologises for something and I thank him he gets really angry :S One of the most confusing things for me. Me and his father are not together- he left during my pregnancy. He has contact with him- stays with him 4 days a month (long distance), but ds gets VERY upset when he has to go stay with him- seems fearful of him but I have no proof of any wrong doing (apart from an admission ex had hit him once) to insist on any other form of contact. He started wetting the bed recently, spoke to HV who said he needs to be in contact with dad throughout the month as gap between seeing him is so long- does ex stick to this? Does he hell!

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exoticfruits · 03/05/2012 06:41

Unfortunately I would say that the contact with his father is at the bottom of it. Four days a month with nothing in between, if I understand you, no phone calls, letters etc-and then suddenly thrown into a very different situation, with different expectations and different parenting is making for one very upset and angry little boy. I think that you need to fight it for less time but more often, I appreciate that it is long distance, but contact should be in the interest of the DC -and this is not.

BikeRunSki · 03/05/2012 06:53

My 3.6 yo son is very similar - and his behaviour has been impacted by now having a baby sister.

A few weeks ago I complimented a friend of mine on her children's beautiful behaviour. She said that it was hard work, but well worth the long term investment in effort. This was a bit of a wake up call. I have since been much stricter with DS and he is beginning to respond - his good behaviour was even complimented recently!

A few things that have helped - I make sure he always knows what is going on - "Now then DS, today is Tuesday, so we'll be going to Church Toddlers this morning, then swimming this afternoon. What shall we have for lunch?".

  • Make sure he doesn't get hungry. He has never been a big eater and rarely tells me that he is hungry, but I make sure I offer him a snack every couple of hours (if it is not a meal time), this seems to keep his mood fairly steady.
  • Firm "No" in a steady voice, not shouting.
  • Me taking a deep breath and counting to 10.
  • Treat with the respect you would an adult - Please, thank you etc,
  • Lots of praise for what he does do nicely. "DS, that was brilliant nice walking to nursery. I am going to tell NurseryNurse how good you were". He really responds to praise.
  • Remember that his is only 3!
exoticfruits · 03/05/2012 07:15

However, bikerunski,we have just discovered that at only 3 he is having to stay 4 days a month some distance away with a parent who doesn't co-operate and that is the crux of the behaviour. That is what needs sorting.

GeorgesMum2008 · 03/05/2012 14:16

Thankyou again, it absolutely breaks my heart to think of this situation damaging ds, especially as I try so hard to keep a relationship between them, I got Skype especially for them to communicate, phone ex etc etc. Problem is my son doesn't want to talk to him- then ex says that upsets him and gives up. He won't listen when I say if he is consistent that will stop. Ex has depression and withdraws a lot, the only reason I don't stop my ds staying with him is I trust his partner to care for george. I somehow am not eligible for legal aid and when I tried going to a solicitor previously, I met him once, a few letters were sent and had a bill of almost £2000 that took 2 years to pay off. Gaaah I am so angry with ex now.

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PipPipPip · 03/05/2012 14:40

Hi GeorgesMum, I have no expertise whatsoever but it is clear from your posts that you are a lovely Mum!!

I just wanted to say keep trying, keep asking for help, keep asking yourself questions, keep loving your boy and things will work out.

hug

BikeRunSki · 03/05/2012 14:52

George's mum, so sorry I didn't read your post properly, my reply must have seemed very flippant. What a hard situation for you, and I really do not have any advice if you ex seems to be a bit ignorant and uncooperative. A friend of mine is in a similar situation with ex and 3 yo and gets lots of support and advice from our HV, although I appreciate that the quality and availability of HVs varies wildly.

sanam2010 · 03/05/2012 16:50

Poor DS, this sounds very stressful for him!! Does he really have to go away and see his dad at all if it is such an unpleasant experience for him? If he is in distress and it is impacting his wellbeing and development negatively, i would definitely try to protect him from this experience. I know cases like this where the father has to come himself for the weekend (and stay in a hotel or whatever) if he wants to see his child - that way there can be more supervision and ds only has to see him for a few hours.

It's interesting what you say about him thinkin he's not a good bOy - someone seems to have crushed his self-esteem. Please listen to your inner voice and see if you can change some of the arrangements, if your son is in distress and doesn't want to see his dad under such conditions I think you have a very good case. I am all for children knowing both parents but only in a setting that makes it smooth and unthreatenin for them.

GeorgesMum2008 · 03/05/2012 17:09

Thank you so much for your support ladies, and sanam as soon as I wrote about him hating to be called a good boy it got me thinking that too, by writing it down gave me a different perspective. It's the anger he says it with, he hates me calling him it.

Ex is very good at being a dead beat dad but as soon as he faces losing "his rights" he's up in arms, he sees ds as a possession I think. I have to confess after posting earlier I felt so angry and upset I text him saying I have a HV advising if he doesn't speak to ds in between visits we will have to make other arrangements. He is at uni and will get full legal aid, so had no qualms approaching a solicitor. Also because this arrangement has gone on for so long and was legally drawn up, I'm not really sure I'd be able to insist on him staying here to see ds.

It has taken years for me to get to an amicable point with ex, for the sake of ds also, I didn't want the additional stress of us being at each others throats on ds. I gave ds ex's surname, beg him to see son on birthdays and can honestly say I have done everything in my power to help their relationship. If ex is still unwilling, all these years later, to be a father more than 3 days a month he doesn't deserve to be one at all.

Arrrgh sorry for the rant, just feel in a complete mess and now I am really panicking about how it's affecting ds.

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exoticfruits · 03/05/2012 19:18

He is going to have to stop the 4 days a month once he is at school. I wish I knew the answer, but it needs your ex to put DS first.