Angry DS2, just turned 8, has just been grounded at school for the first time

[PacificDogwood]

I have posted about him before and will try to retrieve my old thread, but feel the need to get this off my chest first.

He was grounded for bullying. His version is 'I tripped and fell against this boy who thought I'd pushed him', according to the victim's mum a whole lot more happened. I tend to believe her as DS2 has a problem with owning up to things/being honest (even with himself).

He is Nr2 of 4 boys.
Has v low self-esteem ('I am stupid/ugly/bad').
Is immature for his years ie can be very needy for affection.

I have a meeting with the school tomorrow for another matter, but as they have not contacted me so far, I will bring this up.

I have previously asked whether there were any problems at school as we had a lot of aggression problems at home (physical violance towards younger siblings, uncooperative, a lot of screaming and swearing at little/no provocation). At the very recent partent's evening I was assured there were no issues.

If anybody in the know out there has any ideas on what I could reasonably ask the school to/what support there is available, I'd be grateful for any pointers.

The first of my threads about him - there are 3 . Won't bore you with all of them.

His brothers are 9, 4 and 2 and none of them are angels, but his disruptive behaviour is on a different level.

Anyone ??

In particular, can primary schools offer some kind of counselling??

Hi,

I will go and read your other threads in a sec, but wondered when this behaviour at home had started. It's just that for quite a while he was the youngest of two, with school on the horizon and another brother came along, then another.

How did he adjust at the time with all of the changes?

School can do lots of various interventions, especially around nurture/circle time/feelings groups - but they have to be aware of the problems. As they have not indicated this, I would go in and have a chat with the class teacher about some of the issues at home and this particular incident, see what they suggest.

hth

How wonderful to have 4 lovely boys, but what hard work! Great that the school are not having the issues that you are having at home - but very frustrating that you are feeling unsupported with what is obviously an ongoing issue for you and your ds2.

I haven't read through your previous threads - no time am afraid, but didn't want to read and run. I guess being grounded at school means no playground/lunchtime? That will mean he needs to find other times to run around and let off steam!! Not easy.

There is support available, depending on your school and local area. Many schools have social skills groups running, there are charities like the MCFB in Edinburgh who work with minority ethnic families mainly, but all families too, supporting parents and children with specific support needs (social/confidence) such as your son. Your GP may be able to refer you onto a pediatrics/spectrum (I am not suggesting he's on the spectrum for a minute, but some behaviour management techniques they use may be helpful) team if you feel the anger/honesty/aggression are ongoing - early intervention aims to save a lot if trouble in the future, so it's good to be addressing it as you are!

I would focus by explaining to him once again that you are on his side, will always fight his corner, and love him very much. I would then explain clearly what you see as good behaviour, and what is not appropriate. Give him examples of his recent good/bad behaviour and ask him to explain which behaviours were good/bad, and how he could have reacted instead on the "bad" occasions. Make it clear that you accept his school incident explanation for now, because you love and trust him, but will be ready to help/very proud of him, should he have more to tell you about it another time. Next, ask him what you/his family can do to help him manage his behaviour - to stop the outbursts. Then make him promises of what you can do - give him quiet time/ one to one time/ regular rewards/ control of some events (what meals you all eat/ route to walk to school/ whether to bath or shower or wash etc.) Once he knows he has some control, support and that there is motivation in place (a reward of tv/sweet/toy/outing/ computer time) then set clear achievable goals. E.g. here are 10 stars - if you have 5 by this time tomorrow you can have a " You will lose a star if you swear/shout/need to be told more than once/lose 2 stars if you hit etc. Make the first reward big! Next day he needs to keep 6 stars, then 4 etc.

Good luck - hope some of that is helpful!

Thank you both for your thoughtful replies.

It is quite clear to me that he does struggle with OTOH having to 'compete' with v academically gifted DS1 who is only 1 year older than him and OTOH having lost a lot of my attention when the littlies arrived. He hates DS3 (4 year gap) and goes out of his way to hit/kick/annoy him. This is a real problem, not just for the obvious reasons, but because I ofter go to intervene on his behalf ie tell the annoying toddler off for having destroyed his Lego, only to find him kicking said toddler across the room !. Which then means, that I end up making sure they are not hurt first, which DS2 in turn takes as me 'being against him' and again he feels hard done by. And so it continues...

I really try to give him 1-on-1 time, but time alone is limited as DH works v long hours incl evenings and weekends at times. I have childcare for when I work (3days/wk), but no family or other support otherwise.
Often when I suggest we go off and do something together he is not interested. I also praise every tiny smidgeon of nice behavious I see - and there is lots, to be fair, which makes it so much hardern when he is being horrible.

I have so far never been able to organise myself enough to get some reward/star chart thing going, but really must do that.

We have had long heart-to-heart conversation about this repeatedly in the last few months; some of them on little notes like you used to pass in school (or was that only me??). He struggles with verbalising what is bugging him, gets frustrated and then lashes out. 4 year old DS3 has spectacular temper tantrums, but DS2's are not much different and even louder....
He was born at 31 weeks gestation - I often wonder how much that has to do with anything?

Ok, I am not only rambling; it's the same stream of consciousness that I go through whenever I ponder what to try next to help him as he is quite clearly v unhappy .

Thanks again for your thoughts.

now rambling - must go to bed.

would it be possible to have him start a hobby? something that only he gets to do eg karate? that way he can channel his anger energy, define himself from his brothers + have something that is his alone + something he gets praise for?

you could then use the hobby when disciplining him eg if you don't behave i will count to three, if you still don't do as you are told you will not go to x group this week

i hope things go well at his school tomorrow and that you feel supported and helped by his teachers

Well, meeting at school went ok although not really much further forward.
Apparently he was very contrite when his behaviour towards the other boy was discussed with him and seemed to accept responsibility for what he did.

The teacher I spoke to will chase up the referral to the Primary Care Counsellor that the school has access to which I hope was made in January.

waffling, he has been doing Tae Kwon Do for the last 2 years, twice a week, and really enjoys it. A problem though is that his older brother goes to the same class and is one grade ahead of him (because he stopped for 6 months).
I have trying to persuade him to take up another activity, ANY activity, that could be just his, football, rugby (the local minirugby clup is lovely), scouts, an art class, music - anything at all. The problem is that so far I have not been able to get him to even look at anything. I am sure he would benefit greatly from having something that was just his.

I teach music and so I think it solves everything but actually, is IS wonderful therapy for some kids. Do you have a music shop nearby where where he could look at instruments? Is there a music studio where he could try some out? My DS3 (I have 5 sons, nearly all grown up now) found music a real help in fitting into a world that was not the right shape for him.

Hey pacificdogwood, I don't know the whole story and my phone won't let me read links to other threads on here (grrr) but I recognise your name, which I've always liked, maybe because I'm a mum of 4 too we've been on the same threads?

Anyway, enough middle of the night waffling from me.

I have 3 boys and a girl. My boys are 15, 8 and 16 months. I found that both DS1 and 2 had very strong changes in personality at around 7/7and a half. I read somewhere that they have a surge of testosterone at around this age.

I found both of mine suddenly seemed full of rage over the slightest thing. Both of them would be shaking with anger, which was horrible for then to experience and hard as their mum to know how to deal with it.

I would tell them that they needed to calm down so I wasn't going to continue arguing with them/allow them to hurt or shout at others and then either remove them or myself from the situation. I would give them 5 minutes on their own and then go and give them a cwtch. This usually resulted in tears from them, another big release of emotion I think and then when they were calmer I would ask them why they were so angry and talk about recognising the feelings of anger starting. DS1 is much more self contained than DS2 and his anger flares up and dies down much quicker. DS2 rages on and then feels dreadful about how he's behaved. With DS2 I would sit and do deep breathing with him and taught him (and DS2) to recognise the signs of anger starting and told them to come to me and say 'I'm feeling angry mum' so that I could step in and take control of the situation before it escalated. It didn't work overnight but it has made a difference. DS1 could be hugged, given a drink, make a joke over something silly and he'd be fine.

DS2 seemed overwhelmed by the strength of his feelings, another poster mentioned not fitting in with world, and that rings true for him. He needs me much more to be very strict with him and he seems to need me to take control of his anger much more. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this very well but I feel like i have to be 100% this is not acceptable or he will just keep working himself up. DS2 is the most sensitive of my dc and I sometimes think that he feels everything more intensely than the others.

Anyway, I'm still not sure any of that is relevant to your current situation but I just thought I'd share my experience of boys that age and what worked for us. Thankfully with both of them the anger seemed to calm down after 6 months or so but they will still both come to me occasionally and tell me they are feeling angry and I know it's time for me to stop whatever I'm doing and intervene.

I also want to say that while it's amazing some of the time having 4 DC it's also bloody hard work. My DP works long hours too and it can feel overwhelming at times just dealing with the day to day stuff of living without adding in an angry child so I'm sending you unMN hugs. Take care

Just wanted to reply as it sounds like your DS is very similar to mine, who is also 8. I have posted on here about him a few times! I don't know if I will ever truly know why he is like he is, so I wouldn't over-analyse your DS's behaviour. Some dcs are just like this. I have 2 DDs who are much more what I expected from having children!

My DS has major jealousy issues with his younger sister, he really really hates her and bullies her constantly. I feel really sorry for her growing up with him treating her like this, but tbh it seems to bother me more than her. DS also says he's ugly sometimes, and is generally quite miserable and extreme about everything ("this is the worst day EVER", pretty much every day).

I don't have any miracles for you but just wanted to offer empathy and support. It's very hard! I am working on developing a thick skin - DS will often say he hates me when he is angry, and tells me that everything is my fault. I know it's not personal really, but sometimes he upsets me so much that I once said I felt like running away. Not proud of that.

My DS has good and bad weeks - do you find the same OP?

Oh, you lovely ladies, thank you again for your thoughts.

noteven, he has never shown any particular interest in music. We have a piano in the house that DS1 has taken to, but not DS2. They are going to start the recorder at school next year, who knows....?

Buckbuck, thank for taking the time to write all that .
I find myself sometimes tired of all the talking and explaining. I feel strongly that part of the problem is the fact that he find it hard to express himself with words. He feels 'wounded' v easily, but cannot effectively speak up for himself without shouting/lashing out/screaming/swearing.
I very much recognise the emotional outbursts, aggressive ones and loving ones. He regularly does not want to let me go at bedtime; literally holding on to my trouser leg as I am trying to leave the room. He also gives the fiercest hugs .
I really hope you are right and this is (at least in part) a hormonal thing and Will Pass.

Georgia, yy re the younger sibling being less perturbed than you: so true! And thanks for the empathy - it is truly good to know we are not alone in this.

It was DS3's 4rth birthday today and DS2 was in tears, flung himself to the ground, v upset because he did not get presents today!
DS2's birthday was 12 days agao, he got loads of presents. Which he did not like as much as his older brother's presents (it's his birthday a few days before - yes, bad planning on out part ) or as it turns out, as his younger brother's gifts. FFS. I put a lot of thought into his presents, but knew he would feel hard done by...
Anyway, the rest of the day was good fun: great weather, cake and ice cream were eaten in the garden, some kids came round (with their mums so we had coffee and cake together) and everybody went to bed tired and quite happy.

I think I'd be less worried about him if somebody could look into their crystal ball and tell me that he will turn into a well-adjusted, happy teen/adult rather than some Buckfast swilling thug. Could you please, oh MN Massif??

Good night .

I'm glad you've had a nice day Pacific And birthday wishes to your ds3

I understand what you mean about getting tired of the explaining. It's very wearing and I do find with DS2 that it can drag an episode out. I am lucky that I have extended family support and DS2 is the one who baffles everyone. He is his own worst enemy at times and I have found that he responds best to really strict guidelines which is hard because all I want to do is cuddle him and make everything alright for him.

He wasn't talking when he started nursery at 3 and I had to use a visual diary with him to help him understand plans for the day, let nursery know what he wanted to do, etc so i wonder if that has contributed to his struggle to express his feelings. (He has caught up with his speech now, a constant stream from waking to sleeping!)

I only have my boys to go on, but my oldest had a normal teenage hormonal surge at around 13. He's 15 now and hopefully over the worst of it and I love spending time with him. He still rolls his eyes at me occasionally but he is great company and as of yet not swigging on the hard stuff so there is hope!