"I hit my 4 year old this morning and was so angry I didn't want to stop" - should I call social services?

[QE2]

A good friend of mine has a dd who is almost 4. She behaves like the child from hell most of the time which drives her mum to distraction. She is disruptive, aggressive, rude, nasty and spiteful. No exaggeration.

Friend phoned me less than an hour ago saying she wants to call Social Services to take her away as she does not know what to do with her anymore. Her dd was being nasty to her younger ds (who is sporting a black eye as a result of dd's temper yesterday) this morning and my friend hit her. She was on the phone crying to me saying it frightens her now as she knows she will really hurt her if this carries on.

As a former foster carer, I know a lot of strategies which may help and have imparted my wisdom on many occasions. I know that if SS do get involved it will be a long and painful process to get them back, should they be removed from her care. She is separated from her ex-p who the dd sees regularly but as her time with him is short, he doesn't get to see all this awful behaviour.

Friend has had the intervention of her HV before but she admits she has never told the full truth about how bad it really is as she has feared she will be taken into care. Friend believes something needs to be done NOW as her dd is now at risk from her.

I am tempted to phone SS myself but this will leave me in a terrible situation with my friend. Although I am not stupid enough not to realise her dd's safety must come first.

I am appealing for some thoughts to help me decide what to do for the best for my friend and her kids.

Could she be AS or have ADHD??

Do you think SS would definitely put the child into public care? (Genuine question: the care system's busting at the seams as it is.)

What about talking to a line like Parentline Plus, and/or insisting on being fast-tracked onto some sort of parenting course which might give her alternative support/strategies?

Eeeks QE2
Rock and hard place
Do you think the dd's behaviour stems from her mothers behaviour toward her?
If so then it probably is an SS judgement call.
Either way when you lose control when you hit a child out of anger then you have to break that immediately, she needs proper help to learn strategies of coping without getting angry.
I'm not sure of who is best to appraoch though. GP? Or maybe childline as an anonymous call to ask for help? Or is there like a parentlien action help thing?

Does her DD have special needs or is she just naughty? What about suggesting she get some help through the charity Home Start?

Also what about suggesting she goes on a Positive Parenting course.

I think we're all guilty of hitting our kids at some point, try to support her, don't call SS.

Is there anyone who could take the child off her hands for a break (family/friends?) it sounds like she needs some space at the moment, and then follow up help and support.

Of course the childs safety is paramount, but she doesn't really want her taken off her permanently does she?

(No we're not, SS: and the child's safety is paramount. And there is a lot of difference between talking honestly to the HV and 'calling SS', actually.)

Just read the post again.

she knows she will really hurt her if this carries on.

My alarm bells would be ringing, to admit this, she must be really desperate, I would take these words litaraley (sp)

Sorry dont know what you can do to help, but something needs doing immediately

It's my belief that the child is plain naughty and yes, her mum's approach needs a lot of improvement. Although we are good friends, our parenting styles couldn't be more different. She has asked and I have tried many, many times to tell her what approach she needs to take with her dd; they last all of a day. I find it very frustrating tbh.

Friend says she doesn't like her (she had severe pnd after she was born) and if anyone offers to take her for a few hours, she jumps at the chance. I feel she needs to have her ds taken instead and spend some 1 to 1 time with dd. It has got to the point where her other kids look forward to the time when she goes to her dad's for the night to get some peace and quiet.

dh wouldn't like the girl to come here as she is so nasty to my 2 little ones, otherwise I would have her for a week or so to whip her into shape (as it were).

QE2, has she watched any of those SuperNanny type programmes for tips and ideas?

I would invite yourself round her house to give her some coaching. I think as someone else suggested she's probably smacking her DB as Mum smacks her and they need to get out of the cycling.

Positive parenting - praise for good behaviour, ignoring (if it's safe) the bad behaviour.

Why not suggest to the little girl that she can come but if she's nasty she'll have to go home. How many siblings are there? Mum perhaps is exhausted.

Is the little girl being put to bed at night with a routine?

Would ex-p be able to have her for longer periods? It sounds like she may be incredibley insecure at mo. How long has parents been split? How old is younger sibling? Has there been alot of change? Any chance mum could have depression?

I know kids behaviour can be off the wall at times if there is a lot of change/disruptions. It doesnt make them nasty and spiteful at 4 tho imo, although their behaviour might be they themselves are not iykwim

She knows exactly what she needs to do - she seems incapable of putting things into practice and staying consistent. There is a certain type of parent imo that you just can't get through to; i am afraid she is one of these, sadly. Supernanny, Little Angels, books and parenting courses have all been done. The parenting course through her very good playgroup has been excellent, but still she has a problem putting the tips into practice.

This is why I am so concerned now. Only today has she been completely honest with her ex just how bad things are.

has she tried contacting homestart ?
they may be able to offer some help?

soz posts crossed - thought thre might be some depression/deeper issues there. How many siblings are threre? is she eldest or middle. tbh at 4 i feel for her.

Kids learn to behave as they are shown.

have goose bumps thinking about this QE2. Situation sounds so awful. Do you really think your friend is serious about hitting her daughter in an excessive way?
It would be awful for that child to be taken into care. Despite having been beaten regularly myself with all sorts of household implements, I honestly think I was probably safer and less at risk than I would have been being moved from foster carer to foster carer.
If your friend "fears" that her daughter will be taken into care - then she must love her. Is your friend still depressed - is this why she can't change her behaviour towards her little girl?

Can HV refer them all for family therapy or something at the community health centre - if there is one in your area?

It MUST be serious, and worth the HV taking urgent action, not only because of the Mum's situation, but because a younger child ended up with a black eye.

The fact that the Mum has been open to you, and acknowledged her worry about doing harm is v hopeful, i think, that she would be receptive to outside support rather than having the kids removed.

I would have liked to think, had another adult picked up on my step father's behaviour towards me, they would have intervened. I was offered a place in care at 15/16 but chose to rent my own place instead. I had involved the police myself, alone.

QE, as a foster carer it sounds as though you know the ins and outs of a social services procedure. A member of my extended family (the younger generation) was taken into care and though incredibly painful, awful at the time, in hinsight it was the best for all concerned. She returned to a safe environment and mum and child are extremely happy, abusive father no longer in the picture. (Would like to clarify that she was removed from parents care due to a life threatening level of abuse).

It sounds as though you are leaning towards contacting an organisation yourself and given that you've tried all you can think of, I for one would feel this would be a reasonable step to ensure the children's safety.

Chances are the children wont be removed and that she will receive support and guidance. Better for her if she does ring them herself but not in the context of asking them to be taken away, rather, for support.

Either way, it does sound as though positive steps need to be taken.

Thinking of you as this must be very hard on many levels.

Anyway, QE2, in all honesty, i think you need to talk urgently to someone - or get her to talk honestly to her health visitor - this is a huge responsibility for you to have on your shoulders, and I think it should be passed to someone professional, poss HV.

Other kids are

dd1 aged 15 who has her own problems including being bullied at school and recently taking a n od.

ds1 aged 11 who is ok and best mates with my ds1.

ds2 who has mild learning difficulties.

dd2 who is the "problem".

ds3 who is usually fairly quiet but getting more whingey in an attempt to compete for attention with dd2.

The younger 2 go to their dad's but as he works I don't think it would be feasible to go for extended periods.

There isn't much of a routine in the house. Kids do pretty much what they want for "a quiet life". She had severe pnd after dd2's birth and was treated with ad's. She split with ex about 6 months ago was forced to live in a homeless refuge as he kicked her and the kids out on the street. Her first reaction to bad behaviour is to shout, then hit. Despite parenting courses, help and tips from me and HV's nothing seems to change.

I do believe she is reactive. When things are going well, she copes better. When things are difficult for her (mainly with ex) she gets like this. I am worried for dd's safety and something needs to be done very quickly.

SS don't just whip kids into care.

Do you really think she would do damage? it sounds as if you do. I am NOT in danger of actually doing my DS damage, but am nevertheless capable of feeling a feroscious rage well up inside me. Was she referring to that sort of feeling? In any case, things don't look as if they will improve on thier own.

If you think that next time, or the time after that, she might not stop hitting, i thiink you should call SS.

i don't think you should call SS. try another organistion or the HV. maybe parentline plus? she obviously need help but (as you probably know) this may not be forthcoming from hard-pressed SS. it may end up with SS in the end but i don't think that's the place to start.

there will be confidentiality issues but - could you see her HV together to see what help is available locally? if she made the appt and told HV you were to go with her, HV would probably then speak to you over phone if you wanted to make clear to her beforehand how serious things are.

take care this is a tricky one and will obviously take a long while to resolve fully.

Blu, yes I do think she will end up hurting her. Not intentionally but in reaction to some bad behaviour when she will snap and lose control. This has been going on since she was born and there is no sign of improvement.

I have bitten the bullet and called Homestart in my area. A co-ordinator will phone me back in 10 minutes.

You haved one the right thing both for the child and for mum!

After reading this, I've just applied to be a Home Start volunteer. They're sending paperwork, they help families with a child under 5 and they were very grateful for the call. Apparently many families refer themselves for help.

QE, you've definitely done the right thing in contacting someone.

Have you any contacts in SS from your fostering days who could advise you? Just a thought.