makaton vs. baby signing

[maomao]

Hi everyone,

Have a 6 month old, who doesn't seem to have any development issues (unless you consider chubbiness a development issue!). I am doing some research re: sign language. Wondering what your thoughts are on Makaton vs. baby signing.

Also, have you found that signing of some sort really does help the child communicate?

Thanks for your sage advice!

fizz14, is that the book by Linda Acredolo? And do you recall whenn she started to sign?

How fantastic is that video of signing babies, so precious. I just wonder if I would have the patients to do this with DD. Would be amazing to communicate with her like that, and help to reduce the frustration I think babies/toddlers have in trying to tell u something and not being able to explain.

sorreeee spelling is so awful - may be I need spellinng classes first b4 trying to teach my DD anything!!!!!

OK, with the risk of pouring cold water on all this enthusiasm... I got the Joseph Garcia book when pregnant, and learned some of the signs. I have been doing about 4 consistently with my ds since 6 months old and he is now 11.5 months, very alert,curious, babbling away nineteen to the dozen, walking etc, etc, but has never once shown any inclination at all to copy or use any of the signs. I will have 3 languages anyway, and hears all 3 nearly every day, and seems to understand the same simple things in each (certainly in the 2 main ones) I had thought that signing would help because the sign remains the same whatever the language, but I am going to give it a month or 2 and then give it up as a waste of time if he hasn't used it.

Sorry to pour cold water over everything, but wondered if anyone else has found it no good??

sorry, that was HE will have 3 languages (well, only if I can get the English right!!)

Steppemum - my understanding of baby signing is that the "window" of response is between 10 and 14 months, so at 11.5 months I would keep going for a while longer. When you say your ds is babbling do you mean he has a large vocabulary? If that's the case then I wouldn't worry about signing - it's meant to act as a bridge between no communication and being able to use speech to communicate.

My ds at 14.5 mths has a reasonably large vocab of simple understandable simple words (cat, dog, bath etc) but he uses some with signs and signs more "abstract" concepts like "finshed" and "more". As he can't use sentences yet, I'm quite happy to keep signing with him and see what else he picks up.

I did slo find that the Joseph Garcia signs were a little too complicated for not too dextrous little baby hands - it's based on ASL which is a separate language rather than an adapted version specifically for babies. I would also recommend the book by Linda Acredolo (sp?) or Sing and Sign or Signalong for a more baby friendly signing system. HTH.

Nothing from bob junior until this week (9 months)when he has started to wave and clap and play peek a boo. I think some signs will follow now he has worked out how to do deliberate things with his hands iyswim.

Same here BTB. My Bob had to learn to use his hands first (clapping etc) before any signs followed. I would count waving as a sign though

Just another thought for Steppemum. Go for the things your ds is interested in. My ds was obsessed by desk and ceiling fans so we made up a sign for that. He says "fan" now, but still uses his sign too. He won't use animal signs - he would rather attempt the word or growl/miaow etc. But he loves his bath and so that was another of his first signs (a pretend washing/scrubbing movement). We use the makaton for "more" rather than the ASL "more" which needed a bit more dexterity than ds has atm.

If in doubt make up your own signs and just be consistent - it's more about easing frustration at this age I think.

Ds suddenly twigged a couple of months ago to use the "home" sign (putting hands up to make a roof shape) when he recognised the road home or we pulled into the driveway.

Steppemum, I'm impressed that your son will know 3 languages! I'd be interested to hear whether he picks up the signing in the coming months.

Bobthebaby, congratulations, that's great news!

I've noticed that my daughter looks at her fingers in wonder when I sign, and it SEEMS like she's starting to work out the sign for milk, but then again, she could just be fretting/grasping at the air!

Maomao - sounds really promising to me! Once babies see that you are using your hands to emphasise what you're saying they quickly realise that they can too and will attempt to copy you. Although to begin with they will "babble" with their hands in the same way they experiment with their voices. That's when it gets interesting because they might be trying to sign or they might just be saying "mphrgrumphrumerahdf" for fun

sorry, only just got back online. Thanks for the advice bobsmum. He babbles away with lots of noises (often with the intonnation of a sentence or question), but no recognisable words, and when he wants something (like a drink) he gets frustrated because he can't tell me what it is. He loves to clap his hands, but he hasn't been doing it for long and is not very dextrous at it, so he probably isn't ready to sign. I had been concentrating on the signs around the food table, and now that i think about it, I don't think he is bothered, because we usually know what th problem is with food, so the signing is a bit redundant. I will try some around his favourite things, bath is a good idea.

Actually now that I think about it, he uses clapping as a sort of sign. As soon as I put music on, he sits down and puts down whatever is in his hands and claps. I had been thinking of it as a response to the music, but I think he is also using it as a word for music. You've inspired me to give it another go!

Just to say I'm a salt and signing is FANTASTIC for facilitating lang. development, not just for children with SN but with all kids. Even if you can't see immediate evidence of them using the signs, it is facilitating comprehension in a multi modal way (could now launch into expounding on the psychlinguistic framework to prove my point, but somehow, don't think you'll find it as exciting as I do...)

Bags of research to back all of this up.

All are variations on a theme. I particularly like the www.singandsign.com which we have played hundreds of times. DBP is great too.
I am presently working on developing my own video in association with a music therapist.
All top secret at present though...

As this has come up again, I'd have to say I'd really recommend it - my DD is now 16 months, she has over 70 words and signs and over a dozen verbal words in her vocab, which I think is rather good for a baby of her age. Almost all the words she uses have come from signs... so it must work!

I also dumped the Gracia method on grounds that it was just too difficult, and opted for Linda A. It was just after I changed that she started signing back (at 12 months). By 14 months, she had about 40 signs... and now 70+ (lost count at 70 tbh!)

Now she's loosing interest in signing as she prefers to talk, and hasn't learnt a new sign in ages, but she still regularly signs the old ones, she evens babbles in sign, and signs to herself when she's not aware of anyone around her -v.cute!!!

Anyway, I'm waffling, but thought I'd post this, as it was sent to me recently:

Early Communication with Sign Language has Been Shown to Raise I.Q. Scores.
Early Communication with Sign Language can raise IQ scores and has many other significant benefits. A study funded by the National Institutes of Child Health and Human Development shows that signing infants enjoyed numerous benefits including:
Increased Ability to Communicate with Caregivers
Decreased Frustration (probably due to a better ability to communicate needs.)
Better language skills (Evidenced by larger vocabularies, the ability to understand more words, and an increased interest in books!)
When tested at seven and eight years of age the children who signed as infants had an IQ that was on average 12 points higher than the non-signing group.

HTH

actually this is interesting. As it's reasonably likely (given his siblings) that ds3 will have some sort of speech/language problem I would like to sign with him. There are local classes but I'm not sure I can get to them (I know I can't get to the one I could definitely get a place on). Because its reasonably possible he could have quite a major communication disorder I thought I'd be better off using Makaton rather than other baby signs (the courses don't use makaton). Is there anywhere I could get a video (other than Dave)? Are the baby signs (based on BSL) much different than Makaton? I need a sign with your baby using makaton guide iyswim.

mizmiz - is this idea barking? Am I being logical? it would be quite good to use makaton anyway I think as now ds1 is at an SLD school they use makaton there (although he uses PECS to communicate, and they don't expect him to sign, they do back up spoken instructions with Makaton as well as symbols).

Jimjams - I've just got the singandsign video (www.singandsign.com ). Obviously, I'm not terribly well versed with makaton - I have the books and have watched Something Special, but superficially a lot of the signs seem very similar to me - especially the animal signs.

I would have thought that at baby level, ds3 would find singandsign nice and easy to do and then learn the different Makaton signs as he got older? Logically I feel this would be no different than children learning, say, that a doggy is the same as a dog and mama is the same as mummy - they just learn baby word first and alternate ones later.

The advantage of singandsign being, of course, that there's more chance of there being a class local to you (unfortunately, there isn't one near me).

Well, I still sign with my dd (21 months), although she speaks very clearly and quite well. We never went to classes, actually, as I couldn't possibly afford them . I just did a lot research, and bookmarked a couple of ASL and BSL sites. We really enjoy signing with my dd, and it helped a great deal with tantrums, as she was able to ask for things that she wanted.

Jimjams, although DS1 uses PECs I would strongly recommend at least exposing him to makaton too. Although signing hasn't turned into fluent communication for my DS and we still use PECs too, I am convinced that it is the thing that kick started him even attempting to talk. It didn't develop into talking but without it I don't think we'd have got much attempts at functional vocalisation. If nothing else, you doing it to him when he gives you his PECs would be good. And of course no harm with DS3, I can vouch for how well Maomao's DD was signing and how good her communication is. Any chance you could get videos of Something Special? Wasn't someone on SN willing to send copies to people who wanted them? I wish the BBC would put it out commercially

yes I agree Davros (although ds1 has always tried to communicate and can't gesture- but it does visualise language and any extra help has to be good.

That's why I'd rather do Makaton than singandsign- killing 2 birds with one stone so to speak.

How did you learn Makaton?

There aren't andy sing and sign classes near me, but there are signingbabes ones -which look good- it just looks as if its going to be tricky for me to get on one. Although the person who runs them will teach a group if I can find one - so is there anyone in the Plymouth area who would want to get together- may set up a separate thread

I think Makaton would be better as more functional long term. Gawd knows how I learnt what I know! I have been on a couple of courses via SLT and a local charity and DS's school does them. Can you beg your CDC to let you go on one for professionals if they're doing one? Otherwise, don't know. Makaton does do a core vocab video but I'm not sure how good it is. Courses are good as you have to sit there like a lemon practising! You could prob find a Makaton trainer if you could get enough people to set up a course. I know of a couple but don't know if they'd travel.... possibly. The most important thing is to learn and practise the signs that are the most useful and be able to find out new signs when you need them. There's no point knowing the sign for anything and everything, I rather switched off once it got over a certain level.

I've just looked on the Makaton website- they seem to do quite a few training workshops so will look into that. Of course I can ask at school as well.

Jimjams..idea not barking at all!
Davros is right. The Makaton (or whatever signing system you use-they are not that different. If you are in the special school system, Makaton is probably more prevalent, but remember, ALL signing is beneficial for ALL children.) will strengthen your child's comprehension which is the foundation for all language.
The result of this is not always obvious (hence some people who say 'I'm fed up with signing..he doesn't use them back') but believe me,it is cementing together all the pre-requisites of language-understanding,joint attention,turn taking,imaginary play and so on.

I really really encourage use of PECS and signs(better still if there is also symbol/picture support.) because then you have the Total Communication approach which is basically bombarding a child with information/clues which can be picked up through all modalities. He is processing visually AND aurally. As we know, a great many children with SN have difficulty processing spoken language but are often very good at processing visual information.
With signing, the focus is on understanding and with PECS on expressing.
Fantastic!!
If everyone did this as a matter of course (ie used a total communication systen with children with SN) the results would be very dramatic indeed.
This is one of my big hopes for the future.

Jimjams - I was recently searching my local college courses for childcare stuff, and discovered they offer 1-day workshops called something like "Makaton for parents and carers". We're nowhere near you, but the local college courses are pretty limited so if they offer it, I'd be surprised if a similar course isn't fairly widespread (or maybe there is a local Makaton-using school or teacher who organised our college into it).

I did a Makaton course at the cdc. It made a huge difference to ds3, so much so that I did buy the core package, cost around £100. The video imo is a bit dreary but the booklets very useful.

I have noticed that SALT's here use Makaton and visual time tables a lot now. Ds4 who is NT but has langauge problems SALT has used them with him and again they have been beneficial.

To clarify (based on the original question): Makaton is a set vocabulary based on 1960's/70's South East regional variations of BSL signs and uses a combination of speech, signs, and graphic symbols primarly for the use with people who won't comprehend a changing and adaptive language and those who find communication very difficult eg Down Syndrome, autism and other sensory or neurological disorders. British Sign Language (BSL) is a language in its own right (it was given language status in 2003). As such it changes and grows, it is used primarily by the deaf, their families, friends and colleagues. BSL signs are also becoming increasingly popular to be used alongside speech (sign supported English) with babies - baby signing - to bridge communication gaps whilst their speech develops.

Do ask the groups you look at what their sign base is as some use a combination of American, British, and 'made up' signs others follow a particular strain.