Arrrrgggggghhhh! What do we do with our deep-thinking child?

[MayaAngelCool]

Our 5 yo DS seems to think a lot. I don't know how he compares to other kids of his age, but it does often affect certain aspects of his life. Such as sleep disturbance.

I shan't go into detail over the things we've tried to get him to sleeping through the night, but basically we have tried everything you could possibly think of and done it all to the letter. I've now managed to whittle him down to waking just twice a night, and when he does wake he makes himself frightened if we're not in the room with him. So I'm now telling him that he has to read himself to sleep so that I can go back to bed. It seems to be working...

The thing is he's one of those kids who can work himself into a frenzy - he sometimes makes himself throw up if he doesn't want to eat a food (even a food which he says he enjoys ), or as happens every night, he works himself into a state so that he feels scared without us near. I think the reading thing helps to distract him from his thoughts. Perhaps I should invest in some talking books for nights when he doesn't want to read.

Apart from this he is a lovely, sunny, fun, bright, affectionate and mostly confident child. He's doing well at school and enjoys going there.

So I'm curious as to whether anyone else has/ knows a child like this? When I tell people about the sleeping problems I get 'the look' which says 'Clearly you're doing something wrong as parents'. Which isn't true - at least, it's not the cause but I can't be bothered explaining that to people any more! Surely we're not alone?

I'm wondering whether anyone else has a child that thinks themselves into a frenzy and has trouble sleeping/ any other effects of the overthinking thing.

Bump!

Take him to a shrink.

RE the sleeping, I just let dd come into our bed. Very much frowned on in this culture, less so in mine.

If you are a sensitive child, you are a sensitive child: I don't think it's the parent's doing. You can teach them ways to handle it- as you are doing!- but you can't change their personality. I think it is often children with a vivid imagination- and a vivid imagination has its compensations too.

I don't think I'd call this deep thinking. More "over-thinking" or "imagination".

Dd2 can use her imagination to her advantage, and tbh that certainly sounds just like her at night. I don't ignore it, sometimes I will let her read, but only occasionally, because I am fairly sure she quite likes the attention she gets from frightening herself. She can turn tears on at will, and can look absolutely petrified, so a lot of it is an act. She can also make herself sick.

My approach is to give it as little attention as possible. Been sick. Fine you have a day in bed with boring plain stuff to eat. (she's pretty much given that one up now as she hates being bored in bed) She has a nightlight she can turn on if she's afraid in the dark, so if she'd making a fuss, I might come and turn it on, or give her permission to read, but I don't stay.

bonsoir that's very helpful!

Sounds a bit familiar - the sleeping part - but we noticed our ds wasn't fully awake. He grew out of it. I would be tempted to go to doc who hopefully would refer you and then they could talk through it probably much the same as you but it kinda helps - another aspect to dealing with it probably in the way you already are. If you have to wait far too long I would resort to sleeping in his bed when he wakes anything to get him back off quickly, although I must say the book reading sounds good and maybe you should also pursue that a bit longer. Not very helpful but all I can offer. Wish you and your ds luck.

I was like this as a child, ds2 is like this now. Agree with DeWe it is just (hah!) down to having a BIG imagination and a rather highly-strung sensitive temperament.

I think your best bet is to cater for it (night-light etc) but not pander to it iyswim? Personally, although I couldn't, for example, stop myself from being frightened at night, I did rather like the attention it could bring. Whereas what I really needed (not wanted) was the tools to manage the fear and settle myself.

My dd and ds1 sound a little similar, but without the waking problems. They are very sensitive, very emotional, imaginative. I may have thought it was all my fault if I didn't have a ds2 who is v different! My dd HATES being controlled, so she will do anything to get out of doing what YOU want (she is 3 ). Perhaps this is the case with the being sick if he doesn't want to eat. Is he feeling pressured to eat? With sensitive kids, even encouragement can feel like they are being manipulated.

I understand with sensitive kids that it's not necessarily about how much sleep they NEED - their mind will override this and then make them physically more tired/ more wound up. My ds1 (he's 6) sometimes finds it v hard to go to sleep and then can wake up at 4.30/ 5 (when on good days he sleeps till 7-7.30). I can tell he is stressed (it's usually stuff going on at school). I let dd come into my bed as she is 3, although we are trying to get her off this.

Lots of talking, what's going on in his head before he goes to sleep? How has his day been? Anything bothering him?

Will a night light help? A hot water bottle? If he's had a bad dream, I think it's reasonable that you give him a cuddle. It's a balance between not making a fuss of less-than-desirable behaviour and understanding that there may actually be stuff going on inside him that it's not fair on him to just squash and say, "deal with it yourself". Maybe you can talk about his dreams first thing in the morning, or get a bit deeper into why he wakes up. What wakes him? What makes it hard to go back to sleep?

Tough one. I struggle with my own kids too!

DD has always been a dreadful sleeper. Like Cory, we used to let her come in to sleep with us. It at least meant we all got a reasonable nights sleep. She is 9 now, and usually puts on the light when she wakes up at night, reads a bit and then dozes off again. Sometimes she still comes and quietly gets in our bed, but not very often. I think just the knowledge that she could come to us makes her feel a lot better.

Incidentally, I slept most nights in my mum's bed until I was about 8. Very normal in her culture. I had dreadful night fears when I was little, for no clear reason.

sounds a bit like my dd who is 3; she takes everything to heart; seemingly minor incidents from months ago still play on her mind at the same time as she will rarely tell you directly what is bothering her - possibly beacuse at 3, she doesn't know herself...all events have the potential to make her completely overstimulated (which leads to hysterical crying), or to prompt a tantrum (e.g. because I let the cat in instead of her, or opened the front door myself). It makes her quite difficult to parent, but firm boundaries and clear consequences help as then she knows where she stands. OTOH this is the child who organised snail races between 2 bits of cheese...so she doesn't need much in the way of toys!

My DS (5.5) is like this too at the mo we have gone with a mattress on the floor in our room and that has got him sleeping better he just creeps in without disturbing us. As for the food bit we have got to the stage where our only demand is that he sits at the table and talks to us while we eat usually he does eat some of what is in front of him. If he doesn't touch it fine.

Well first of all don't make him eat if he doesn't want to but don't give him anything else.

Let him come in your bed maybe? I've never let ds do this because by the time he wanted to dd was here and hed wake her and I'm not having 2 of them in there!! We have put a spare bed in his room though so if he wakes one of us can go through and fall back asleep in there, no talking though and no reading / playing etc.

Ds is only just 5 but definitely has an extremely vivid imagination and is very sensitive. He never tantrummed when he was little but he gets really upset now about things which don't really matter. Some of that is pure bad beyaviour though - like wanting a millionth pee at bedtime - its just a delaying strategy and I ignore it.

Do you think its anxiety that is causing the problem - rather than the thoughts themselves?

I have a very thoughtful older child, but who does not suffer with anxiety at all, really.

I have a playful daughter who, when worried, experiences great anxiety. It's this anxiety which seems to be her issue. Maybe read up on anxiety.

I don't think it matters what the child thinks about, and how 'deep' it is - but its how they deal with worry/anxiety.

Hunger, tiredness, feeling upset about something at school - will all contribute to my daughters ability to cope with her anxiety.

Breathing exercises seem to be quite good.

Lots of food for thought here and it's SO nice to see that we're normal!!

I'm about to lose phone reception so will be back later. Thanks, all!

Bonsoir

Hi, I'm back - apologies for the absence, DS was poorly for a few days, poor little darling. It's so typical, though. When I'm sick, I can still get on with all my usual stuff, but when the DCs are unwell I can barely get a thing done.

Not sure if any of you will come back, but here goes!

Cory - we've done endless months of bedsharing in the past, in the hope that it'd make him feel feel secure enough to grow out of it on his own. We haven't got there yet, and instead he's become extremely wriggly, so sleep was bloody impossible.

So we then put him on a mattress on our floor for several weeks. I would say most of the time he disturbed us even there - calling out, chatting away, etc. In the end I gave up on telling him off and banished him to his room. That was about a year ago, though, so perhaps I should reconsider it.

At the moment I do offer the incentive of coming to our bed 1/2 an hour before his official waking time, provided he's behaved well at night. He likes this, but still disturbs us a couple of times a night before this time.

basic - thanks for your thoughts anyway! DS is definitely awake. But as you say, the reading thing could be a key.

Barbarian - good point re tools. I shall add this to my enormous roster of Things To Do To Get DS To Settle. Interesting about the attention thing. Apparently DH was the same as a child, and every time we discuss this he says 'Yes I know he's doing it to get attention, I did it for the same reasons when I was little.' So why^ in god's name does DH keep feeding him with too much attention when he wakes??? Gaaahhh!

Merry - we have always had a rule that as long as he tries one small mouthful of something he doesn't want, he can leave the rest. Until recently it's worked fine, but in the last few months he's occasionally kicked up more of a fuss - probably made himself sick about 4 times in 4 months. But I refuse to pander to that - I don't think our expectation is reasonable. However I do think we need to become more hands-off in general about how much he eats, as mealtimes can be stressful depending on what we're eating. I think we do need to leave him completely to his own devices and make abvsolutely no comments about it.

We have tried this several times in the past. However, DH has a bit of a control freak thing going on, and simply will not keep his mouth shut, not matter how much he realises he is making things worse. And then I end up letting myself get drawn into his 'lecturing is the answer to all our troubles' approach and the whole thing falls apart.

As far as what wakes him, it's fear of being on his own. Not dreams. And because he thinks so much, I think that's what's generating the fear. So yes, we have nightlights and music, and now reading to distract his attention and tire his eyes.

rhetorician - cheese snail races! Brilliant!

madame - you give me hope!

mistletoe - DH used to sleep on the top bunk but DS would make noise to disturb him. Honestly. Now we have DD in the same room in order to tackle the fear of being alone. It's helped a bit. But he still bloody wakes up. Dunno, really.

sussiq - yes, I think we should try your approach properly. And tape up DH's mouth .

daytoday - it's self-generated anxiety. So yes, breathing and other tools I think will help a lot. Bloody better.

I too have a deep thinking child... but I'm years ahead of you OP - mine is now 19 and at uni doing a degree in philosophy

All the sleep stuff you post reminds me of our past.

He sounds very similar to my DS (4) and we have recently implemented some new bedtime techniques to try and stop the overnight waking and demanding to come into our bed as it just disturbs us all.

This bedtime meditation/relaxation CD is really good and was recommende by our HV. My son responds well to it and i think it helps him to 'wind down'.

nightsky! Gasp! You've reminded me that when he was a baby I nicknamed him 'the philosopher'!

I really should chill out more about this stuff. Thank you!

You are brilliant. What a brilliant idea. I'm going to download it right now and burn it onto disk so he can use it tonight.

God, I love mumsnetters!

Sounds like me as a child, couldn't switch off enough to go to sleep, vivid nightmares and odd about food.
What helped:

1. reading until I fell asleep ~ I read so much it was way ahead of my age group which wasn't a bad thing educationally
2. to avoid the trap of starting to worry about what I might have nightmares about when dropping off (yes a bit silly) I used to visualise a black blind being pulled down to cut off whateve scary thing I was thinking about, then try to keep a blank mind.
3. My parents weren't into cuddles or reassurance (probably due to repeated sleep deprivation over several years poor things) but it did help.

I'm still a worrier and obsess endlessly about stuff. What helps snap out of it is to think, ok well what would I do if happened? Could i deal with it & that does help.

Hope your DS gets on ok :)

Bela, that's really helpful. DS is also several years ahead of his age in reading - thank god!!! - so I'm so very grateful to his amazing teachers for that, that we can use it as an option.

Wrt cuddles, do you mean it helped that your parents weren't cuddly, or it helped at times when they were? Am hoping the latter as I am a very tactile, huggykissymummy!

Have no advice.
Just want you to know that when I was a child, I was a really deep thinker (would contemplate the future of my imaginary descendants when the sun died).

Your DC sounds like an imaginative, intelligent, sensitive child (but I would say that). Love them. Accept them. Let them know it's ok to think but when it gets overwhelming just bring them back to you. Back to your love.

They're world may be massive. Bigger than you can understand. That is good. People like that expand our understanding, but in order for them to explore it comfortably they need to know safety in the boundaries of your love.

I am also incredibly grateful for whoever invented mp3 downloads. I now have the meditation cd! I now have it in my possession. Must make sure I burn the right audiobook - and NOT click on The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo!

daytoday - do you have any further reading or strategy ideas for dealing with anxieties please? My DD is exactly like the children described here... sleep disturbance is killing us now...

Dione, what a lovely, lovely post. The other day he said to me in a worried tone: "Mummy, will the world end?" At first I thought he'd picked up some dodgy newspaper headline or something, but then realised it's because when he gets over fretful about small things, I say to him 'It's not the end of the world, honey, you'll be fine.'

!

I have to be so thoughtful about what I say to him at times like that. Nowadays I'll say 'if it can be easily fixed it's not a disaster'. And then either I'll tell him how it can be fixed, or I'll ask him to tell me. And that seems to work just fine, without creating a cataclysmic Bruce Willis disaster movie in his head. God, just imagine having Bruce Willis in your head. Shudder.

I am reading The Highly Sensitive Child and every time I pick it up I heave a sigh of relief about the normalness of his more sensitive behaviour. It's incredibly reassuring, in exactly the same way as your post (have you read it too?), that his sensitive qualities are acceptable, wonderful and incredibly enriching.