HELP - my 6 year old DD has problems with FURY and it's causing problems at school

[narnalisa]

I've been taken aside a number of times recently to talk about DD's issues - she flies into rages and even gets violent at school. I just don't understand it - she has a fiery temper (like her father!!) but the teacher says it is like a toddler screaming tantrum and if she doesn't learn to simmer down, her position in the class might have to be reviewed, particularly if she hurts others. She doesn't cope well when other children call her names or correct her when she thinks she is right - and she does like to be in charge so she is quite a bossy little madam... I trying to teach her to be calm. We've put in place a "no shouting" policy at home to see if that helps but it is early days. HELP! I don't want her to be ostracised by the other kids... and the teacher says that she anticipates "social problems" if she doesn't learn to control her temper.
Possibly worth mentioning that she is now having to share a bedroom with her 3year old sister, new baby due in 2 weeks. Trying to give her enough attention but it isn't always easy. Guidance much appreciated!!

So this is a new thing? Does she do it at home?

Also wanted to say that my DD used to get herself into a terrible state, not temper, just hysterical and I spent quite a while teaching her how to calm herself down. I would sit with her and talk calmly and get her to breath in time with me and keep telling her it was ok. It really did work! I was amazed! I know it's not exactly the same thing but thought it might be worth mentioning.

She has always been a handful! They didn't mention the tantrums at the last parents' evening so I guess it is a relatively new thing. She kicked off last night over pasta!! It was truly horrible - screaming, shouting, throwing things, really really fuming! Her three-year-old sister waggling her fork at her didn't help!!!!
I just about kept my cool but it was really really hard. She was naughty again this morning before school and doesn't seem to get that a "final warning" means that we have to follow through with the punishment (her lego torch was put in the bin!) and then she goes absolutely livid when the threat is carried out.
I've tried calm talking and being a blinkin' saint! Shouting back is counterproductive - and they can't do that at school. She's a bright girl so she knows what is acceptable but she can't seem to control herself.
I wonder what is going on in her head. I was really careful to be "super mummy" after school - we did baking and played marble-run so she had plenty of attention... and then it all went wrong!!! ARGH!

This is not said to scare you or make more of the problem, but it might be worth seeing the gp. Firstly to rule out any physical conditions that might be present and making her more volatile (I'm always tetchy when in pain or ill. Secondly to see if they can help with the anger itself. I'm sure giving her positive attention will help but it might take a while. Hang on in there and I hope the school takes an empathetic approach. No child deliberately behaves like that and it's their responsibility along with you to help her, not blame her.

Btw-if it's that she can't control herself and punishments aren't working then they in themselves might be counter productive. Hard to know what to do but getting to her level and letting her know you love her and want to help is never going to be wrong. I speak as someone who has done threats and punishments. Does she respond to sticker charts? One per tantrum free day and a small reward for several in a row? Might help to break the pattern.

Try reading The Explosive Child (can't remember the author). It might give you a different way of thinking about and talking to your DD about her behaviour.

Thank you!
Reward charts aren't working. We've planned a treat to the cinema with Daddy - but only if she has no "black mark" days but she can't seem to control herself and just pushes it too far until she gets the black mark. Then she goes mad and says sorry but it's too late by then.
I'll look out the Explosive Child - sums her up!
I don't think she has any physical issues -she is well and can behave beautifully when she is getting her own way, but in a family setting or at school, she can't always do what she wants.

I would avoid punishments in this instance, you need to be rewarding her when she keeps her cool and articulates her anger. Take the torch out the bin and attempt to start again. I would very unhappy with the teachers responce to this, they should be putting measures in place to ensure your dds inclusion, not deciding her position in the class in at steak, especially if this is a new behaviour. I would be worried that the stem of the problem is school, either struggling with friendships, bullying, not keeping up or she is ahead of what she is being taught. I would ask to speak to the teacher to discuss her general progress and how the school are supporting her with this.

What does she say about it when she is calm? How does she feel? Would she listen (in a calm moment) to ideas about how to keep herself from exploding?

She is probably a little big young for it, but my DS, who can also be provoked into "exploding" at school, found this book really helpful.

We've tried the "count to ten" way of cooling down - doesn't work
We ask her to sit on the floor and calm and take deep breaths - makes her furious! She just refuses to sit down!
If we ignore her and walk away, she starts damaging things!
She won't respond to instruction and nice requests when she is throwing a wobbly - it's really frustrating!

..but what does she say about it when she's not mid-tantrum? Does she acknowledge that it happens? DS, when calm, would say that he found his anger quite scary, because he couldn't control it, so he was very receptive to learning how to be in charge of it, IYSWIM. Techniques to control anger need to be taught/learned when calm - it is no good trying to tell them anything once they see red...

Our dd didn't get much success with reward charts until we started forgetting the days she didn't manage to do whatever it was. We don't have days on ours now-it's a plain piece of paper with blank shapes drawn on it and she colours one in when she's managed to do whatever it is. Then when she has seven she gets a treat. Helps all of us focus on the success when the other days are t permanently recorded. But some children respond better than others to reward charts and the like.

I agree with seeing the doctor and asking for pofessional help. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your DD, just that she needs a bit of extra help in this area.

I also don't think that throwing away toys as a punishment is the way to go. My DH has threatened things like that in the heat of the moment but I always give him "the look" and he rethinks. It's easy when you don't know what to do to threatened the thing which you thing will upset your child the most to try to get through to them but I think throwing away a favourite toy is just too harsh. Taking away for a while is a different matter.

What was it about the pasta that made her have a tantrum? What other sorts of things set her off?

DS is a FURIOUS child! He has a terrible temper and he too, has no concept that the final threat will happen and thus is even worse when we follow through. For that reason we tend not to make threats and punish but we reward the good behaviour. If his behaviour is unacceptable he is told, given a warning and then taken to a different place. At home that is his bedroom. One of us goes with him, a sort of 'Time in' rather than a "Time out" IYSWIM. We also found that DS did not undersatnd the concept of a reward chart with stickers, it was too abstract, so we used coins. We actually used 10p pieces and a jar to drop them in because DS wanted a particular toy and was saving for it but we have since thought about a token system.

We also got a chart from ebay about calming down, it had steps on it that DS could follow. He was then not being told by us what to do. DS hated losing his temper, it made him feel utterly out of control and distressed that he would do this. By having a chart he was in control. He also has a traffic light system. Green, yellow and red and he knows if he is heading into red he can ask to go and be by himself. We talk about blowing the crossness away to encourage him to breathe.
I should add that DS is being investigated for ASD.
Sometimes, when he was in a meltdown, OH or I would envelop him in a hug and really squeeze him so he knew we were there.

A good day today - just put her to bed and thanked her for being lovely and she looked really proud.
I'll take all your comments on board.
On the walk home from school, I asked her to think about why she got so mad (she said she didn't know) and to tell me when she had it figured out.

That sounds great

Glad you had a better day!

I meant to add that DS has been able to explain to us that when a threat is made ie losing a toy he then worries about that and gets stressed about it and thus cannot then focus on what he is meant to be doing.......
I also found it helpful to give DS words for his feelings and we talk about how his body feels when he is cross.

neverputasockinatoaster My brother sounds like your dc. My brother I strongly suspect is undiagnosed ASD (he's 42) and was never taught how to deal with his temper. If my parents did all those things that you are doing, which sound great by the way, his life would be so different now. Sounds like you are doing great!

My dd is 7.9 rs and is exactly the same but we found the school was no help, for all their sticker chart and timeouts they were actually alienating her which was making it worse and also the other kids worked out very quickly how to wind her up or worse just blame her when it wasn't her at all but the teachers always thought the worst of her. So we moved her to another school and told them fully how she was and the problems with the teachers. She has now been at her new school for 1 year and is a new child, we have the odd issue but generally she seems more able to listen and we too use alot of praise and rewards, which her new school uses, and she has responded very well to that. I honestly feel since the day she was born that i now love my dd and don't feel like she is a problem anymore. She is so kind and loving and so unbeleivably helpful

She sounds like both my dc's. I was very lucky the school provided them both with anger management classes. This involved one to one were they talked about feelings and what to do when they felt angry.

We are having a TERRIBLE day with her today. Refusing to listen or look us in the eye, screaming, answering back, laughing when we try to tell her off or give her guidance... just horrific. Almost a bit pyscho like in a scary film- I'm just about ready to break down in front of her (being 9 months pregnant doesn't help). I'm almost struggling to have her near me today... though I'm not letting this show. I firmly believe that this isn't having an impact on her behaviour as I'm being super-calm but ARGH!
She said that she would rather be naughty than have the cream egg she had been promised.
I agree that there are a couple of children in her class who know how to wind her up but I think that her teacher is actually really good news.

I'm going to book a doctor's appointment for her next week. She has always been a tricky little sod but its so bad at the moment. Probably a lot to do with the baby, the fact that her sister (aged nearly 4) is sticking up for herself, having to share a bedroom (to make room for the baby due on 1st Feb)
I think she probably isn't ASD but is in some way hyper-sensitive. Find me a mother who doesn't think their child is bright... she is very articulate and loves writing stories and has a great imagination but she really doesn't care if she upsets people - zero empathy (is that a ASD trait?)
We also have issues with bed-wetting but I think that is unrelated and we don't make a scene about it (my twin sister was a bedwetter and she remembers terrible shame so we're just acting like it is normal. We've tried all sorts of things so I'll raise that with the doc as well)
Thank goodness for Mumsnet - this is calming me down!!!!

narnalisa I sympathize with you! My DS, he is only 3.9yo, can be described similarly. I also don't he he has ASD but probably has some traits which makes him very difficult to handle. I think what neverputasockinatoaster is advising, is great!
neverputasockinatoaster, how this calm chart is called exactly? I was trying to look for it on ebay, but could not find.

Is there not a way that she could keep her own bedroom - with your dd2 and the baby sharing instead (when he/she is old enough to move out of your room)?

Such a lot of changes going on must be rather overwhelming, and tied in with the 6year old hormones could be tricky. By this I mean dd, who is usually pretty even tempered, goes through phases of intense weepiness contrasted with anger every now and then, which I put down to getting older, possible hormone rush and tiredness. She is noticeably more volatile when tired, and perhaps your dd is not sleeping as well in a shared bedroom?

I was going to suggest th same re. room sharing as Pooka.