Sleep troubles - Bedtime and In the night

[Brussells]

Brief intro to our situation:
2 Yr old.
Won't go to sleep in the evening, after a routine (8pm, teeth, story, milk, light out) without Daddy being in the room, either with hand gently on back, or holding childs hand.
During night, waking routinely at about 2am, and early morning (5-6am). BIG mistake was that we've been putting her in our bed, then once asleep (deep sleep), moving her back to her bed.....for a couple hours until she wakes and realises she's not in our bed again.

Read up on Supernanny site about method where you have a sleepy cushion for me, and gradually over the coming nights move further away. This should then eliminate any anxiety.

First attempt last night - put into bed, settled down, 20 minutes later was able to get up and leave the room once she was asleep.
Slept through the usual 2am wake up - YAY
Woke about 5:30am, crying.
Went in, put her in bed, kiss, cuddle, say 'it's sleepy time', and sat on the cushion.
She got straight up crying, and climbed out of bed.
Second time, brief kiss, put back into bed.
Third time, just pick her up, put back in bed, sit on pillow. Maintaining no eye contact all the time.
After about 20 times of putting her back into bed, she started to stop crying and constantly getting out of bed, and just sat on the side of the bed.
She then wanted a drink as her throat sounded sore from crying. I got up to get her cup, and she laid down. Didn't want her water and proceeded to go to sleep.
I then made the fatal mistake of getting up too quickly as she wasn't asleep enough, and heard me leaving.
Then pursued another bout of crying, and calling for me, but remained stood on the bed.
Then she was scratching her eczema on her arms. I couldnt sit there and her here scrathing herself so I got cream, put on her arms, keeping no eye contact and saying nothing.
Sat back on the cushion.
Then it was a runny nose, and needed wiping.
Eventually I wiped her nose, patted my hand on the pillow and she laid down, and started sleeping. A quick rub on her back and she was sleeping.
It was then a matter of leaving it long enough for her to go back to sleep, before I got up. I failed a couple times, got up too soon, but eventually mad it back to bed for an hours sleep before it was time to wake up.

Feel that the night went well, with relative success, but I'm concerned I'm not doing the middle of the night thing correctly.
Anyone have any advice please? Will try again tonight and hopefully in a few days time the sleepy cushion should be nearer the door, and she'll settle better in the night.

Bless you, have been there with DS1. It did work for us in the end, took about 2 weeks before i was out the door completely.

With the routine 2am wake up have you tried waking her at say 1pm (rousing not waking up)? Have heard this can break the pattern of wake ups. Did this with DS1 recently (now 3.5 years and sleep up the spout again since the arrival of DS2!) and it worked after 2 nights.

DS2 sleeps like a dream at 3 months and has done since 6 weeks, i did nothing different with him than DS1, who didn't sleep through until 2!

Night number two update....
Bedtime routine, went to sleep straight away (but then there wasn't a daytime sleep yesterday so was very sleepy).
Slept through the 2am wake up again.....Hooray!
Woke at 6am. Walked into our room, no crying.
I walked her back, told her it was 'sleepies time', kiss, cuddle and she laid down. I sat on the pillow and she drifted off to sleep. No tears this time.
Made the mistake of getting up too quickly and she heard me leaving.

Sat back down on the cushion and she laid down, and slept.
Managed to get back to bed after about 20 minutes.
10 minutes later she was back beside our bed again.
Walked her back, she laid down and slept. Again, no tears.
I made sure she was asleep and left.
7:30am she comes in, and I get up (it's a reasonable time to be getting up).

So all in all, going well (so far).
We've also introduced a 'sleep in your own bed' star sticker reward system. Star sticker for staying in her own bed all night. That seems to be working too.

Thanks dribbleface (great login name by the way). If she continues to sleep through the 2am wake up we should be ok. If she goes back to it then we'll try the rousing her before 2am to see if that works.

Does her ezcema make her wake at 2am?

Also can you tell her you're leaving at bedtime? we had a similar routine to yours but started saying to DS we were going after he'd relaxed a bit. He had a real thing about us coming back so we always came back if he called but kept the response boring. Now he knows we come back if need be and we can leave and he's fine (he gets upset if we sneak out)

We're in a v similar position with our 2 year old DD. she was always such a good sleeper until she moved to a big bed then it all went wrong and she's in the processs of dropping her nap which has added to the problems.

We have found the Supernanny style back to bed works well at bedtime (if she's tired enough and hasn't had a late/long nap!) but I too am guilty of just bringing her into bed in the night.

I don't know if it's better to sit with her when she wakes in the night or keep going with the back to bed thing? She's often upset when she wakes so not sitting with her just upsets her further. Need to get it sorted as DC2 is due in the summer.

Sorry no advice, just lots of sympathy sounds like you are making good progress.

@Iggy. Not sure what was waking her to be honest. Could be the ezcema, I guess. We're trying to get it under control with creams so that could be helping.

I've been saying I'll sit on the cushion until she sleeps. A while back I tried saying I would go after she settled down and she seemed to not be happy with getting into bed as she knew I'd be going. She appeared to lie in bed, sound as if she was asleep but was actually laying there with her eyes open.

I'm not sure she'd fully understand about calling us and us coming in to check on her. I think she'd still not be happy with us leaving before she slept, at the moment. Can I ask what age it was when you started that routine please?

I'll bear it in mind though, as once we get to stage where the cushion is nearing the door she'll need reassurance that we'll come back if she calls. Only thing is I see that the same as crying, somewhat - she knows that when she cries I would jump up and come straight to her (this was my mistake), not allowing her time to settle herself back down, which hopefully this routine is going to 'fix'.

@TeuchterInTheCity - I've heard that if the littl'un isn't happy with a bigger bed then go back to a cot until they are ready. Not sure whether that's going backwards, or whether it helps though. We simply had to remove one side of her cot bed though so it wasn't too much work. We also have a portable side on her bed too at the moment, so that may give her a more enclosed, safer feeling.

I looked at the back to bed advice too, but as with yours, she'd be too upset without someone next to her whilst she started to sleep. I think it's down to how anxious the child is. However, the method we're trying should stop the anxiety, and allow her to settle herself down to sleep without the need for someone to be there. I would say go with trying the sleepy cushion, retraction method. As like last night, there were no tears (so that'll be quiet for when you have DC2). And after a couple weeks you 'should' be able to just walk her back to bed and then leave her to settle herself (that's if she gets up anyway :) ) Theoretically she should settle back down, if she wakes (unless it's nightmares, wet bed, or illness). That's the impression I get from this method anyway (from what I've read)

Good luck, and I hope you find the method works (which ever one you try). I think it's a little trial and error too. Just be sure to give it long enough to try each one, and stay strong! Just remember that a little crying isn't going to traumatize them for life, and they'll soon become independent little sleepers in no time - and you'll get that full nights sleep once again.

We started it a bit younger but not consistently until DS was 2. He'd mess about if we sat in the chair but calmed if we were next to the bed with our hand on him. (he'd come and find us in the chair - we turn lights out before he falls asleep). So we now sit next to him for a bit then tell him we're going and it's night night. It didnt always work - but usually because he's upset or wound up so we stay. Otherwise we can leave and he drifts off quite quickly.

OK - night three wasn't as successful.
Bedtime worked well. Straight to sleep. Again afternoon kip so was very tired.
Midnight arrived and she woke, crying.
Went in to see and she'd kicked covers off, and felt cold.

Tucked back in, sat on the cushion, and she went to sleep again.
4am arrived with her walking into our room.
Walked back to her bed, but she was coughing (with croaky throat) and sniffing. Gave her a quick drink of water, and put her back in bed (kiss, cuddle, sat on cushion).
Back to bed for me, once she was asleep.
Heard her coughing again, and 10 minutes later she was back into us.
Walked back to bed, despite her asking for 'daddy bed'.
Got back into her bed, but asked for cream (scratching her arms - ezcema), water and tissue (runny nose). Did all three without her getting out of bed, but now I'm thinking things had gone beyond the method of bed, minimal contact, sleepy cushion.....
Settled back down, no protest and no tears.
Thought she was sleeping, but coughing kept making her fidget and sniffing every now and then.
I could tell she wasn't asleep.
30 minutes later and she's still coughing, and sniffing, and not sleeping.
At this point I took the decision to take her into our bed. She's got a blocked nose, and throaty cough, and didn't feel warm and snuggled.

I did tell her it was just for a little while and that she'd be back in her bed again tomorrow.
I'm wondering whether that was a bad decision now.
10 minutes later and my alarm goes off for work, and I leave her snuggled up with mummy.

Just hope I haven't ruined what we started. The truth will out tonight when I try and settle her back down, sleepy cushion, minimal contact, and no 'daddy bed'.

I'll make sure we get some baby menthol drops or wall plugin to try and ease the nasal blockage if she's still the same tonight. Hopefully that'll help her.

Not sure whether people want a running commentary of every night, if you're also trying this method......let me know please?
'Sleepy cushion' now moved a little further from the bed. Went to sleep straight away.
Snotty, runny nose and a cough however is waking her alot. Woke twice within a couple hours of bed.
Settled back down with me on the cushion, but was soon up again.
I decided, rather than put her in our bed, that I'd sleep on her floor, so she can stay in her bed.
She woke a fair few times, settled herself back down a lot of the time.
I got a better night sleep, as did she, as we weren't walking back and forth to beds, and she'll still get her good night star sticker :)
I left for work at 6am, and she woke just after 7am.....so not too bad a night.

Hi, am interested in your progress, DD1 is just turned 3 and last 10 nights all of a sudden bedtime has a become a tantrum nightmare... Screaming and crying, using any excuses possible not to stay in her bedroom and she always went down no problem before... we can't leave the room until she's asleep or have to leave her crying hysterically - can take two hours or more to get her to sleep though... (and during night time keeps getting in our bed - we have to take turns going to sleep in her room to get her back off) - tried sticker chart tonight, she's not interested... exhausted! Will look up Supernanny method - any other tips gratefullly received...

last update - cold and runny nose in full swing making sleeping difficult. Tuesday night resulted in 3 times awake, but did go back to her bed and sleep each time.
Bedtime has regressed somewhat - The sleepy cushion has moved back a step towards the bed, and there has been restlessness. Not sure whether this is due to not being able to settle due to blocked nose. I've tried to not be too interactive, and just sit there but it's constant 'drink', 'tissue'.....Knowing that more crying will make the nose run more has meant i've buckled a little and soothed her more. Generally though she is settling well, and I'm really pleased with the not sleeping in our bed. She'll actively say 'no daddy/mummy bed, my bed'. So a win on that front.

@Antdulwich - Do you have a bedtime routine? Half hour before bed, quieten down, bedtime story, milk...that kinda thing? Any afternoon naps? Also, has the bed changed in any way? Taken sides off a cot, new big bed maybe? Any change in routine, I've heard, can make a difference.

The supernanny method, of sleepy cushion, and slow withdrawal is tough at first, and you need to be strong (i've slipped on this the past few days due to the snotty/runny nose but will go back to it shortly). It'll also require the same routine in the night, by both of you (try and follow the exact same routine all the time). Maybe start on a weekend/Friday night to allow you a couple of rough nights, and rest time during the day. Hopefully after a couple nights she'll start to settle better. Although it may still take you an hour to get her settled, you'll hopefully see results, and get a better nights sleep. I would say also, that you should try not to sleep in her room. I understand it's tiring, and to sit up a couple times in the night waiting for her to sleep will have an impact, but she needs to know that you're not going to stay there all night. I really hope things get better for you, and I'd be really happy to hear about how it goes - either on this thread or on your own started one. Good luck to you. You'll get there!

Well it's a couple more nights passed now, and things are more or less back on track prior to the runny nose, and restless nights.
We had one night of not wanting to get into bed, waking alot, and me eventually having to sleep on the floor just to get some sleep.
Last night was the complete opposite, I'm glad to say.
Straight to sleep at bedtime, no not wanting to go etc.
She even asked Daddy to sit on the sleepy cushion, so that shows she understands what's going on.
During night woke a couple times, but second time was 6:30am, and that eventually became get up time, as she wouldn't really settle.
Came into us, I walked her back and she went straight back into bed. Instead of asking for daddies hand she said 'daddy cushion' again.
Just need to now try it with the cushion further away. I need to think about a better night light too, as I don't think she can see me with only the small light on the baby monitor as the only light on. I 'think' this is why she got upset last time I'd tried moving it further away.
Will try again tonight.

Not sure whether others have done this method, successfully, but would interested to hear back from others. Also, is her saying 'sleepy cushion' and therefore being reliant on me to sit there, right? Or is she now building up a reliance on me being there? Saying that, I guess I was sitting there before but I'm actually distancing my contact and interaction with her.

Any thoughts and questions please add to this thread. Would love to hear others stories on success / failings with this method please.

Odd one last night - bedtime routine as always, and she turned to me and said 'no daddy cushion'. I asked her where she would like daddy to sit, expecting her to say 'daddy hand' or something, but she didn't reply. I then gave her the option, daddy cushion, or outside the door, or daddy cover (there's a blanket folded up (from my sleeping on the floor), across the other side of her room. This is the one she chose. Although she was very tired so I'm not sure she would have noticed even if I'd just put her down to bed and walked out. Either way, I'm 'hoping' that it's a step forward as she doesn't rely on me being sat so close. Will move the cushion further away tonight, and see what she says.
Woke once in the night, but straight back to bed. I actually fell asleep on the sleepy cushion and she woke me at about 7am this morning. I must have been exhausted :D

brussells Well done! It sounds like you've made great progress. I've been trying to solve my DS's sleep problems over the past couple of weeks (he is 15mo and was spending most nights in with us wriggling so much none of us were getting any sleep!) We didn't try this method as I think he is a bit young, but whichever method you go for, it's a long few days when you get hardly any sleep/fall asleep on their bedroom floor,isn't it?! I've nothing really to add but just wanted to say well done to you and DD

Thank you newonupnotheheath for the vote of confidence.

I know what you mean about wriggling and not getting much sleep. I remember the nights when DD would be laid cross ways across the bed, with a foot in my face, or back. That was when I knew something had to be done.
15mo, IMHO, doesn't sound too young to try this. If you search for supernanny website, there are video clips from the TV show, and one in particular shows a young child, in a cot, and the parent doing this exact method. Look for the 'Sleep Seperation Technique'. I can send you a link, if I'm allowed to put a link on this thread? (not sure about website/forum rules). I should re-watch it to make sure I'm doing this right still.
It doesn't detail the 'in the middle of the night' technique, but it's fundamentally the same, and as I put in the first entry on this thread. (I'll try and remember where this part was).

I really hope you find the method for you, and my posts helpful. It'll be great to hear what method you find works for you, and any hints/tips, and to finally hear the sounds of success (snoring baby in their own bed, all night)!

OK, things going OK. Still waking once or twice in the night but straight to bed.....apart from if my other half tries to put her back down.
She's becoming very dependent on Daddy doing it, and gets very upset.
Unfortunately I'm normally out of the house for work in the mornings, before she wakes, and get home late (long commute). Therefore I've been doing bedtime routine just to spend some time seeing her. However now it's come back to bite us, and DD doesn't want mummy to put her to bed.
This is very upsetting for mummy now, and I'm a little lost as to how to get round this, without disrupting what has been working of late. I know she'll cry and call for me if mummy puts her to bed.

Should probably start another thread for this, asking for advice and thoughts, but it's kind of related also. Will need to just try and get DD to be happy with mummy doing things too. Thoughts please?

Hi, my DD was exactly the same: to this day, she prefers daddy to read her bedtime stories and put her to bed instead of me, and she is nearly 6. I believe this stems from him being the one to relent and let her into bed when she was younger: from the ages of 2 - 5 she was an early riser (5.30am), and where I'd have let her cry, DH couldn't stomach it, so he'd fetch her out of bed and into ours. She still perceives him as the softer touch, and I think for this reason, gravitates towards him at bedtime. I could be wrong. Maybe she just likes him better! It used to hurt my feelings but in time I accepted that she just prefers DH putting her to bed. I don't think she'll change now. I think she'll be a daddy's girl forever. Sorry if this is not what you want to hear. It is hard. I just try to remember how great it is that DD has two hands-on parents, and you should be proud too... I'm still shocked at how many DPs have nothing to do with bedtime routines at all. Good luck.

@Sunnydale - Thanks for your reply. Appreciate your honesty. I guess it's kind of a known thing - 'daddy's girl' or 'mummy's boy'

Tonight it's actually mummy putting her to bed. Earlier in the day I said to DD 'mummy's sad as she couldn't put you to bed'. 'Mummy would be very happy if she could put you to bed'. And she's fully understood. She's into the happy and sad understanding at the moment. So when I asked her later who's putting you to bed, she said mummy! I'm amazed just how amazing and understanding children are. This is my first child and it amazes me with the things she says and does, at 2 yrs old!!

So mummy's putting DD to bed :) Yay!

So after such a great success of getting DD to sleep, with mummy doing bedtime routine, I thought I was in for a good night.
How I was wrong!
She woke three times, cold, rasping cough, oh joy! Wouldn't settle back down after the 6:20am wake up. (I swear it's getting earlier by the day).
Really struggling on what covers to use, as she appears to be kicking everything off, no matter what we put on her bed, then gets cold. Wakes up, wont settle herself and comes into us.
Have to say though it's straight back to her bed - so thanks Supernanny for that advice.
Sleepy Cushion's moving gradually further from the bed. Another step closer to the door tonight.

Been a few nights since I last updated. Nothing really new has happened. I've not succeeded in getting the cushion nearer the door. Daughter still appears to need that initial visual check that I'm still there before she settles down.

Saying that, she settles in about 5 minutes.

So, it seems we've 90% achieved what we set out to do.
She doesn't sleep in our bed, at all, through the night now.
And, bed time there's no 'daddy hand' to hold, and I'm half the way across the room (makes it easier to leave the room, as there are less creaky floorboards to walk on).
During the night the routine is the same, with the majority of times being 5 minutes to settle back down.

Only real issue is the runny, blocked nose, and cough. This is probably waking her more often than she should. If she didn't have this she'd probably sleep all the way through.

Covers wise the quilt appears to be ok, as the temperature has been about right through the night.

I hope my little log of our goings on has at least helped, even if only a little. The sleepy cushion method has definitely eased my night time stress, and generally we're all sleeping better.

WOW! A full nights sleep without waking \o/ YAY!

Really interested to read about your successful efforts Brussells .

DS (18 months) currently needs one of us in the room for him to go to sleep at night. He then usually sleeps through. We'd love to be able to leave the room while he goes to sleep, particularly because it can take a while...

You have the patience of a saint.

@RecursiveMoon Glad you found it of interest. I'm still not at the stage of being able to leave the room. The only benefit is that she's very reassured now that I'll be sat on the sleepy cushion so tends to sleep within 5 minutes (I know, as I tend to count to myself just to pass the time, and after 5 minutes I can get up, and walk out, listening to a snoring baby). That said, maybe the reliance on the sleepy cushion could work against us as we try and get to a point of not being in the room whilst she settles. It's a hard choice - try and move on, and potentially loss what we've got so far, or accept the fact that it'll take 5 minutes to settle her.

@Mobly - Thank you. These methods do require a lot of patience, but the rewards are worth it in the end.

We've had a lot of problems with DS's sleep (so much so that we had to get a sleep specialist to help us when he was 6 months old ), so overall we're really pleased with his sleep now. We've never managed to not be in the room when he falls asleep though, and would like to tackle that next.

I can see the method that you're using working in principle, but I worry about the stage when you leave the room / aren't visible any more - this seems like a very big step that your DD might object to?