Sleep troubles - Bedtime and In the night

[Brussells]

Brief intro to our situation:
2 Yr old.
Won't go to sleep in the evening, after a routine (8pm, teeth, story, milk, light out) without Daddy being in the room, either with hand gently on back, or holding childs hand.
During night, waking routinely at about 2am, and early morning (5-6am). BIG mistake was that we've been putting her in our bed, then once asleep (deep sleep), moving her back to her bed.....for a couple hours until she wakes and realises she's not in our bed again.

Read up on Supernanny site about method where you have a sleepy cushion for me, and gradually over the coming nights move further away. This should then eliminate any anxiety.

First attempt last night - put into bed, settled down, 20 minutes later was able to get up and leave the room once she was asleep.
Slept through the usual 2am wake up - YAY
Woke about 5:30am, crying.
Went in, put her in bed, kiss, cuddle, say 'it's sleepy time', and sat on the cushion.
She got straight up crying, and climbed out of bed.
Second time, brief kiss, put back into bed.
Third time, just pick her up, put back in bed, sit on pillow. Maintaining no eye contact all the time.
After about 20 times of putting her back into bed, she started to stop crying and constantly getting out of bed, and just sat on the side of the bed.
She then wanted a drink as her throat sounded sore from crying. I got up to get her cup, and she laid down. Didn't want her water and proceeded to go to sleep.
I then made the fatal mistake of getting up too quickly as she wasn't asleep enough, and heard me leaving.
Then pursued another bout of crying, and calling for me, but remained stood on the bed.
Then she was scratching her eczema on her arms. I couldnt sit there and her here scrathing herself so I got cream, put on her arms, keeping no eye contact and saying nothing.
Sat back on the cushion.
Then it was a runny nose, and needed wiping.
Eventually I wiped her nose, patted my hand on the pillow and she laid down, and started sleeping. A quick rub on her back and she was sleeping.
It was then a matter of leaving it long enough for her to go back to sleep, before I got up. I failed a couple times, got up too soon, but eventually mad it back to bed for an hours sleep before it was time to wake up.

Feel that the night went well, with relative success, but I'm concerned I'm not doing the middle of the night thing correctly.
Anyone have any advice please? Will try again tonight and hopefully in a few days time the sleepy cushion should be nearer the door, and she'll settle better in the night.

"I can see the method that you're using working in principle, but I worry about the stage when you leave the room / aren't visible any more - this seems like a very big step that your DD might object to?"

@RecusiveMoon - Agreed. This is my worry too. Especially as the door isn't directly opposite her bed, and view will be hidden once I move close to the door. That said, I wonder whether as long as she knows I'm definitely sat there, out of view (there will be a few times she gets out of bed to check I'm there), then she'll be reassured I've not gone. I guess the truth will be in the pudding, as they say. I'll just have to try moving the cushion further away, and see how she copes. (will let you know how it goes).

I've enjoyed reading your posts and really glad you've had success! My dd is 6mo and currently won't settle without me and wakes up in the night! I'm reluctant to use the controlled crying or pick up put down methods at the moment but when she is older would be happier and more confident to use the approach you are having read your posts. Thank you :)

OK, I think I must have jinx'd it - Took two hours to get DD to sleep last night!! Moved the sleepy cushion a little further away, and I think she couldn't see me (too dark). After that she seemed to lie down for 3-4 minutes then get out of bed again ( I lost count how many times). I 'think' she was checking if I was there, and wasn't sure each time. So, that confirms exactly what was being said yesterday......the sleepy cushion stays where it is, and we face the fact that at the moment we're going to have to stay put! I'm happy to do so, until she returns to going to sleep in 5 minutes routine which was going great up until last night :) I really, really hope I've not lost what we had and she'll return to routine tonight.......fingers crossed.

@er1507 - Thanks for letting me know you've enjoyed reading. I've not glossed over the method and tell it how it is. I would say, despite some issues, that the method has been successful, to a degree, and there's still work to do. However, not having DD in bed with us each night is a WIN, no doubt about that. The sleepy cushion works, and I'm just glad we didn't have to go to CC (although I have heard good results about it, no matter how brutal it can initially be on your emotions). I really hope you have some success with the method and would be happy to hear back as to how it goes.

I'm sure that you haven't jinxed anything Brussells. When we've made an effort to change something about DS's sleep, he's generally improved over time, but not always linearly.

Good luck.

Just to add that our sleep specialist told us to pop in and out of the room as DS falls asleep (so a different method to yours Brussells). We're considering trying it, but it's hard to decide to rock the boat when everything is quite good.

Well, I'm pleased to say 'service was resumed' last night. Normal routine, asleep in 5 minutes.
Woke a couple times in the night but snots has now turned to cough, so she's waking herself coughing a little. Also I think she kicked covers off in her sleep and got cold. No problem thou as she was back in bed, asleep in 5mins.
I'm happy now :)

@RecursiveMoon - I'd read about the popping back in method. I guess it'll work as long as little one doesn't start crying the instant you walk out. Our DD would, as we've tried. The only thing I thought about the other night was, I got up off the cushion to get some tissue (I've caught her cold), told her to stay in bed, and try and sleep, and I'd be back in a minute. On my returning I actually stood outside the door for a good few minutes before she realized I'd not come back, and started crying. It may well be that this could be the next step to try. Just say I'll pop back in a minute..... As you say though, difficult to know whether to change what you have already set up. I'd need to read up more on the method as to knowing whether to return, or how often you should, and for how long you leave it. Definitely worth a thought though, thanks.

Crikey, DH had DS this afternoon - he put him down for his nap, then left the room and DS fell asleep! And we're just trying the same thing now for nighttime sleep!

On the one hand, Hurray! On the other hand, we now feel like we've been distracting him while he usually tries to fall asleep .

@RecursiveMoon - Tentatively waiting to hear how it went please? :) Did you manage to replicate the 'leaving the room' method, with success?

Yes, somewhat amazingly, it's working so far ! We put him down after his naptime or bedtime routine, say 'Sleepy time, Night night', then leave the room. If he cries properly, we go back in, lay him down, say the same thing, then leave the room again (sometimes we don't need to go back in at all; last night I had to go back in 3x - he doesn't get super-upset though, he just cries then stops when you go back in).

It's odd, we tried to start to leave the room as he fell asleep a few months ago, but it made him too upset. It just feels like he's ready now, whereas he wasn't ready before.

Brussells, how is your DD now, and how is her sleep?

It's really hard when they're poorly, and it can really throw any sleep progress too. I'm not sure what the opposite of night weaning is, but we did it when DS had a series of illnesses, then had to night wean him all over again.

@RecursiveMoon - WOW! that's great news. Glad you've now moved onto that stage of being able to walk out. Really pleased it's working out.

RE: DD - No longer snotty or poorly, however after a few days away, and irregular sleeping (new bed, new place, roughly a sleepy cushion routine), we're back to restless bedtime routine. Last night she just would not settle without being sat close to her bed. Hoping it's just another glitch in what was becoming a nice routine.

Just starting to feel a little down about the whole thing now as it doesn't appear to be moving forward, and at times it's backwards! I know I need to maintain consistency but I'm losing patience. Still been waking at least once in the night - not sure why. Could be too hot, too cold..... who knows :)

Brussells, you've done really well so far - keep going and you'll get there in the end .

We try to keep reminding ourselves that DS might regress a bit now and then, and that that's okay. And we're still a bit bemused by his recent progress TBH.

@RecursiveMoon - Thank you, great to hear some kind words. I'll keep going :) Asleep in 5 minutes tonight, with me sat, on sleepy cushion in about the same place as the other week, so I'm pleased. Let's see how the night goes....

OK, that was a relatively normal night. DD woke once, at about 1:30am, crying. I went in, settled her back down and she was snoring away after 5 minutes. Took myself back to bed, and laid awake for about an hour! :D I wish I could settle as quickly as she does :p The main thing though is that she wasn't getting in and out of bed for hours, so I'm pleased. Just need a couple more nights and then I'll try moving the cushion further from her bed (just enough so she can still see me, but I'm closer to the door). Phew!

That's good news Brussells .

I was just thinking some random thoughts about your DD's sleep. What do you do when she wakes up? We offer DS a glass of water to underline the fact that we're not offering him milk. Could she be cold? Our heating is all over the place at the moment, grr. Does she always wake up at the same time? Could she be being woken up by the heating turning on or something else noisy?

I quite like the 'they'll expect to go to sleep in the same way when they wake up in the night as they do at the beginning of the night' theory, which in your DD's case is with you sitting on the sleepy cushion. If it's true, at least you're heading in the right direction (i.e. out of the door )!

We had a rubbish night last night, awake for 1.5hours at 3am, Calpol, milk, then co-sleeping! I think his room was too cold though.

@RecursiveMoon - When she wakes up in the night, she'll either cry or come into us (I'm a light sleeper so normally hear her footsteps as she comes in). I'll then walk her back to bed, or walk into her room. We have water on hand each night, more so when she was coughing, and we have cream for her ezcema, and tissue for her nose. Sometimes she'll settle without needing anything other than me being sat on the cushion. She's been settling straight back down, even after wet jammies last night from a leaky nappy.
Some nights, recently,I think she may have gotten a little cold, but we're trying different combos of blankets, covers, sheets.....problem is it's warm when she goes to bed, but temp drops a lot through the night.
Wake up time is different each night - we'd have broken that routine if it were happening all the same time :D

Routine works exactly the same as bedtime and nighttime waking, which as you say, is all good!

I've been researching oil-filled and non-oil-filled radiators for DS's room today - our heating was okay until recently, but we can't get it quite right at the moment. So, I think that a radiator with a thermostat in DS's room might be a good idea. (Also, we'd be a bit stuck if our boiler broke down.) We'll also take it with us when we visit our relatives who seem to have very cold houses!

at taking a radiator with us when we visit relatives, maybe I should head over to the 'most PFB things that you've done thread'. ..

@RecursiveMoon - No worries about the radiator. We have a small one for emergencies.....I find they tend to dry the air a little for some reason, so we've even used a humidifier at the same time.

Feel this thread may be coming to the end, as I've charted our attempts of troublesome sleep, and tried to see whether this sleepy cushion works. We're at a stage where we accept (for the time being) that we'll sit on the sleepy cushion for 5-10 minutes whilst DD settles, bedtime and through the night......and no more sleeping in mummy and daddy bed :)

To end on a good note - TWO FULL NIGHTS SLEEP! I can't believe it! DD slept through all night, for the past two nights. I can't remember when that last happened :D
Just need to sort out the early mornings now..... 7am, and 6:45am.... :D

Would like to quickly thank everyone who commented and followed this thread. It really helped to have some feedback, and I hope my threads helped those who may be attempting this same method, and you achieved similar, or better, results. If you're still having troubles, keep it up, be patient as there'll always be a result, and don't lose faith.

Good luck Brussells .

OK, I know I said this thread was drawing to a close, but there's progress!
The other night I asked DD if she would be happy for me to move the cushion to be outside her door, with door open (I'd be out of her line of sight by doing so). I said it would be a big girl thing to do, and I'd be very happy if she could. She said she'd be happy for me to do that, and so I did. And she went straight to sleep, no getting out of bed to check I was still there......WIN!
Thought it was a one off, as she was pretty tired anyway, so thought she'd play up next night.
Got to bed time, normal routine, and then she actually placed the 'sleepy cushion' back in the new place, and said daddy sleepy cushion! I was gobsmacked!!
And so, last night, normal bed rountine, got out of bed once (after a couple minutes), put her back, and she was snoring in 5 minutes!
So my initial fear of her being reliant on being able to see me, despite moving further from her, has been quashed! She can't see me in the new cushion position, and she appears to settle!
Next step, move it even further away! Maybe top of the stairs.
Only bad part is she appears to have the snots again, so woke a couple times (coughing), but went straight back to sleep, after I settled her, and sat on the cushion for literally two minutes.

Fab news!