My 5 year old, much loved dd, is honestly at times a horrible, horrible child.

[Petraperfect]

I honestly don't know where to go from here.

She screams, she tantrums, she hits me. Everything is a battle. Going to the supermarket to buy a Christmas Tree this morning I was hit, smacked and pushed throughout the entire trip. This was because I refused to buy her cuddly toy.

She stays awake until ten, shouting for me to come to her for a drink, toilet, cuddle, whatever.

We probably have three meltdowns a day, where she is totally beside herself and out of control. Screaming, shouting, telling me she hates me, threatening to hit me.

She has always been quite high maintenance but this is a fairly recent development. The sheer volume and intensity of her anger is frightening.

My ds who is 8 was actually trying to stand between her and me this morning as he was so distressed by the way she was going for me. Obviously I told him it was not his job to do this and reassured him that I was not being hurt.

I honestly don't know where to go from here, I am shouting more and more and feel that at times these situations are totally out of both of our control.

Anyone else going through this, I adore my child but I am actually becoming frightened of her tantrums and I never thought I would be like this. I am not the type to back down from them though and so the intensity increases. I honestly do not know the best way to handle her now. Time out works, in that she will calm down, cry and say sorry but within an hur or two is building up to the next one.

Believe me when I say that she does not stop. For example she asked for a drink of water 5 times tonight, each time she got a sip, in the end I said no as it was late and time for bed. She screamed continuously for a drink then for half an hour and only stopped when she fell asleep.

Does this sound familiar to anyone because I am just so sad that this is happening to us as we have always been so close .

Oh Petra, its obvious we adore and cherish our DCs but it can be hard. I think most parents think the same when they are asleep. Horrible feeling in my stomach. All I have done since Saturday (it seems and probably in fact) is shout and scream and I loathe myself :(

Am off to bed but will have a look tomorrow and hope you feel better.

I do when we are at home but the worst ones are in public and at bedtime, so things are usually very fraught although before bedtime was better tonight as I gave her plenty of warning AND she had a bath, which is unusual because we normally shower at swimming in the afternoon, maybe that soothed her, however she started after she had been in bed for a couple of hours over the drink. She seems to get locked into it. Believe me she can repeat the same sentence or phrase or scream about whatever grievance she might have for hours.

Thanks everyone for replying. It helps no end to read of others going through the same thing. I am also a lone parent and while their Dad is very much involved and sees them loads, it is me who gets the sharp end so to speak.

Faverolles the not talking about the tantrum seems to be a sensible thing. I do tend to do that in a "lets resolve this" kind of way. Maybe that just doesnt work with 5 year olds. I do try the no talking or ignoring thing and this seems to send her nuts. She will just rant on and on, repeating the same sentence over and over again, aaaarhhhhhhgggh!!!!!!

Ds does that too. If we put him in his room and ignore him, he'll throw things about while screaming "I'm CALM!" over and over again.

I think we got into a really negative cycle where I picked him up from school almost scared of how he would behave, and walking on eggshells while he's around :(
Having the chart for him and his older db and dsis has really helped to calm things, but most of all, shows me that it's not all bad.

I think when it comes down to it, some dc are more tricky than others. Ds has been a handful since birth. It's trial and error to work out how to handle them!

DD2 could and still can explode at silly things. The only cure I've found is to firmly send her to her room until she wants to be nice. Nice is a really wishy wash term to an adult, but she seemed to register that it meant in a pleasant enough frame of mind that the rest of the family want your company.
Sometimes she vanishes for 10 minutes, sometimes she'll start playing and I'll go and check on her sometime later.
It's no good reasoning with her. She has to remember the world doesn't revolve around her in her own sweet time.
Defiantly, home gets her letting go from being an absolute angel at school.
She's now 10 and yesterday she came home and said sorry for throwing a real strop that morning about not getting the right drink. I don't think she's ever said sorry, without being told to, before.

Dd is the same but with less hitting. Same age. Pita when not getting her way, an angel when we are all doing what she wants

Awww, blessya! It sounds so bloody hard and you are only doing what you think is best. I am like you wrt 'let's work this thing out' and have learned after looooots of failures, that in effect that is - don't do it! That way lies doooom!

So you know already that imposing sanctions works. Brilliant. Well done you for working that out yourself. Sometimes you just need the gentlest prod from someone else to remind you of what you already know.

You WILL get through this. You WILL get through this. Just let good old funky 'Retha remind you when you find yourself drifting back into the old bad habits.

"Ds does that too. If we put him in his room and ignore him, he'll throw things about while screaming "I'm CALM!" over and over again."

Oh, Faverolles, that made me really laugh, but in a bitterly 'that's so familiar' way. Like my DS, shouting last night at 3am (having been up since midnight): "I'm NOT TIRED!" Naaah, mate. Obviously. All five-year-olds need no more than four hours' sleep.

My son has erratic emotions but is out of control at school and at risk of being excluded, he is only 5. I am terribly worried for him. He is a challange at home but a million times worse at school. He doesnt complain about going to school he runs in every morning. I dont understand what is wrong with him. I took him to CAMHS for an assessment and was told he does not have any mental health issues. I was relieved but at the same time want answers. He is bright and does suprisingly well considering. He would be top of his class if he didnt attack teachers and kids verbally and pysically and did his work. It is having an impact on homelife. I dont want my 2 year old to copy him which he has picked up some bad things. the 6 week hol is unbearable but i cant put him in a holiday club because of his behaviour. I have a really bad feeling he is going to be excluded by christmas or in the new term. I dont know what would then happen. I cant home school him, it sounds bad but I like to keep him away from the other children as he is such a bad influence and ruins their day. If I am not in the room I can not trust him not to break something, or hurt his brother, he is very selfish and rarely shows any compassion, empathy or any care for other peoples feelings

This must be incredibly hard for you OP. It's difficult to know what could be the reason from a post on MN though. It may be that she's figured out this type of behaviour really pushes your buttons. I think this is more likely than her having a behavioural problem or type of SN because if that were the case she would be the same at school.

There will be some reason but it's not her fault or your fault so don't beat yourself up. And she's still young enough for this to be worked on and for a solution to be found.

Ok some of these might not be of help, both my girls have autism but found some of these helpful.

Be clear with her about what behaviours are not ok. Do this when she is calm and talk it though. We always assume kids knows the rules, sometimes they don't.

When in full meltdown mode say as little as possible. As an adult I hate people talking at me when I'm upset, kids are no different.

Have a safe time out place but also a safe calm down safe. Don't confuse the 2, calm down space is for dd to take herself too, time out is where you put them.

Don't take to places like supermarkets, unless you really have to.

Let dd know about changes that are happening, especially if she's involved in something, she needs time to finish what shes doing.

Don't yell if possible (harder said than done) but it gets no positive reaction.

Learn to walk away if you need to.

Make it clear physical attacks are not on, at all and be very clear what punishment will be, discuss before hand and then explain there is no warning for this, if she hits, kicks, bites there is no second chances , loss is instant (just don't tell her this when kicking off as it will get worse)

Give her ideas of how to calm down eg go to calm area, count to 10, hot a cushion ect.

Kids with autism, especially girls can hold it in at school and tend to kick it all off at home, it's quite a common problem, so just because she doesn't kick off at school, doesnt conclude no SN. There would be other signs though, just maybe not the kicking off type.

Just wanted to sympathise, my DS is only 3.5 but he has terrible violent tantrums that I find very hard to control.

Regarding the sending to the room thing. Lots of people say this to me but have you ever tried carrying a totally out of control kicking violent child upstairs and actually getting them to stay in their room?

Don't know what to suggest op, but just wanted to say you are not the only mum going through this type of thing - seems there are a lot of us!

My DS was like this, I was actually scared of his tantrums.

I have learned to have very clear boundaries (we NEVER buy toys or sweets in the supermarket, bedtime is ALWAYS 7, he can have a sports bottle of water next to his bed for when he's thirsty at night, he is allowed to come out ONCE for the toilet, if he hits me or anyone he goes straight to his room until he has calmed down and said sorry).

I also need to keep his blood sugar stable, as he gets them often when hungry, i found. So he always gets a cracker or biscuit and fruit after school, so he is not "beyond starving" before tea.

He is now 9 and a lot calmer.

I have often sat down with him, after a tantrum to explain that it is O.k. to feel frustrated and angry, it is normal even, but it is not o.k. to lash out. It IS o.k. to voice your frustration without shouting and hitting. He thinks this is reasonable. I also sometimes have to acknowledge his frustration, so I say "I understand you feel really angry about this". for him it was really important that I understand him, and that he feels I listen.

The tantrums have almost gone now. probably age. But being very consistent really helps.

We had similar problems with our DD, although unlike your DD she was also very difficult at school. She was referred to a child psychologist who did a programme called Triple-P with us, which has helped hugely. It would probably be more useful for you to google it, than me to give a garbled summary, but one of the most useful things was realising that we were inadvertently rewarding her bad behaviour. There were lots of things she would do (screaming, rudeness etc) that I felt she had to be pulled up on, but by learning to ignore them (not just by not saying anything but also by not showing any displeasure in my face or posture) she has become much easier and happier. The other very useful strategy was finding things to praise her for, even when it felt forced to do so.

I think that local authorities run Triple-P parenting classes that you can self-refer to.

hth

I agree with Lisad on most things, except for the avoiding supermarkets thing.
You can't avoid normal life situations because of the way a 5 yr old behaves!

I am sorry, I know it's hard sometimes, and I say this from recent experience, but you don't sound like you are in charge to me.
You say you are actually frightened by her tantrums, and feel bullied. Who is the adult here?

You say that you get exhausted arguing and negotiating. Don't argue, and don't negotiate.

Tell her well in advance what will be happening e.g a trip to the shops. Tell her what you expect of her, in advance, and what the consequence will be if your expectations are not met.
Then , give her some kind of responsibility, for instance have her help you write a shopping list. Let her add one or two things on to it that she wants. Tell her that she will get to put those things in the trolley if she behaves in the shop.
Take the list, and a pen. As you go around the shop, enlist her help to help you find the items, then cross them off the list in a big felt tip pen.
This helps to give them a feeling of being in control of something, and having a job.
This part is v. important: Praise every single thing she does right. Every minute she is walking around with you calmly checking the list, say "wow DD, you are doing such a great job! It's so much easier with you helping me!"

Any unacceptable behaviour receives one warning, with a reminder what the consequence will be.
Any repeat behavior will get the consequence, and this must happen.

In the case of hitting, this has to be dealt with with no warning, no second chance, no messing.

You can not allow a child to hit you. She probably knows you are scared of her, and is actually horrified that she has this much power over you. You are supposed to be in charge.

I dealt with hitting when my ds was two. If he hit me, I would immediately put him in his cot and walk away.
He did it maybe three times, and then learned. No talking about it, not negotiating.

Lately when ds started school there was a breif resurgence of tentative hitting (to see if he could get away with it) and I told him in no uncertain terms that if he hit me, I would smack him back, because if you hit someone you have to be prepared to get hit back)

I am NOT for a minute suggesting you do this, (I know its controversial) but you do need to remove her the minute she hits, into time out. Take away toys, remove privileges, whatever it takes.

Woman up, take the reins, and fgs stop being so scared! Your DD needs you to be in control of things, and her behaviour will improve when you are.

Oh, agree with the sugar/hunger thing too, totally.

I haven't read all of the responses, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said. First - big hugs, and well done for your strength in coping! It's exhausting. My first thought is that she feels insecure and out of control of her life (moving, no school etc) and is trying to gain control. She may also be tired, hence not being able to "break" the tantrum and becoming hysterical. She sounds like she'd benefit from strategies such as a timetable of her week (photos/pics) to help her plan emotionally for what's happening and when (with some ? pics of course - you can't plan everything, but if you show mealtimes and any planned events that's perfect); and also giving her more control. Let her tell you what to put on the shopping list - making sure she chooses a meat/carb and veg for each meal - but anyones she wants. Let her choose routes you take when walking/driving places. Tell her she can choose a reward on the supermarket trip, but it has to cost less than a certain amount - have fun looking at prices and discussing. If she insists on a dearer one that's fine, but she'll have to wait til next visit/the one after to buy it and just get a lolly today or similar cheap item today - and let her know they might sell out. If time out is a nightmare to implement, try removing a fave toy from her for a period of time instead (maybe get a sand timer so she can see the time passing). Pre empt the tantrums - if you see her beginning to lose control or get angry (learn the warning signs - scrunched face, breathing quickens, voice gets highter etc.)step in with a distraction (cuddle, story, sweet) asap before it could be you rewarding bad behaviour, when it's still - "I know you want it, there's a good girl for not making a fuss - here's a smartie for not having a tantrum." As her behaviour improves you will find you need to reward less. Now, when it's in crisis mode, you may feel you're rewarding excessively. To be honest, it's like training a puppy to some degree!!!!

Basically I vote for making her feel secure, confident and in control, within the boundaries set firmly by you. Good luck x

My goodness. I have just logged on for the first time in utter desperation about my dd - who is being shocking on the same scale as so many other people's. I can't believe it's not just me - have been walking round feeling like a rubbish mother whilst shouting and mishandling everything...feeling strangely comforted to discover I'm not alone.

Well I feel about a million times better about everything since posting here. We had a perfect day yesterday but unfortunately a huge screaming meltdown in tesco this morning because her cookie was the wrong shape . Anyway it wasn't great but I certainly felt calmer and more able to handle it thanks to the advice on this thread in spite of all the stares, comments and tuts. I even laughed when the lady on the checkout told dd age would call security if she didn't stop, obviously joking but it helped lighten it. The cookie was removed, we came home and she went straight into Time Out.

She has said sorry now and big cuddles but I am still saying no cookie today. I don't think this is the same as using food as a reward as is what she went off about in first place iyswim?

I tell you what though she is strong for a 5 year old, she got a slap and a kick in and it really stung!

I do think that supermarkets are a trigger and am going to avoid completely for a while. Good luck to everyone else going through this, I think it's going to be a long road.

Oh I am op btw, forgot about namechange .

Good that today went a bit better

I don't have much advice, except to agree that negotiating is best avoided if you can. From bitter experience, the sequence usually goes something like:

Parent: come on now, it's time to go home / go to bed / eat your tea
DC: Noooooo, I don't want to!!!
Parent: if you're good and do it now without more fuss you can have (x reward)

But entering the negotiation and promising the reward has 'rewarded' the child's initial resistance and bad behaviour. They are therefore more likely to make a fuss the next time you ask them to do something.

I don't know if this is a pattern that applies to you or not, just mentioning it as it's very easy to slip into.

Another small practical tip - maybe put a sports bottle of water by her bed at night so that 'I need a drink' is one less device she has for getting you up the stairs?

Good luck, hope things continue to improve

btw I would have refused the cookie as well! I do the same if my DC have a tantrum over a game / toy, the first thing I say is 'if the game / toy is upsetting you then I don't think you should be playing with it' and threaten to remove it unless the tantrum stops. If the tantrum continues then I do remove it.

sorry to hear of it.

are there any areas, however small, where there is no problem and you feel really in control?

one of these tends to be seat-belts, as few of us will move a car until a child has given in and put a seat-belt on. 99% of us are utterly consistent about this, so I'd feel it was a clue something was up if my child was still resisting about something like that IYSWIM.