I am never going to last until Feb

[nutcracker]

Am meant to be doing a positive parenting course in feb. The main reason i am doing it is due to Dd2's behaviour.

The course doesn't start until sometime in feb, but at this rate she won't live that long.

Last night her and dd1 stayed at my moms and by all accounts they were both perfectly behaved.

I went to meet them this morning to go shopping and within about 2 minutes of me being there, dd2 is beating dd1 up, and virtually barking at me if i spoke to her.

We walked down to the bus stop with her sulking all the way. At the bus stop she attempted to push over the buggy (with ds in it), kick a woman who I know cos she spoke to her, push me into the road, and try and rip my coat.
She also sat on the floor kicking the back of the buggy.

She is just so uncontrolable, yet at school she is perfectly fine, infact she is perfectly fine everywhere except when i'm there.

My mom said maybe i'm just not strict enough, but what the hell am i meant to do with her. She doesn't care if you take things off her, or stop her doing something, she'd just basically scream at me for ages. The other day she screamed and shiouted for nearly 2 hours.

Ignoring her occasionally works, but I can't always do that, it depends on what she is doing. She was throwing stuff in the shops, so I couldn't ignore that.

HELP

Just a quick ...dd started the minute she got out of school because I wouldn't buy her sweets.

All the way home she smacked and pinched ds and sat either in the midle of the pavemtn refusing to move or even the worse the middle of the road.

I warned her once that if she carried on, I would confiscate her leapster. She carried on and so her leapster is confiscated until tommorow evening.
She has screamed and tried to get it back from where I have put it.
I warned her that if she carried on, it would be confiscated until friday evening and to my amazement she stopped, and put the chair back and is now sat watching tv quietly.

I have an explosive 6 yr old too that I have largely tamed by being very consistent. She knows now that if I threaten something I mean it so normally does as she is told.

Have you tried pasta jars for all of them? I found star charts etc didnt work with DD but when I use marbles or pasta jars for both of them the sibling competition kicks in and she cant bear DS getting a marble and not her.

Good thing about that is that its portable so can be taken anywhere and you can do as many as you like ie you can really really praise the minute little things she does "oh thanks, it was really helpful that you put your glass back in kitchen - here have a marble etc"

Also, anotehr thing I do if things slip is be RIDICULOUSLY positive almost to the point of being really theatrical with it. It really works.

DD your so gorgeous do you know that?
Your so brilliant at xyz
Oh LOOK at that picture, did you do that?? Its brilliant.
WOW your sitting at the table so nicely, thankyou

etc
etc
etc

Oh nutcracker... You have my full sympathy. We are not having a particularly good morning (and it is still only morning here) either. I am glad that you had some success with the Leapster. Very depressing to think that you need to resort to threats and the like in order to have them cooperate, isn't it? Oddly enough, it would make little difference to our dd if we took everything away.

OH god, just had the mother of all battles.

I took dd up to bed and she asked if she could read. I said No because it was late, she had school etc, but said that she could read tommorow night.
She went ballistic, screaming, crying and shouting and jumping all over the bed. She wasn't really upset though as she was laughing too. I threatened to remove baby annabel if she carried on. She carried on and so I did. Cue more screaming etc and I ended up removing 2 more things.
She didn't care, coudn't give a toss, thought it was all just one big game.
I snapped, shouted at her to shut the hell up for once and stormed out.
She cried and started coughing. She has asthma and as a baby would be sick if she cried for a long time. Unfortunatly i think she now understands that if we feel she is going to be sick we rush into her, so I didn't and she stopped coughing.

She went quiet for a bit but then started sobbing so I went back in.

We eneded up having a really good chat. I asked her several questions about her behaviour and she said several times that she doesn't know how to be good. I explained that she must do because she is good at school, and she said 'yeah but if we are good at school Mrs Holgate gives us things and tells us well done' .
I feel awful now. She obviously thinks being good isn't worth the effort at home because no one notices.
I don't praise good behaviour enough obviously.

I asked her what she would like me to do/say when she has been good and she said she would like a star chart. We have tried one of these before and it didn't work very well, but I am willing to give it another go seeing as it is her suggestion.

So far we have decided that we will do a chart a week and she will get starts each day, how many depending on how good she is.
What I can't decide is wether to have the threat or removing stars for bad behaviour or not, is that a good or bad idea ???

I said we would count up the stars at the end of the week and she would be rewarded with something, depending on how many stars she got.

Haven't a clue what to use as rewards though , I mean if she has a bad week, she will still get a reward but I don't want anything major obviously.

Any help with this would be appreciated.

Haven't read it all in detail nutty, but agree qith Lizs regarding the fish oils. Dd has been taking them for just about two months now and the difference is remarkable - even my Mum noticed whan we were in NI over the Xmas break - said she was a different child. I can't quite put my finger on it to say how exactly, but just so much easier to manage and calmer, and a much more pleasant child to be with (not that she was unpleasant, but ykwim). They aren't really expensive considering the result! I started off buying Haliborange and they are a bit steep, but now I buy the own brand of wherever I'm shopping - under £1.50 for 30 capsules. Some are one a day and some are two, so just make sure you read the packet. Own brands might have less of the active ingredient in them, but tbh, I've found they're working fine for dd.
Also, dd doesn't like the taste either, so she just swallows them with water, like you would a paracetamol. Took a couple of attempts, but now she's an expert at the ripe old age of five!
I really, really would recommend trying it. Got to be worth a go, for the sake of your sanity! We began to notice a marked difference within a couple of weeks.

Thanks Areo, am planning to stock pile the fish oil from tommorow . Like you say, it is definatly worth a try.

Dp has just come down from his bath and said that dd went into the bathroom and said 'dad, how do i be good'. Dp said he said to her that she knows how to be good because she is at school. Dd said yeah but we do lots of different things at school.

I feel so awful, inadequate and just plain guilty.

I think a lot of us feel that way a lot of the time nutty, and it is harder if you find it difficult to 'like' one of your children for a while. I was finding dd a struggle, but mainly because of not being able to spend any proper time with her due to the demands of ds2 (almost two) and was finding that I was often blaming her or ds1 when it was really ds2 that was causing the problem - don't know if that makes sense. Anyway, I'm now doing my best to make sure ds2 learns that he's not the most important person in the family (difficult when he's in a screeching paddy), and trying hard to do something (however small), with each of them, in particular dd, each day. It's not easy though, but having seen the fish oil effect, it's made me want to help her more iyswim.
You're a good parent nutty - most definitely not inadequate, but I do know exactly what you mean. You're not alone by any means, but you are doing a great job.

My heart is breaking for you nutcracker. You ARE a good mum or you woudn't even notice that your daughter was having trouble behaving appropriately and you certainly wouldn't be asking us lunatics for advice. A bad mother would lose her cool, swat the child repeatedly before giving up on her entirely and getting on with her own life not take parenting courses and try every parenting technique under the sun.

Every child poses their own challenges and I try to take comfort in the knowledge that my daughter will grow up knowing her mind and being able to express her needs which is as positive a spin as I can find some days. Keep posting and looking through all of the advice. Nobody knows her better than you but sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees.

Another thing that my mum reminded me of once is that a child who is well behaved at school and less so with their mother is still much better than the opposite. The children who are angelic with their parents and out of control in public are much more devious and difficult to cope with. I can honestly say that from years of working with 2 1/2- 6 year olds, I know that my mum is right.

You are doing a good job with her and she knows that you love her. Try to keep your chin up.

Posts crossed with Aero's. We both seem to agree that you are doing a great job though!!

Aero: I so know what you mean about DS2 stealing the attention with either a screaming fit or just by being adorable. (We also have a DS a DD and a DS2.) DS2 was very ill as a baby and I am sure that this has had a bigger impact on our lives than we even acknowledge. It meant that I spent 3 weeks with him in hospital when DD was only 3 and she likely got the message that he was far more important than she is...

No use on the star charts (dd only 2) and I know you don't 'know' me, or me you, but....had to chime in and say you sound like a great mother. I do understand how crappy it feels to go through it, but wow. Wish my Mum had responded like that to my tantrums. You held the limits, ignored the crap, heard the genuine upset, worked with her to make things better - no way inadequate! Hats off, and hope the starchart experts chime in...

Aviatrix: Thank you for the book suggestion. Have ordered it after reading the except available on Amazon.com with DH. It is so easy to lose sight of your goals as a parent...

Good to hear you got things sorted, often it does take a big tantrum to know what's going on.

Why not try faces in sticker form or even just draw them - smiley ones for good behaviour and a sad one for bad then you add up the smiley ones towards a treat. Apparently one isn't supposed to remove things from a chart for bad behaviour.

Also agree with aviatrix - if my ds persists in wanting to do something like reading at bedtime then I always do it no matter how late it is. I feel that this isn't an unreasonable request and I usually say "OK its late we'll do this story it's not too long" As I said before he has autism and for me its easier to do this than have a huge palaver trying to explain how late it is (he doesn't really understand time) but he does respond to a reason for why x, y or z can't be done which would apply for all children. So don't say "no you can't" but "its very late but one story and then sleep".

I also may read the story and if he's still acting up I say I have a sore throat from reading and that seems to work! Again providing a reason. I sometimes talk about what we are doing the next day (something nice) and say he has to have plenty of sleep for that.

Also try to set things up beforehand so you both know what is happening. ie discuss how many stories then do it. Another thing my ds likes me to do before he goes to sleep is tickle him and this could go on for hours so I say I am doing it 3 times and I count down till we've done the last. Focussing on the numbers seems to help.

Does she have a tape recorder to play in bed?

I think two things might help. One is to always take a deep breath and think before you respond with a 'no'. Dh told me before we had our own kids that his policy was always to say 'yes' unless the request was truly unreasonable - ie really dangerous, totally impractical (make this lego model before we leave the house when we have a dr's appt in ten minutes) or genuinely unaffordable. I don't always stick to this and sometimes I hear nos coming out of my mouth for no good reason. Like the other day I promised ds an ice cream at Ikea (he's obsessed with the machine more than the ice cream tbh). He was really happy but when we got there at 11ish, he wanted the ice cream. Stupidly, I said no, we would go for coffee first, ice cream when we had finished. So dh and I had coffee and dh had some chocolate muffin. Of course he whinged and whinged all round Ikea for the ice-cream he'd been promised. I should have said yes and given him the bloody ice cream first and we would all have been happier. And he wouldn't have had ice-cream AND chocolate muffin!
So, in short, I would have let her read one small story, or put on a story tape to go to sleep to.
Also, with the star chart, IME the key is to actively LOOK for things you can reward with stars. She says 'please' you look delighted, say 'Wow, that was a fantastic please! So polite. Let's get a star for your chart!' - if she is quiet for moment, playing, if she passes something nicely to her sister, if she puts on her shoes quickly, - anything. Also you can use the stars as an incentive - 'I know, if you can wait at the bus stop and chat nicely, I think that would deserve a star, don't you?' Never take them away. This is all about increasing postive feedback. I wouldn't worry so much about the reward, for my ds the stars and the approval were the reward in themselves (though chocolate buttons never went amiss). And it kept the focus on the little things all day, not on reaching an arbitrary total, and anyway, it sounds as if your dd is hungry for praise, not more things.
I'm sure you will be fine, you love your kids and want them to be happy and that's the best thing. All kids are a nightmare sometimes, but praise does really help IME.

Sounds like a horrid time for both of you, and the rest of the family.

I would really give the pasta jar a try. Because it can be taken away as well as earned, it makes a difference. We have rewards depending on what DD1 would like. for example, last week she had loads of presents, so no point doing that. So she got to choose what we had for dinner instead. The week before she got 5p for each peioce of pasta, then chose to have a turn on the bus outside the Co Op.

From what you've said, she gets herself in such a state that she doesn't know how to stop, so gets worse.

I attended a behaviour management course which was for parents and child care workers, and one of the main topics was consistency. At school she knows where her bpoundaries are, and what the consequences are. She needs the same at home.

I am presuming she is the middle child, so perhaps she doesn't always get as much attention as she needs, simply due to logistics. Maybe you can fit in some special time, even if it means shifting bed times or mealtimes by 15 mins so that you could read with her before bed.

The other thing we were always discussing was frustration, for the child. frustrated children get angry.

hope you can sort something out, and good luck!

Agree with what you say about the stars themselves being a reward - but nutty's DD is older so I think an eventual small treat would also be in order.

Also agree with stepping back from the situation. To me, what Eulalia describes is compromise/negotiation and works well with my DS. Also a thing that works for DS is setting him a time. If he can get himself dressed by X time he can have a star and leave him to get on with it (maybe popping head round door to ask him what time it is) works far better than standing over him and nagging him.

I think Aloha's point about trying not to say no is excellent - I see huge improvements if I try and do this. At six I think you need to be able to use negotiation with your children - it gives them a feeling of having some say in what happens.

It sounds as though your dd really wants you to help her get more positive feedback. What about coming up with some house rules for all your kids? We sat down with ours and agreed about six rules which are pinned up on the fridge, things like 'we talk to each other politely and in a normal voice' 'we are kind' ' we try and share'.
It works well with my ds in particular because he's used to the Golden Rules at school. We all follow them (so I get pulled up if I get a bit shouty) and the children get praise and rewards based on them - somehow I think this makes 'being good' a bit more tangible.

Nutcracker - Hi, not really heaps of experience of this myself but you wondered if you should take stickers away if she misbehaves. How about asking her what she thinks should happen if she misbehaves - do you think she woud get that? Or as she likes the structure of school, ask her what school do if she misbehaves/breaks the rules. Then she may suggest losing stickers or something else and you would at least have her buy-in.

Hope I'm not sounding naive?!

So many great tips here, I hope some work.
I am ruthless about consequences. I take a minute or two to think out potential consequences before I say them. So, it might be "up to your room", "straight to bed", "no watching of current fave DVD for a day" or whatever and then if I issue the threat, I carry it through absolutely.
My children now know that if I say something then I will do it. They are in no doubt whatsoever about this and it has made such a huge difference.
I am also big into positive reinforcement. At first it was really tough and I found it hard to praise really silly day-to-day activities, but with my ds it made a huge difference. So, for example, when they have finished their meal, you can say "that's great, you ate your supper so nicely - thank you" and just watch how happy they look because you think they're great!! Definitely worth a go. At the end of the day, we all want to feel like somebody's best son/daughter/husband/wife/colleague/friend etc!
Big hugs to you Nutty - hope some of it helps.

Nutcracker. Just speed through end of thread and haven't got time to read properly so please forgive me if this suggestion has already been made. Was reading your post on star charts. I do this with mine.

I do a 'tick' chart. (don't have to spend money on 'stars' then) They have to get 30 ticks a week to get 'mummy time'. One evening a week they are each allowed to stay up for one hour separately while the other goes to bed and spend special time with mummy. They choose what they want to do. DD normally chooses colouring and we colour for one hour. YAWN. But she loves it and it works a treat. They get a tick for good behaviour and a cross for bad (a tick becomes a cross so they are one tick down IYSWIM). If they get more than 30 ticks they go into 'bonus' time and get 5 mins extra time every 5 ticks. I Use this along with 1,2,3 magic.

Something that struck me from a suggestion I read here, but haven't read the whole thread:

Have ticks and crosses as 'minus points' but don't take ticks AWAY. If a tick or star has been earned then it has been earned and you shouldn't diminish that achievement.

Star charts are great but they also do not work for a number of children so don't become disheartened if this isn't working for you.

If you didn't take the ticks away (ie bad behaviour = a tick becoming a cross) then the whole system wouldn't work because if you get a cross 'so what' but if a cross takes a tick away then it matters to them IYSWIM

Ok, true. But, what I mean is, don't scrub them out or put a line through, etc. They still need to stand as representative of the behaviour that earned them. A cross should just mean it takes longer to get to the total for a treat and shouldn't bear a relation to past positive achievements. In other words, the crosses don't negate the ticks, all the symbols are representative and simply have a bearing on the time taken to achieve a reward!

I hope that makes sense - was nearly confusing myself there!

I agree with the suggestion of not saying no if it really doesn't matter. When i said no last night it set of a whole host of probs, and so it would definatly have been easier for all to let her read.

Having another bad night tonight though. Put her to bed, and let her read but she is still shouting and screaming. She said it is too hard to be good and she doesn't want to try.