3 year old not responding to discipline - HELP!!!!!

[WhenAChildIsBored]

I am at the end of my tether with DS1. He was three at the end of September and is a beautiful, charming, bright little character who I love more than life itself. However, he is rude, defiant, stubborn, and doesn't respond to the discipline which I deem acceptable to use. I've tried all the stuff which is recommended at the moment - naughty step, depriving him of treats, withdrawing toys, time-out, reward systems, "ignoring the bad", getting down to his level and explaining things....to be honest I'm all Tanya Byronned out and he is laughing in my face. When I was trying the "one firm warning and the a consequence" he would misbehave, and then rush over to me and "warn" himself in my voice, laughing. I've never smacked him or frightened him or really lost it with him, and neither has DH, although both of us have raised our voices on occasion. 50% of the time he is a delight. He's already talking pretty much like a 6-7 year old, reading, and starting to add up, is very curious and chatty and makes hilarious jokes etc. He looks like an angel and I am so, so proud of him and his brother. They are both miracle babies to me because to cut a long story short their pregnancies and births were unusually traumatic and hazardous. I have quite high standards for behaviour and manners and don't understand why I can't control him. He's starting nursery school in January, he's already going to stick out like a sore thumb because of his reading etc (not bragging, just worried) and I feel I have failed him because his behaviour is going to make him unpopular. Please help!!!

Think it's a 3 year old thing. I have one just the same. Angel one minute, devil child the next.Normally a devil in public/in front of grand parents and it looks like you are not in control

Let's hope they grow out of it!

I supect your 'high standards' and his 'bad behaviour' are linked. reduce your standards and - hey presto!- his behaviour will seem better. I'm actually being serious. And his nursery will have seen it all before, and provided he isn't battering the other kids to a pulp his lovely manner or otherwise won't make the slightest difference to his 'popularity' - that's not how kids judge each other IMO.

I really meant popularity with the staff - perhaps "popularity" was the wrong word. I just think boys who get known for behaving badly at school tend to "slip through the net" and end up in trouble..it sounds daft but it was what happened to my brother. When I say "high standards", I mean not laughing when I am telling him off, or shouting when I am talking, or standing up on his chair when I have repeatedly asked him not to...he isn't physically violent, he's just rude and bumptious.

Um, honestly, I think all those things are really, really normal. And FWIW I think children laugh when you tell them off for all sorts of reasons including embarrassment, fear, a totally misguided attempt to lighten the atmosphere (bless!) because they hate you being scary, and nerves (I still giggle when nervous tbh). And just three year olds have zero grasp of etiquette and shout a lot when you are talking. Ds, who I really don't think is a naughty boy at all, interrupts constantly. They just do.
Don't worry about nursery. HOnestly, if they disliked children for being high-spirited, they would be right old child-catchers! And he may well be totally different at nursery. Lots of kids are.

Do a google on gifted children - early reading is an indicator and lots of people seem to have troubles like you describe. It may help to see the two as linked.

Have you eliminated the dirty dozen from food? Is he on flax seed or fish oil?

My ds is an angel at nursery. Saves his worst behaviour for Mummy & Daddy. But dont they all?

Btw what is the dirty dozen, flax oli etc bobbybobbob?

Just think when he is at Nursery you'll be able to say "Ok then I'll ring Mrs XXXX and tell her you're not going to bed then shall I?" Oh this was a wonder cure for my dd - she calls my bluff now as she an old lady of 5 yo now

My dd has always been good as gold IMO but still does all the things you described. I think i have quite high standards too but i always try to think that she's only 4! She's asserting her independance and testing the boundaries.

The reason i opst though is about nursery. He may be a totally different child when he's there. At home my dd never stops talking and is very confident. She started Nursery last Year and is now in reception and i can't beleive how quiet and withdrawn she is there. It's quite sad really!

Anyway, he sounds totally normal to me and very bright!!

Cattle..I hear what you're saying but I promise I am only reacting to genuine, deliberate defiance and behaviour intended to cause anger. The rest of the time he is a sparky, lively lad (as is his brother) and I wouldn't have him any other way. I like cheeky kids who speak up and have their own ideas, I've encouraged that..I like to think it's one of the reasons he talks well. I'm not some kind of joyless old Murdstone!! But in the last six months he has become genuinely difficult to handle and some days he's so difficult he reduces me (and even DH) to an exhausted wreck. He's very strong-minded and will refuse point-blank to do as he is told (eg sit down, put your Lego away, stop poking the cat etc) As I said I don't smack or shout, I have tried all the accepted methods I can find and he is eating us for breakfast.

No, he isn't on anything special, fish oil or anything...should he be?

Tbh, he sounds totally ready for nursery. He'll love it. Lots to do, people to hang out with and good boundaries! I can tell you are a nice person - certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise - and of course he's a PIA sometimes. But he's clearly super-bright and so even better than most at trying it on.

And if he'd doing it to make you angry...maybe not get angry might be a good technique? Though in your place I'd be (and often am ) shrieking like a banshee.

That's what I am hoping...that he is just bored s**tless at home with Mummy and little bro, and will calm down when he has a bit more to go at. I'm very possessive (!) and have never really left him, not even with his grandparents!! I've been out to the cinema twice while they were in bed, but never left them apart from that.

It'll be great. Might take a bit of adjusting to, so be prepared for that, but I think it might be the making of him - good luck

Thanks, I really appreciate your advice...you are probably right, I should just calm down and hope he calms down when he goes to nursery. I'm moving house tomorrow

He won't be like he is with you at nursery. My dd's 3 and started pre-school in September. One of my main 'problems' with her behaviour is her weepiness. I had her report back today after her first 3 months there and I had a chat to her teacher. Apparently she hasn't shed a tear once, ever, even when kids have been mean, when she's been told off, when she's failed at an activity, EVEN when she's fallen over. You could have put an egg in my mouth it hung open so far. With me I expect between 3-10 fits of hysterical tears a day.

My dd is, apart from the weepies, generally very well behaved. BUT she does interrupt, has little ability to focus on me when her mind's clearly racing all over the place with her own ideas.

Don't boys in particular at this age get a rush of testosterone which just makes them RACE. My friend's little boy sounds very like yours and he's really calmed down at nursery.

Ah, my ds went a bit doolally when we were moving house - he was really unsettled, but when he saw all his books at the new house, he was completely happy again! Good luck.

I know this might sound bizarre. But sometimes I don't treat my dd as a small human, but more as a little alien whose brain doesn't work like mine. I try to open a door into her brain, get an idea of its mechanics and work from the inside out.

I give my ds flax seed oil every day because he has allergies and misses these nutrients in the foods he can't eat.

He is a very calm boy who recently deliberately had a tantrum to see what all the fuss was about. i kid you not. He opened his mouth and shut his eyes and looked for all the world like he was acting. After around 10 seconds he said "I think mummy that I enjoy playing more than doing this" and went back to his play.

Taking fish oil (or flax if veggie or allergic) is supposed to be good for behaviour, so it's worth a try.

The dirty dozen (google them) are food chemicals that are no good for children. A couple of them are obvious - like diet drinks for instance. But there are others that you wouldn't realise.

And going to nursery will help him see very clearly what is and isn't acceptable. I wouldn't worry about him fitting in.

And finally you said you "can't understand why I can't control him". Because he's 3.

Oh wow - just posted on another thread about my brother when he was growing up, inappropriate laughter and defiant outbursts, I've never seen the similarity to my little one before!! It's quite marked now I've realised it. So what I need is patience, calm and to build up his confidence and give him things to channel his energy. I always thought my brother was the way he was because we had such a stinking rotten violent miserable childhood but actually my dad is a bit "odd" as well, very creative and an odd sense of humour...it must be genetic. OMG I am such an idiot

WhenAChildIsBored, it sounds like your ds is really intelligent and you are doing wonders with him. What I try to remind myself (not always successfully ) is that children (esp when they are too young to articulate this) need to feel that they are loved even when they are being naughty and deliberately defiant. So whilst you are making your disapproval known, sometimes an indulgent smile and a little humour to lighten things up goes a long way . It might not achieve immediate compliance, but it will open the pathways to his little heart (eventually). I think that is particularly important when your ds is a bright spark.

Kleist, we are dealing with aliens, aren't we !

What a fantastic post - good advice and I will take it. DS has a very strong sense of humour and is delightfully mischievous. We quite often have a conversation which goes "Even when I'm naughty you still love me!" "Yes, even when you are naughty I still love you..." "Even when I won't sit down on my chair/throw my toys we STILL love me..." "Yes...."etc.... he gets a real kick out of it and will giggle for ages. I wish we didn't have to have all this unpleasantness, he's such a sweetie the rest of the time...but it has gone up a gear lately and I feel out of control.

whenachildisbored, i think he sounds a completely normal 3 year old. The one thing that may help is if you accept the 'defiance'. He WILL do it, because he CAN. You can't stop it. All you can do is either change your appraoch, or change your response.

changing your response - I think if he's say standing on a chair when you've repeatedly told him not to, (and I guess you're telling him this for safety reasons) then if he ignored me I would give him 3 minutes time out in his room, explaining that this is for SAFETY. He's intelligent enough to know that you mean he MUST listen when you're telling him things to keep him safe. I know you say time out doesn't work but I feel keeping on with this for such a sociable, chatty individual may work - losing your company will eventually rankle if it happens a few times.

changing your approach - accept that he's not someone who responds well to 'being told' and try to distract, distract, distract ALL THE TIME. remind yourself telling him off is a waste of breath and ig out of the corner of your eye you spot him doing something he shouldn't just immediately suggest something he will be interested in or even "look, there's a helicopter!". My son is EXACTLY the same and nothing works all the time but he knows that I am serious when he goes to his room.

I would also say take a serious look at your limits on his behaviour - just make sure that your expectations are age appropriate, and make sure that the things you try to 'discipline' really are bad behaviour and not just being three!!

thanks for the advice...have tried time out but it simply doesn't work. He thinks it's funny.

just also to say some of the things you mentioned can be dealt with by what I've said - ie put you lego away can be made into a game (who can put the most in, who will win?) or even by compromising - 'i'd like you to put one piece of lego in then I'll help you'.
Poknig the cat I would deal with by first trying to distract - then, if he kept on I would tell him again that he mustn't (explaining that the cat may get cross and bite) then if ignored again I would use 3 minutes time out.
I hope this is of some help, I can't resist tryng to help as youy describe a boy so similar to mine! As I say we still have the odd bad day I'm not saying i'm the expert here!

Maybe with time out, you need to get a bit crosser? You say you have never shouted really? And neither have I, so what do I know? But maybe let yourself get really cross with him as a way of making him realise this is totally unacceptable - the idea of time out i think is that it is a last resort, when he or you are SOOO angry that time apart from eachother is going to stop you doing something worse! So don't overuse it but use it when you feel like strangling him.

I guess distraction and making things into games and competitions are going to be good bets for you.