3 year old not responding to discipline - HELP!!!!!

[WhenAChildIsBored]

I am at the end of my tether with DS1. He was three at the end of September and is a beautiful, charming, bright little character who I love more than life itself. However, he is rude, defiant, stubborn, and doesn't respond to the discipline which I deem acceptable to use. I've tried all the stuff which is recommended at the moment - naughty step, depriving him of treats, withdrawing toys, time-out, reward systems, "ignoring the bad", getting down to his level and explaining things....to be honest I'm all Tanya Byronned out and he is laughing in my face. When I was trying the "one firm warning and the a consequence" he would misbehave, and then rush over to me and "warn" himself in my voice, laughing. I've never smacked him or frightened him or really lost it with him, and neither has DH, although both of us have raised our voices on occasion. 50% of the time he is a delight. He's already talking pretty much like a 6-7 year old, reading, and starting to add up, is very curious and chatty and makes hilarious jokes etc. He looks like an angel and I am so, so proud of him and his brother. They are both miracle babies to me because to cut a long story short their pregnancies and births were unusually traumatic and hazardous. I have quite high standards for behaviour and manners and don't understand why I can't control him. He's starting nursery school in January, he's already going to stick out like a sore thumb because of his reading etc (not bragging, just worried) and I feel I have failed him because his behaviour is going to make him unpopular. Please help!!!

you're right about the distraction and turning tasks into a game, he responds brilliantly to that. But once we have blatant bad behaviour which requires a consequence, things get difficult. He just doesn't care about time out, or punishments of any kind. I haven't found a consequence which bothers him or affects his behaviour.

Dexter's advice sounds good on the behaviour issue. Over the early reading at nursery, all three of mine did it, and it did not cause problems with the other children. Unless you include a priceless incident in which a little girl tried to tell ds1 that the officious notice to parents on the nursery gate said "Boys not allowed", and ds1 read it out to her, most indignantly, to the speechless amazement of the parents waiting outside. He clearly didn't realise that the little girl, who was older than him, couldn't read. Being academically advanced can cause some problems with the adults at nursery. Sometimes my children got worried and upset about issues that would not even have occurred to the others (such as missing an opportunity to do an activity for that day because they were doing something else), and I was called in a few times. Nursery got rather put out about ds1's unhealthy (as they saw it) interest in rules - I did my best to persuade them it was the pernicious influence of Thomas the Tank Engine rather than an overly buttoned-up home life. And don't expect them to believe you if you tell them your child can read - you'll be put down as another pushy middle-class parent unless your son does what ds2 did and reads something he really shouldn't out loud over a teacher's shoulder. You'll have to maintain your senses of humour and proportion I'm afraid - good luck!

The consequence of bad behaviour that worked best for me was the nuclear option, I'm afraid. BED!

I hate to say it and I know it's un PC and I am a bad mother but sometimes I find that losing it and having a shout works miracles! I have 2 dss a bit like yours who veer from angelic to defiant and point blank laughing at my polite explanations as to why they should stop chewing the bread knife or whatever. A shout (used only occasionally when you really mean it) startles everyone. Yes, it's a bit scary. The boys realise that they've reached my very outer limits of tolerance and immediately stop whatever has been driving me mad. Only works if used very sparingly. Makes me feel better too!

Shimmy, you are not a bad mother. I think it is important that children have some exposure to normal human reactions to their misbehaviour. Well, that's my excuse anyway...

My mum has just said the same: "The trouble with you darling is you're too nice - he's having a laugh!"

The fact is I have a problem with scaring or upsetting him because I had quite a bad time myself. I can't say that to her of course

Maybe I am just a jessie!!

Thanks for comments about the early reading. I have been feeling a bit intimidated about it. You only have to mention it for people to get all sniffy...but I haven't hothoused him or coached him, he's just lke that. I left his toddler group when he was 18 months because he was interrupting and correcting the other mums' lyrics during the sing-song at the end and they all shunned me, I think they thought I had trained him to do it to show off. I felt I'd failed him because I should have stuck it out and been more thick-skinned...

I have read some really interesting and valuable advice on this thread, I really am grateful to all of you

I do think that your son perhaps needs this 'shock' of knowing that you are REALLY REALLY at your limits, so maybe you need to lose, I don't know - but what has occured to me is that why don't you feel time out works? Is it because he's not upset and crying, but finds it funny? Again, perhaps take the pressure of yourself by not judging it's effectiveness on his response. Again, you can't control his response but you can choose the methods of discipline. If you decide time out is it, then you just stick with it despite his response. He's a very bright boy so he already senses he can undermine your faith in it by laughing at it. But if you continue to use the method, he will at least know that you mean it and that doing certain things ALWAYS means a very cross mum and some time on his own. It may even be that if you are really consistent with it he may get more upset by it because he will realise that his response no longer influences what you do!

And if he never gets upset by it - so what? You have done all that you can by telling him to stop his behaviour then imposing a consequence. you can do no more as a parent!

whenachildisbored, this thread has been really interesting! I do feel for you on the early reading thing too because I do feel people judge that you must be a 'pushy mum'! My dad read at about this age too apparently and through no parental influence at all! The family story goes that he was toddling along the road with his grandmother then spooked her completely by reading out all the street names to her! She took him home to his mum and said "I think it's time to buy this child a book"....

The reason I feel time-out doesn't work with my son is because his response to it is to turn it into a game...he will repeat the behaviour immediately, then warn himself in my voice, giggling, then run into his room and throw his toys around, and then do the misdeed again...if I time him out again he laughs hysterically and can't wait to get out and do it again. He doesn't regard being shut in his room (or any other place I have used) as a punishment. He is very self-reliant and can amuse himself! He loves it!! The point of time out surely is to improve the behaviour. It just doesn't.

Actually, my dd is obsessed with rules too. It's actually quite painful for her that other people (including me sometimes) don't adhere to them. And it even backfires with disciplining her ... the other day she accidentally spilt some water and came to me and said 'mum, sorry, I spilt water on the floor, I'll sit on the naughty step' and off she went. I said she didn't need to as it was an accident (I saw it happen) and she got really upset as I was breaking the 'punishment' rule!!

It makes it hard for her to relate to / interract with other children as they don't adhere to The Rules.

But if your ds is so keen on rules then is there no way you can incorporate this with the way you handle his misbehaviour?

Also re. the early reading / nursery thing. There will be other children who enjoy reading / can read early etc. And others who have their social skill down to a tee. My dd's language skills are amazing, her vocabulary is huge and I wondered how this would go down but in fact it's always counterbalanced by the things she's less skilled at, in her case, social interractions.

What a relief to see your message. I'v just joined mumsnet specifically in the first place to see if anyone could help with my situation and my little girl who was 3 in Jan.and who sounds almost identical to your description of your little boy. She too is bright & lively & so many things we love & wouldn't want to change but there are increasing incidences of horrendous temper tantrums and behaviour that spirals out of control and like you we've tried various techniques but none of them really seem to work.
I,ve been reading a lot recently about Cranial Osteopathy and how it can sometimes help with these kind of behaviour problems, particularly if there was a traumatic or overlong birth, as hers was.

I'd love to hear anything anyone has got to say on the matter, whether it helped or not...in fact anything you know about Cranial osteopathy. The articles I've read were interesting but were rather biased as they were all singing its praises...but can it be as good as they say? Would love to hear your thoughts.

With time out I find the naughty step, chair, bean bag works better as there is nothing to do. Put them in their room and they will trash it or play with their toys.

The first time you use the naughty step you might be repeating it 30 or 40 times - first time with DS2 it took about an hour to get our two minutes.