How do you deal with an argumentative 4+ year old?

[IlanaK]

Ds1 is becoming very argumentative and more difficult to deal with. I have my own ideas about how to improve things, but would love to hear what other people do.

He is obviously asserting his independance and will point his finger at me and make a "mean" face and argue back to me. I find it really hard not to get cuaght up in arguements with him.

So, what do you all do?

i tell them they are not allowed to argue with me, give them a warning and then they get the naughty step if they carry on. they do understand

having terrible trouble with my 4 year old-posted earlier but got no response
argumentative, defiant and totally unable to cope with frustration-and I am becoming the same!!!!

My husband wants to use a naughty chair (no step - we livein a flat!). I was hoping that ignoring the bad, praising the good, and trying not to get caught in conflict - just giving clear choices/consequences - would work. But maybe that is wishful thinking?

depends how much of a problem it is. naughty chair will not emotionally scar him! you might find that after a couple of times on the chair he stops after a warning (do give a warning first, i think thats only fair). what would be the choices/consequences? i would see 'stop arguing with me or you will sit on the naughty chair' as being a choice

Well, I suppose what I mean is that if he argues that he does not want to do something or won't do it, I would just give him a choice to do it or face x consequence. Up to now, I have got into the "Yes you wil" type argument which is pointless. I am hoping i can just give hte warning and then ignore him. I have not totally discounted the naughty chair idea though.

I will say what I said to someone else on another thread recently..

arguments are ALWAYS 2-sided.
It takes 2 people... and if you don't join in he will have no-one to argue with!

Youi tell him what he has to do. you don't give him a choice. If he starts arguing then ignore it.
You give him a consequence if he doesn't so as he is told.... and if he doesn't do it then he gets the consequence

there are some things you cant force them to do and getting into arguments just stresses you out. if you make a threat and dont carry it through he will know you dont mean it next time and when you do decide to do something like the naughty chair it will be ten times harder than if you just did it first time. my kids very rarely sit on the naughty step. i give them a warning and they get on with what they are told because they know i mean it. if you dont like the naughty chair idea you could do a sticker chart where he gets a sticker if he doesnt argue but a sad face if he does?

They do really copy you. My DS1 has started saying "let's not do this" when I start doing anything that annoys him. Which is fine, I can cope with this.

Arguing is circular. The more you argue with them, the more they argue with you.

I try to distinguish between requests, which he may or may not go along with, and orders, which he must follow (or there will be consequences, and I always follow through). If he's arguing with me about something unimportant (e.g. telling tall tales and insisting they're true), I don't argue, I let it go.

dd (4.5) can be like that too. She can be an angel when she wants to but will go through phases (usually several days or a week at a time) where she just does not want to listen to anything she's told - even if it's for her own benefit. One day I said to her 'you've been really good this morning so if you put your shoes on I will take you to McDonalds'. "I won't put my shoes on" she says!!! What sane child refuses McDonalds just to be stubborn.

Anyway, I sometimes get into the whole argument thing as well. It's horrible because I usually end up screaming and the whole thing blows out of proportion.

Giving clear choices/consequences does seem to work for us when we get caught in one of these cycles, although it doesn't "fix" the problem forever. It usually needs to be reinforced at regular intervals. The important (and hard!) bit is to state the choice/consequence then NOT argue about it. If they continue to ignore what they've been told then follow through quickly, still without arguing.

In theory the naughty chair/step sounds like a good idea but it has never worked for dd. She just gets hysterical and will not stay put no matter what. I've tried putting her in her room for a 'time out' and just sitting with my back to the door to keep her from leaving and totally ignoring her hysterics. But she is very determined and usually after about half an hour she wears me down and I give up. Strangely enough though, it DOES seem to work for us with ds who is only 2.5.

Another trick we've used with dd - really just another variation on the choices/consequences thing, but means I don't have to constantly think up a consequnce on the spot - is to have a 'toy bag.' If she doesn't listen she gets warned that a favourite toy will go away in the bag. If the bad behaviour continues another one goes in. Some weeks it's empty, other times half her room is in there. It works for me because it's easy for me to follow-through. When you threaten punishments that hurt you too (like if you don't behave we won't go out for tea, when you really want that cappuccino!) you tend not to follow through.

sugarmag

your dd sounds exactly like mine, she's 4.5 too!!! I actually came on to musmnet to post about this, but if Ilanak doesn't mind I'll join her thread instead of starting a new one with the same subject!!

I tend to withdraw privileges and we also do start chart, but sometimes nothing works, especially when her tantrums come out completely out of the blue.

She goes completely mental and will scream for hours on end, I dread to think what the neighbours think of me....
I try hard not to get drawn into an argument or a screaming match, but it's really really hard, when you have a 4.5 yold that follows you to every room you go and keeps on screaming to the top of her voice like a scene from the exorcist (sorry cant spell it!). In the end the screams just get to me and I start screaming as well, and well she's really bad, she gets a smack on her bottom too .

Incidentally, I am absolutely against smacking, but she makes me feel so powerless sometimes I just hope a shock will calm her down...needless to say it doesn't work.

I'm really quite depressed about this because I know I shouldn't get to her level, but it (almost) always ends up that way....she's so stubborn and proud.

The naughty step never worked, even as a toddler she just refused to stay out and there was no way I could keep her there....we've had these terrible tantrums since she was 18 months....we always told ourselves she would grow out of them, but I'm starting to despair...

it's just like...she knows how to get the worst out of me, and I must ahve a similar effect on her too, I can just see our relationship going on like these for many years to come, and I hate the idea...I have always been very close to my mum and was looking forward to having a similar relationship with dd1 but its just not happening and can't understand why....

You can spell it!

thanks aloha, wasn't sure

Hey webmum. I think I'm the opposite of you in terms of my relationship with my own mum - and that has had a lot of influence on how I try to be with dd. My mum always shouted a lot when I was growing up. To this day, although we get on ok and we do speak and see each other regularly she can still make me so ANGRY! And I wouldn't say we were exactly close.

So whenever I'm in danger of losing my temper (usually shouting and screaming although the temptaion to smack is often there) I try to think about that and how I would like to be closer to my own daughter than I am to my mum. I try to think about how stubborn I was as a child and hard it can be to back down when you're angry, especially when you're 4. So although I'm no saint - far from it!!! - I do feel I'm doing better at lately at not getting drawn into arguments and screaming matches with her. It's really hard adn there are certainly times when I snap. But when I do I then try to take a deep breath and start again. Sometimes it feels like 2 steps forward and 3 steps back and there are times where I get really depressed about it so I can completely sympathise.

Here's a good trick. If she's running around screaming and you just can't stand it anymore - give yourself a time out! Find a room that locks, even if it's only the bathroom. Take a book with you or a drink or whatever and lock yourself in for 20 minutes or so. She gets no attention for her tantrums and you are removed from the temptation of screaming/smacking whatever.

Failing that just post here whenever you feel you need some support!!

thanks Sugarmag

its good to talk to someone who understands, I have done the locking myself somewhere thing, but she will come to the door, screaming her head off and banging with all her might on it, she can be quite strong even though she's petite.....I try to hang as long as I can but she always outlasts me, she can go on for an hour, I can hardly lock myself in the loo for an hour with her raging outside....

Thanks a million for the support, it really DOES help, with her, I always feel like I'm hitting a bbrick wall, it's just so draining....

On one occasion, she ripped off the card she had made for my birthday, knowing very well that she would hurt like that...that was probably the saddest thing.

In the books they always say that kids know when they're punished fairly, and we are not particularly strict, far less than many families I know, but there are a few rules, and she only gets punished for breaking those, ans she knows, she's always given a warning, yet she will still go mad...not evrey time, and that's what drives me crazy, as there is no pattern in her outbursts.
She will be fine about one something for weeks and then suddenly the same thing will cause a huge outburst of anger....

What I use with my boys when arguing and whining etc gets particularly bad is a system called "1-2-3 Magic", based on a book a friend lent me. The premise is that when they start an undesirable behaviour (including arguing with you about something, or whining to get you to change your mind) you count them "1". If you think they may not know why you are counting, you explain briefly. You don't argue or get angry (the hard part.....). If they continue, you count them "2". If they still continue, you count them "3" and give them time out or a time out equivalent. I know you've said you've found time out hard to enforce - I had to resort to holding the door and allowing my 5 year old to trash his room, telling him the 5 minutes of time out would not start until he calmed down.
Giving them chances to stop their behaviour and also keeping your thoughts calm and on the counting really helps us. After a couple of days, they stop at 1 or 2. Then I forget about it until behaviour gets bad again.... I should be more consistent.
Don't know if this will help and sorry for the essay. You can get the book from Amazon, I think.

Logged on to moan about my 4yr old DS who is terrible at the moment!

DH has just gone out without him as he refused to fasten his coat. Argued for 10 mins getting cheekier and cheekier. Of course he has now come to annoy me!

He was horrible yesterday when I had a friend's DS for a few hours and that little boy was missing him Mum and crying and DS was just horrible. Ended up being horrible again and getting a clap - I hate doing it but just see red!.

Ended up kicking me and hittin me earlier this afternoon so I told him to go sit on the stairs. It's not officially a naughty step but is just about to become one I feel. He refused so the TV went off. He did finally sit there and I was amazed that I managed to stay reasonably calm.

But then 10 mins later he starts again arguing about fastening his coat before he can go out!

AAAAHHH!

It feels a bit better to know that we are not the only ones.

You are not alone I promise!

My ds (4) is something of a jekyll and hyde character - charming and lovely, and then suddenly becomes impossible to deal with. The "naughty" side seems to spring up without any provocation. The only thing that seems to work is adopting a consistent method of dealing with bad behaviour.

We also use the "123" system, with time out/withdrawal of toys as a consequence. It also seems to help if I use the same language every time I sense things are getting difficult -like (adopt a stern voice!) "Your behaviour is not acceptable. Stop crying/put your coat on before I count to 3 or you will go to your room". This seems to work with ds as he realises when he hears these words that I am serious and will follow through!

Does ds go to pre-school? If so, it may also help if you get ds's nursery to join in with a consistent approach.

Hope this helps.

Hve to revive this thread has I had yet another horrible day with dd1. I just don't seem to be able to fend off her outbursts anymore (not that I ever was very successful but once in a while I did it).

This is a long post so bear with me and thanks in advance to those who will ahve the patience to read it through and will offer some advice.

I'd just like to understand what I'm doing wrong and whatever I'm doing is obviously not working at all...so I'll describe today to you and feel free to comment on my lack of aprenting skills......

I ahve to wake dd1 even if she had an early night at 7.30am to get ready for school, and make it clear we can't waste any time...go down for breakfast, she wants tea (decaf) and biscuits, not my ideal but fine as long as she eats...half an hour later she's nibbled 2 1/2 custard creams and left there most of the tea. We go upstairs to get dressed. She starts playing with a book, I tell her there's no time and we need to get dressed quickly, take her pjs off, while \i get her uniform starts playing with book again, remove book. She whinges I remind her I'd tol her before. Finally I go and get dressed and ask her to put shoes and cardigan on, she does it quickly and is praised and rewarded with a few minutes tv while I finish getting ready. Then off to school.

Later I pick her up with dd2, get to the car, strap dd2 in car seat and ask dd1 to wait, but she barges in the car climbing on top of dd2, I get angry as I'd asked to wiat, she wants some sweets dh left in the car at weekend, I say no because you didn't wait when I asked you.

She throws a tantrum, whingeing and asking for a sweet all the way home (at least its only 5 minutes). Try really hard to ignore her and use notmal voice when we get home. We go out immediately for some errands I need to make and she's ok, asks for a cake for after supper and we get it on the way back.
Once home I ask her tochange and go to the toilet, she has a UTI and she's only been once since this morning. She refuses. I remind her she promised me, when she was crying in pain she would go when asked to and ask why doesn't she wnat to at least try for me. Because she doesn't want to. I say she's not having her cake as she's breaking a promise, she goes mental. I try to ignore the mayhem again and ask her if she needs help getting dressed, no, ok I'm going downstairs then, 'no' she shourts 'you stay here', 'shall I help you get dressed and then we go downstairs together?' 'no' 'what would you like to do?' 'Nothing@ and so on, so since its clear she doens't knmow what seh wants and I can't get her out of her tantrum, I go downstairs, while she screams her head off because she doens't want to be alone. I resist the urge to shout back and play with dd2, close the living room door to keep the noise out. after half an hour she bellows 'I'M NOT COMING IF YOU DON'T OPEN THE DOOR!!!'. I open the door without looking or saying anything. She finally comes downstairs stamping her feet, demands her dummy. (for past 6 months dummy is night time only) I tell her its still early and she knows its just for bed, another screaming session starts.
Finally she asks if she can ahve her teaddy bear and cuddles on the sofa with it. Once I see she's calm I go and cuddle her and explain why i got so angry, told when she breaks a promise she makes me angry like I did to her when I said she couldn't have her cake anymore. She does not engage with me, she will not reply to my questions or show in any way that she understands my point, and I know its deliberate.

she then drwas a bit, I start making tea, help her with homework, she has her tea reasonably well.

When bath is ready I have to ask about 3 times before she finally gets undressed, bath is ok, after bath she's in high spirits and very giggly with our aupair, and she fiddles a lot. I manage to put her pjs on than ask her to put her socks on while I tidy up, and she keeps playing, aks again (still calm) 2 more times, I am completely ignored, I finally shout 'put your socks on or no tv', she still wastes time, I say 'fine no tv'. She then hurries to put them on and starts whinging she wants tv, I tell her I've already said not tv and that's that, she should ahve put her socks on first time I asked. Whinges a bit longer, I go downstairs to make milk for dd2, she comes and asks for milk for her. I then put dd2 to bed whilke she has milk in her room with aupair. When I go her we cuddle in bed and I ask her why do we always get so angry? can't you be a good girl for mummy? She says she doesn't know why she can't. I ask her baout going to the toilet, she finally tells me, she doesn't want me to remind her, she wants to decide by herself when to go, I explain once again about the infection and that mummy just wants to help her and she needs to go more often, and doesn't she want me to help her? no, comes the reply. (ah but you wanted me ant 12am when weeing was really painful and you slept all night in my bed!! I thought, but did note say anything).

That's it a typical day for us. (except we didn't ahve any arguments about eating but we usually do)
What do you think?
My mum thinks I'm too strict and I expect too much from a 4 1/2 year old. Dh thinks its just the way she's done and there's very little we can do about it!

I feel so worn out, so frustrated, I just want to be able to enjoy my daughter without arguing all the time, I wish I could calm her down once the tantrum has started without her screaming like a wild animal, I feel I am totally out of touch with her, I can't get through to her I just don't know what to do anymore

I have a 4 and a bit year old who has also just started reception. He is argumentative and fundamentally annoying. His 2 year old brother is much more engaging.

It sounds like you are at the end of your tether, tired with having to juggle both kids and giving out unpredictable signals. Giving treats and removing them without adequate warning or consistency.

I think the food is an issue - sugary treats raise the blood level and then you crash afterwards helping to create unpredictable moods.
Personally, I think giving a child custard creams for breakfast is worse than giving them nothing. Offer her some sensible food and if she refuses then give her nothing. Both mine have tried this on with me - took DS2 out for lunch today and he refused to eat the sandwich because he wanted the chocolate biscuit. He didn't get the biscuit, he lived and ate well at dinner.

Also you need to lower the temperature and build in some fun time for you and DD1 - enjoy each others company and suddenly your DD1's behaviour will seem less horrendous. Decide how you are going to deal with a certain situation and then follow through.

Sticker charts and pasta jars also work for some people. Personally i am too disorganised for me to ever follow through.

Your daughter sounds normal, you being at the end of your tether is normal - I am constantly.

thanks kaz33

food is (has always been) an issue, but I see no difference in her behaviour whatsoever if she doesn't have any sugar/chocolate things.
I always try to get her to have cereals/toast, but starting the day with a battle sometimes is just too much, and I feel quite bad sending her to school with nothing in her stomach at all. I don't do this at other meals, as I know she'll eat later, but I think she needs all her energy at school and if she goes without breakfast she'll be a complete wreck during the day!!

We do a star chart, but doesn't do much. She's happy to get a reward when she gets there, but will not change her behaviour just to achieve that. We do fun things together, just not too many as I find she's so tired after school, but we go the library, we bake things, play games on the pc, but they invariably end up ina sour note as she'll have a tantrum about something...

I'm sure I'm not consistent as you say, there's just too many tantrums in a day to be, but I always give her warnings, she gets a running countdown about everything, from getting dressed to eating, to how mich time she still has in the bath, to how long before we have to elave someone's house...to the point I feel stupid, and it helped to start with when she was around 2, but not anymore. Only afew days ago at breakfast she was playing up as usual, her bowl of rice pops still untouched and showed her the clock and told her when its eight we need to go and get dressed, and she started fidgeting even more, looking at the clock asking how long but not eating. when the time was up I told her, now we go upstairs and she just went mental and insisted she wanted to eat!

But thanks for the post, I know she's normal, but I really want to find a way out

forgot to mention, she's been like this since she was 18 months, which might explain why I feel so low..

One other point - I would try and avoid taking DS1 out to do chores after school as I know he is knackered and all he wants to do is crash at home infront of the TV - bad mummy.
You are asking a lot of her.

Sorry if I sounded judgemental.

you're not judgemental, it's always good to hear objective opinions, and obviously, you can only judge from my account of one day, so don't worry

I know breakfast is a big issue, but breakfast has always been a big problem for us, she just doesn't seem hungry at all.

I do try to avoid chores, but today I had to go to the drycleaners and I let her ride on dd2s buggy. I have actually encouraged her to watcha bit of tv after school and she has always refused it, believe it or not, she can be incredibly energetic even after a full day at school!!

well, time for bed now, trying to gain some energy for another hard day!!!

Thank you kaz33

Webmum - phew - it does sound quite exhausting - poor you.

Forgive me - I'm no expert, so this is suggestion rather than 'opinion' iyswim, and as the Mum of a 4.5 year-old myself, i am blundering around doing all sorts of things i'd do differently if i had the chance!
It does seem that in the heat of the moment, you make up sanctions - no sweets for jumping in car, no cake for not going to toilet. This might seem like unpredicatable bolts from the blue to DD, and i wonder if it might help to instigate a separate but consistent set of sanctions - pasta jar, or whatever. So when things get tetchy, you know what to say, that is you consistent sanction, and she understands where it fits in the system.

I also agree with Kaz, and would specifically avoid using food as a sanction / reward, especially if you do often have arguments about food. it is much better for food to remain a 'neutral' thing, rather than reward or treat / punishment. Can you sit down with her and have some toast or cereal?

I try and maintain a lot of NotQuiteCockney's method, as well. Ignoring anything that is done to wind me up (talking in a silly voice is DS's speciality - I just don't respond when he does it), lots of explaining and consultation, and still lots of distraction and aversion from out and out confrontation. I really work to avoid that because once it starts, you have to persist until you have won, which shreds my nerves!

have already posetd on this thread-my 4 year old is exausting in pretty much the same way.!!

I make him get dressed before he goes downstairs-that way he has an incentive to dress and I know than when he is downstairs there is only breakfast to deal with and he can manage to eat that himself!

I don't argue about breakfast-my dh is constantly worried about going to school on an empty stomach-I don't think he will do it twice! If he doesn't sit up and eat his cereal-he goes to school hungry (despite his protestations he has NEVER not eaten something)

I never do chores after school-asking for trouble!

IT does sometimes feel like negotiating a minefield doesn't it?-I try to remember that they are very small and spend much of their school day doing stuff to somebody elses agenda- they must get hacked off!!!

Actually, Webmum, I have never set up a punishment system myself. I have tried threats and warnings, but experience of that tells me that if I said to DS 'if you don't eat that delicious ice cream, we are not going to buy a toy' he would refuse to eat his ice cream - out of sheer defiance! However, he actively loves star charts. We draw them out together, and I always draw a lovely decorated star on them, and it works, every time.