How do you deal with an argumentative 4+ year old?

[IlanaK]

Ds1 is becoming very argumentative and more difficult to deal with. I have my own ideas about how to improve things, but would love to hear what other people do.

He is obviously asserting his independance and will point his finger at me and make a "mean" face and argue back to me. I find it really hard not to get cuaght up in arguements with him.

So, what do you all do?

Agree with Blu that sanctions seem to be made up on the hop, rather than decided before hand by you then explained to her.

I would re-arrange the morning routine so that she has to get dressed before she comes down stairs, then that she has to eat breakfast (a proper one not biscuits! If she refuses she won;t starve - could you pack her off with a banana or something if you're really worried about going ot school on an empty stomach?). Once she is dressed and has had breakfast then the reward is tv. The quicker she does all that the longer she gets to watch tv for!

For the sanctions I would insist she stays in her room for 5 minutes, and explain over and over that is what will happen. If she continues to scream you go up and say you can either stop screaming and come downstairs or you can stay in your room another 5 minutes. Don't say anything else AT ALL. Do not answer her questions. Then leave her and let her make her own mind up.

When she said I'm not coming down unless you open the door you went and opened the door! Althogh you ignored her I think this just reinforced that she was in control and she had got you to do something she wanted.

None of this is easy and you need dh on your side. Perhaps you should make a definaye date when the new regime starts, and make sure you have nothing planned for after school for a couple of weeks until she understands it.

Does pocket money work? I found that stickers eventually got boring, but 50p a week for tidying bedrooms and another 50p for general good behaviour worked wonders!

As the original poster, I wanted to add my opinion. I agree that you need to be consistent about sanctions and not make one up on the spur of the moment. Think about what she likes best - maybe tv? Use this as the reward/sanction. Also, I have found adding some structure has helped. Also, give a 5 minute warning before any change. So, if she has to turn off the tv to leave the house, tell her 5 minutes before. And then 2 minutes before, etc. This works with my ds. I agree about getting dressed before breakfast if she is making an issue about getting dressed. Or, since she doesn't care that much about breakfast, it could just be getting dressed before coming downstairs. Then she essentially wouldn't be able to have tv until she was dressed.

Thanks for the replies, lots of useful sugegstions, nit all them practical I'm afraid...I prefer to get her dressed after breakfast, so I don't have to worry about her getting her uniform dirty, and then have to change her again! (i'm impressed you all manage to do that to be honest!)

I do eat with them, its' always me and teh dds at breakfast and I usually ahve cereal/toats like dd2.

The reason why my 'punishments' seem on the spur of the moment, is that I think I have to withdraw something that's about to happen soon, no point in saying no tv tonight when its 8am, I thought? (or at least this is what I've always read in books) If I leave her in her room she really goes mental, she'll scream like mad for hours making me feel like a really cruel mum (and I do wonder, shoudl I really be doing this?) Its never ever worked, tried time out/naughty step when she was 2 but could never get her to actually stay there.

The reason I opened the door for her, was that I knew she was looking for a way out, and that was my chance to give her a way of calming down without losing her face. I understand what you say about being in control, but one of the things that really sets her off is this, she doesn't like being told what to do, even though I only limit it to what's strictly necessary. Its like the toilet thing, she refuses to go simply because I remind her, so she has an iron will, she can go on for hours, which is why I need an escape route that doesn't involve, anything like 'you stay in your room until you calm down', as she'll work herself in such a rage, you should see her, I need to find a way, that's not me giving in to her whims, but allows her to comply without feeling she is actually giving in to my requests IFKWIM.

Like you say Blu, avoiding direct confrontation is the key, but how do you do that?

Some of you ahve mentioned pasta jars, whats this? Never heard of them

thanks again to all of you who have posted!!

Webmum I have a dd the same age and one a year older and I will be honest that consistancy is the key for me. We have always used a naughty step and this helps as there is ONE punishment that is standard for being naughty. In some ways I feel (perhaps by your post) you make up a punishment there and then, which maynot suit the crime IYKWIM.

I can understand why you have gone down the biscuit route for breakfast, but this isn't the bad behaviour. I think some things you are too harsh on, the getting in the car for instance. I wouldn't have 'got angry' at that one, unless she had hurt dd2 Not allowing the sweets should have been separate, you didn't say to her, if you wait you can have some sweets, or even if you don't wait you can't have sweets, so she didn't know they were dependant on each other. I would have said no sweets, full stop. And used them later as a bribe

Again it was similar with the cake, in her eyes you 'promised' her the cake, then took it away. She didn't now the cake was dependant on the loo.

I am in NO WAY suggesting you are not a great parent, I consider myself the worlds worst But the one thing I do as punsihment is the naughty step, there is no other punishment/taking away priviliges, unless I have forwarned then. EG If we are going into town, I may say 'if you are good you can have a bun from te shop' But if they asked for a bun, I wouldn't say 'yes' then later if they were naughty say 'you can't have a bun now you were naughty' Does this make sense?

Good luck with it all

Just reading your last post now webmum, and can see why you make 'on the hop' punishments, but IMHO that works great for smaller children, who have no concept of 'later', but your dd should understand more. Also my personal veiw is that things are only threatened/taken away AFTER the bad behaviour, rather than being offered before IYKWIM.

It is so hard and I often resort to full on rows with mine But they do sit on the step, or go to their room. Yes they used to get off, but we spent time being EXTRA strict, now they don't have a certain time, they just go there to calm down.

Re breakfast - tea towel round her? Really do think dressed then breakfast then tv is they way to go. Might be worth a try at least.

Re leaving her in her room. I think the fact that you question it as a punishment negates it as a punishment IYSWIM. It is a GREAT punishment - the best! keep at it and believe. If you set your mind to it you can probably change her behaviour in two weeks - let's face it two weeks is not going to kill her, and it will could potentially change your realtionship for the better for life.

I think also giving her a way out without her losing face is the wrong way to look at it. She is being punished - she should be losing face. You say it's one of those things that sets her off - being told what to do. Well she's 4, she needs to get used to being told what to do! You can;t avoid it just because she will have a tantrum. Time out in her room. If she hasn;t calmed down tell she has the choice of calming down or staying there for another 5 minutes. No more conversation. Then 5 minutes later go up again, say the same thing. Yes for the first few nights she literally might spend all afternoon/evening in her room. But she'll soon learn you're the boss not her. And plenty of rewards, positive attention when she does behave.

Thanks Crunchie, I do think you're right in that she may be now be able to understand later, its just the way we started things off and have not hcnaged as she got older...And you're right about the car, I have probably overreacted but every single time I ask something of her, she does the opposite, so there are times when I lose my aptience easily as its just one on top of many others...

Just now re-reading your post, I started crying as I can see where I've gone wrong and it makes sense but its soo difficult..sometimes I just feel like I'm not up to the job....

Pasta jars: Two jars, one with pasta pieces in, pne empty. Each pasta piece represents 5p, or other reward. If she plays up, threaten to remove a pasta piece into the other jar, or box. And do so if the playing up continues. At the end of the week, rewards are only gven for pasta pieces still in the jar! Some people allow them to earn pasta back for being good, or doing a good thing as asked. Good, because it is a very visual clue to how well they are doing, how much they have lost, and how much they have and want to keep!

I haven't used it myself - we do star charts - but for specific things. For sitting at the table until meal is finished, usually!

It is easy to sit here and tell you where you have gone wrong, it is far more difficult to actually do it.

Like I said I am an appaling 'Healthy Neglect' type of mum. However certain things have worked for us and got us past a lot of the horrid stages. DD1 who is 6.5 is the sulker and if you tell her off, she runs to her room and slams the door. She then needs a bit of time, before I go in and have a chat about her behaviour.

DD2 has a horrible tendency to scream at me when she is upset, she yells so loud, she almost scares herself, so runs away to her room, where she sobs her heart out! Once she is feeling better she comes back for a cuddle and says sorry.

However this has only been achieved by a consistant policy of removing them (to teh step or their room) from an early age (2 ish)

I still shout at them, get totally unreasonable with them etc etc. BUT it is rare as they have learnt that being good gives them far more.

Please don't get upset. Take a deep breath and work our your flashpoints. Then work out ways to deal with them. Our flashpoints are in the morning when they wake me up!! or bedtime. I ahve spent a lot of time shouting at them on both these occassions

thank you for your kind words crunchie, it has been bettter the last couple of days, I have tried to implement the go to your bedroom technique and the first days she spent about half an hour there (amazingly she didn't come out!!!), but yesterday all I had to do was say, do you want to go to your room for 5 minutes? and she'd change behaviour... Not sure how long it'll last but at least I get some relief! and some fun time together.

One question though, what do you do when you're not at home and you cannot send them to their room?

Thanks again to everyone for teh advice and support!!!

Keep it up Webmum, keep that consitancy going, Make yourself a starchart and give yourself a star when you do another good day - or a bottle of wine, which is better

Nowadays when we are out and about I can use - yu will go and sit on the step when we get home, but to start with it would be Time Out wherever we were.

A chair in M&S, a corner between shops, a park bench etc. Somewhere that I could stand, back turned for a few mins (usually less than a minute tbh) It is all about the withdrawl of attention, rather than length of time (for my kids anyway) They cannot think of a worse punishment than to be shut out of something.

However you also need the 'Praise the good' side of things. So when you are out, say thank you for walking nicely, Make a real fuss of her if she is good. I do bribe mine by saying things like, Mummy has to do XYZ in teh shops, but if you are good and patient while I do these things, we will go and get a bun afterwards. If you aren't good, there will be no bun, do you undertand? I also still explain what we are going to be doing - eg we will go into 3 shops etc etc. If we then go into another shop it is not fair on my kids and they will whine!! However I alsways get distracted and do end up doing other stuff, but I still keep praising the good etc, offering teh bun (carrot) an explaining the consequenses.

Goodluck

My dd has some shocking tantrums and wears me out completely. One thing I've learned is to pick my fights carefully otherwise I get to the end of the day and think what a horrid mum I've been - telling her off about one thing after another. Back to your original post I'm just wondering if your dd needs to put socks on, needs to go to the toilet at that particular minute. As others have said once you've got a confrontation it's impossible for dd to do what you want her to without losing face so that means tantrum is inevitable. Where I have a situation when I want dd to do something and she says no sometimes I let it go and walk away whereupon she often does it or I'll distract her with something else and then try again later when she's feeling more positive and there''s no pressure e.g. just present her with the socks when she's looking at a book and my dd would probably just put them on forgetting there was ever an issue about it.

I end up doing a lot of self-questioning - what was my motivation for getting dd to do that at that moment? Was it really necessary or was it because I was in a bad mood or stressed or disorgnanised? I don't waste my time with little things. Don't care about a bit or dirt or a messy house but I do have rules and routines (e.g. when, how and what we eat, bedtime etc) which I stick to and dd is very, very clear about these.

Also, I'd advise you to never, never make food into a battle-ground. If she doesn't eat something just take it away without a fuss and next time she will. If you offer an alternative (biscuits for breakfast - oh dear!!) then she'll never accept healthy food. If she's already become used to getting alternatives or getting attention for refusing food it will take a long time and firmness from the whole family to improve this situation. Have you seen Little Angels and read the book? Highly recommended.

thanks for the encouragement crunchie and the extra advice!!

thanks spiderfan too, I see what you mean, but believe I already do pick my battles carefully! the going to the toilet is a BIG issue because if left to herself she would keep it the whole day and then she gets infetcions, and every time we risk kidney damage, she won't ven tell me if it hurts her, so it takes a while before I realise if she has an infection!

But I do realise sometimes I push for things that could wait, its really difficult to be consistent and patient all the time. It doesn't help that her tantrums are completely unpredictable! For example, this morning I could not wake her up and by the time I managed it was quite late, still, she had breakfast (organic corn flakes with milk!! that is a first and she asled for them !!) quickly and let me dress her without fussing, she did not ask to watch tv or anything...BUT I didn't do anything different froma ny other day!!!

And I DO DO a lot of praise, its the one thing I've always done (as every book tells you), its the one thing that comes easy to me, its become so automatic that I findmyself saying well done to just about every child (I even said it to dh once!!)

food, is a very sensitive subject. SHe's never been a very good eater, and I've never given sweets to replace main meals (biscuits at breakfast are the exception), but other that she's only offered healthy stuff (i'm italian after all we don't do junk food!!). But when you say no pudding if you don't eat your main meal, you are creating a battle, aren't you??? And she knowsw EXTREMELY well she's not allowed sweets/choccies, other than after her meal, as its been like this since she discovered them really, but she still tries sometimes!!

ayway, lots of good ideas here, will keep them in mind, and hopefully you wont here from me agin for awhile (until the next crisis....)

Hi Webmum - I recognise your child!!! - mt DD2??.
You have had fab advice here and I have taken it on board too.
One thing that works for me in the face of DD2's stuboness is a "choice". ie: If you carry on screaming and crying you will go to your room. If you want to stay down here with us you must stop sreaming. It is up to to you, you choose what to do"
and it works.....

Webmum, it actually sounds like you're doing a great job. The fact that you are always trying to improve and on Mumsnet to share advice has to be one sign of a good parent. One thing to remember is young children and indeed all children are difficult. One thing that's helped me is to remember that my dds wouldn't be normal if they didn't have tantrums and test boundaries. It's a sign that they're developing normally and gradually learning independence. Every other parent is doing battle with their children just usually behind closed doors so we all thing they're all getting it right and it's just us who's doing the wrong thing.

I think you're absolutely spot one spiderfan,

but it always feels like yours is the only one, hard to remember when you've had a string of bad days...I should probably print this thread and read every time things get tough!!!

Such a relief to see this thread.My DS1 (4.4) is AWFUL at the moment and I sometimes struggle to see the little child I love so much. He has an absolute will of iron and a fearsome temper. Like me at the same age according to my mother (!) His younger brother is only 14months younger than him and the poor little soul is often left to his own devices while I try to deal with the tantrums. cue more guilt. Horrible situation the other night when DS2 was being sick and throwing up all over the bedroom (and me) much to the absolute amusement of DS1 who was laughing out loud at his little brother;s misfortune. I was so stressed I could feel my heart banging away. DH doesn't get home until 8.30pm each evening, so I'm left to deal with it all on my own. I'm determined to try some of the methods listed here to deal with DS1, but how do I ensure DS2 gets the attention he deserves too?

hello joulou1

welcome to the club!! .

Is your ds1 not at nursery/school/playgroup?

I manage to spend some lovely time with dd2 while dd1 is at school, then afternoons are more less spent around dd1. At the moment I ahve an aupair to help me at bedtime/morning rush, but when I'm alone I usually give them a bath early then put dd1 in front of a video while give dd2 her milk and a cuddle and put her to bed about half hour before her sister. I then spend the rest of the time with dd1 and we read a story in bed.