Please help! I need alternatives to the naughty step.

[BornToFolk]

DS (3.5) is going through a trying phase with lots of tantrums if he doesn't get his own way.
In the past, we've used the naughty step as a sanction (amongst other things) but it's not working. I'm at a loss of what to do.

For example, this morning, he asked for Weetabix for breakfast so I made him Weetabix, put it on the table and he came to sit up and started whinging that he didn't want Weetabix. I told him that he'd asked for it so he had to eat it. He got angry and picked up the bowl and slammed it down, spilling milk everywhere. I picked him up and took him to the naughty step, and told him to sit there for 3 mins.

He was OK about sitting there but after 3 mins, I went to get him and ask him to say sorry and come back to the table and he refused to say sorry so I told him to stay there and that's where it got messy! He shouts, I shout, he's given lots of chances to say sorry and come and sit back at the table but he refuses and stays in the hall, throwing shoes around etc.

Eventually, he calmed down and ate his breakfast. When he was finished, I gave him a cloth and told him to wipe up the milk he'd spilt.

I've read "How to Talk..." and I like it but I just don't think it would work in situations like this. He actually likes to clean up so if I'd have given him a cloth as soon as he'd made a mess he wouldn't have been bothered! But he still would have made a fuss about breakfast...

Argh! What can I be doing? He's generally very good - 2 years was a breeze but since he's been 3 his behaviour has got worse and I feel unprepared for it!

What should I have done this morning?

it sounds from your post that you hve reaceted in anger and put him on the naughty step. Have you been using it more than you did before. You could have taken the bowl away and cleaned up together and then got the bowl back fo rhim to eat. Back to the step why not rename it the thinking step- then he can think and you can discuss why he is angry or why he has done something he can then say sorry afterwards .

Naomi Aldort's "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves" is another good book. I've also read "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn, but that is at the far end of the spectrum and not for everyone.

I don't have a 3yo, so I don't have any specific experience...only an idea of what I'd like to with DD in that sort of situation when she's older. Others may have more practical advice, I don't know.

Personally, if he'd have asked for Weetabix and then decided he didn't want it, I'd have given him the option to eat it, or to get down from the table. Just a simple "OK, you don't want your Weetabix. I'll put it here in the kitchen, let me know when you would like it" and move on. Talk to him, "You chose Weetabix, so today that is what I made. What are you going to have tomorrow?"

Validating his feelings is a big feature of both of the books I mentioned, so if he kicked off, saying things like "Wow, you seem like you're feeling cross that you have Weetabix today", "I see you'd like something else, but today you chose Weetabix"

Maybe make some suggestions for other things that he can chose later in the day? Lunch/Dinner/Activity?

By doing it this way, you're still not letting him call the shots, but you're respecting and understanding his feelings a bit more. When you're 3, what you have for breakfast is desperately important. It's easy to poo-poo it as silly or whatever. But if you don't acknowledge his feelings, he will not only feel annoyed at the Weetabix situation, but frustrated that you don't understand, and angry that you won't listen. Putting him on the Naughty Step for getting angry isn't beneficial IMO, it doesn't teach him to manage his emotions, only that his emotions aren't valid or wanted.

As I said, just musings from me. But the books I mentioned are really good for getting into a different way of thinking, and moving away from just "treating" the behaviour and not really solving any issues.

Justalittle's suggestions are excellent - take his mind off the fact that he has decided to complain. You could also say 'you asked for weetabix, but if you're still hungry when you've finished it you can have some toast'. But presumably he likes weetabix, having asked for it in the first place, so to an extent he's being awkward for the sake of it. I would be less sympathetic than justa.

I'd also add that asking for an apology seems often to be a recipe for disaster in my house - somehow it builds a relatively minor incident into a major one, and the more I insist on an apology the less they are able to give one. Once you're done with the punishment I'd be done with it.

Ah, DD was quite well-behaved at 2, so we (stupidly) thought that the 'terrible 2s' weren't too bad. We then had what we call 'the tortuous 3s.

We still use a 3-step system - 1 told not to do whatever it is and if it's done again will go to the step for X mins, 2 step, 3 timer bleeps and she comes to us and explains why she was punished and says sorry - we then usually discuss why she behaved that way and if there is anything she can do differently. If she isn't ready to say sorry, she stays there until she is. For us we found naughty step works fairly well (and is easily adapted outside home). If DD continues to misbehave, we add a minute each time.

However, we have found voice tone (and volume) to be a real clincher. If we speak in our normal voice, DD thinks we don't really mean it. I have found if I speak at my usual volume, slowly/calmly and slightly lower in tone she takes me more seriously. It is really hard sometimes when you have a small person screaming/shouting, kicking/pinching/biting, to keep calm, but we have found it has faster results than anything else we've tried. I have found as DD knows me so well, she knows all the buttons to push to provoke a reaction. Knowing that has actually made it easier for me to stay calm (and not shout back).

I actually didn't react with anger initially, I just calmly took him from the table and sat him on the step....but yes, I fully admit to getting angry later!

Thanks for the book recommendations, justalittle.

It's interesting what you say about offering him choices as this is something I've always done but I'm starting to think that it's causing more problems that it solves! For example, after lunch, I asked him what he wanted for pudding and he would not choose. He had a few options and just kept saying "I don't know" or asking for something that we don't have. In the end I got fed up with it and said no pudding at all and there was another tantrum. He does a similar thing with choosing books or CDs, just keeps saying "I don't know..." He's totally playing me. He chose the bloody Weetabis this morning and still kicked off about it! That's what annoys me, I don't care whether he has Weetabix or porridge as long as he eats it nicely.

I'm actually thinking of giving him less choice - it could be the tough decision between custard and yoghurt is blowing his tiny mind!

Actually, I think he's got a lot going on developmentally at the moment - he's telling stories all the time. And he's in the process of dropping his nap (though is sleeping at the moment thank goodness!) so is tired more frequently. I'm sure this phase will pass - they all do - but it's how to manage his behaviour in the meantime. Flinging food around at the table is not acceptable and he's old enough to know that.

alarkspree, thank you for posting that! I'm going to stop insisting on an apology. You're right - it does escalate the situation. And he's actually pretty good at spontaneous apologies if he bumps into you etc so I don't want to spoil that.

Also, just wanted to clarify what I was saying about him "telling stories" in my last post. He's suddenly discovered his imagination and has gone from being quite a literal child to telling these elaborate stories. If you ask him "is that true, or imagination?" he'll say "it's from my head!" It's very cute and I'm encouraging it but I do think there's a lot going on in his head at the moment...

We used to use the step for ds (3.3) but he would just piss about and keep getting up. He treated it like a game.

We have now gone back to the 1,2,3 warning thing. So for example if he stands up on his chair at the table he gets a 1. If he were to do it again he would get a 2 and told what will happen if we get to 3 (usually no treat after tea if it's tea time). Usually the behaviour stops then but if he is in one of those moods he will test the boundry. It's then that he gets upset but I always follow through otherwise he will just take the mickey.

If he messes about with food choices (ie flavour of yoghurt) then he doesn't get it until he can decide. We usually end up sitting back down and he will all of a sudden decide he wants x and sticks with it.

Sometimes he will just yell at me that he doesn't want breakfast and I say "ok then but i'm hungry so I am getting some come in when you are ready" he will be there in 1 min flat 99.9% of the time

I'm in the same boat and was going to post an identical message!
I have a dd (just turned 2) who is a stubborn little madam. At the moment, we are having big problems with her lashing out at me - she usually goes for my face. It can be a quick reaction to something - like me trying to put her shoes on if she doesn't want to- but it can also be more considered and apparently random. We were doing a jigsaw the other day, having a lovely time, and then she stopped, looked at me, thought about it and smacked me in the face. No-one else gets it, not even Daddy. We tell her it's naughty, we take her out to the naughty step, and she sits there, quite happily. We do insist on an apology, but she knows that saying sorry means admitting defeat, so she often won't. She rarely cries or fusses, just sits on the step quite readily and when we go back for her, she often refuses so she continues to sit there. The record so far is 45 minutes. No tears, but no apology.

The other day, she hit me, we sat her on the step, she took around 15 minutes to apologise. When she did, we very deliberately went from cold and stern to over-the-top happy ('Good girl. Wow, now we can have fun. What shall we do?') but she looked at me, ran down the hall after me and whacked me on the leg. Back to square one.

We did our whole supermarket trip the other day with her hitting me - I tried taking her to the back of the store, turning the trolley round so she couldn't see anything and waiting it out but after 20 minutes I gave up and just ignored her, staring over her head as I finished my shop. Didn't change her behaviour. I try very hard to stay calm, speaking in a low, firm tone. But I'm at a loss as to know how to stop it.

All ideas welcome. And hopefully I will pick up some tips from replies to the original post.

Food is not a good thing to fight over.

I can see why it was annoying, but it's not such a biggie really. I think the "you have to eat it" is a bit like a red rag to a bull- no one likes being told they have to do things, and I never tell children they have to eat things- it's important for them to decide themselves about eating- sometimes they have a condition, no pudding unless you eat main course etc but otherwise no have to.

I would like pp said just have said calmly well, this is your breakfast, you chose this today, tomorrow you can choose something different if you don't like it.

We are very boring and there is no choice for breakfast. It's toast. They drink milk before breakfast (2 and 4) so I figure wholemeal toast is ok.

Thing is, Tgger, if he'd have just said he wasn't hungry, that'd be fine. If he hadn't had the choice, I wouldn't mind him refusing to eat it. It was the fact that he'd asked for Weetabix, then started whinging for something different (he was offered raisins on his Weetabix, or toast afterwards if still hungry but no...), then slammed his bowl. That's the behaviour I object to.

Yes I remember this sort of scenario with ds. My response was usually 'oh that's a pity because these weetabix have a really special extra ingredient, if you eat them they make you super fast at running and super high at jumping'. This sort of distraction would usually do the trick.

thx1138 I use that too, "oooo those peas will make you ride your bike really fast" or "that chicken will help you bounce really high" works really well here too!

Asking for something then wanting to have something else is completely normal toddler (2-4) behaviour. I think I would have bigger fish to fry.

He slammed his bowl because you backed him into a corner- he "had" to eat it. It's easier for them if you leave an avenue of escape. Something like "well, you asked for weetabix so I want you to sit here and see if your tummy decides it would like some, or if not then there's no more food until snack time/whatever".

At this age they rarely say what adults would say, (eg I'm not hungry) and they are ruled by their emotions and all sorts of things not privy to the adult mind. Don't take it personally, well that's my advice.

By the way, I didn't really answer your question, sorry. We quit the naughty step at about 3 as it was too much trouble and dealt with the big things by sending DS to his room. We still do this (now 4.5) and it works for us. Gets a bit of space to calm down for everyone.

"He slammed his bowl because you backed him into a corner- he "had" to eat it. It's easier for them if you leave an avenue of escape."

You're right, I did. I will ty harder to leave him a "get out". And try harder to distract too. Breakfast is always tricky as I'm not at my best till I've had a cup of tea and some food, and DS is the same (well, he doesn't need caffeine but when his blood sugar is low, he's grumpy!)

babybythesea, if I were you I'd ditch the naughty step idea. 45 mins sitting there is not good! It's obviously not putting her off hitting. It sounds as though she's looking for a reaction and I'd try very hard not to give one. If you are having a nice time playing and she suddenly lashes out, you could try just walking away. Give her a warning "we don't hit people. I'd like to finish this puzzle with you but if you hit me again, I'm going to go and do something else". If she does hit again, walk away, if she doesn't, finish playing.

Completely empathise with the grumpy in the morning thing. I'm the same- I am very lucky my DH brings me a cuppa before I get up in the morning . And my DS who is 4.5 still has milk in the morning on wake up to avoid this issue too! (partly cos his 2 year old sis has it, but I don't see the harm).

Thanks, borntofolk. We have been talking about ditching 'the step' as it clearly has no impact. I am going to try ignoring - only done this so far when I've had no option (like when shopping) and it hasn't worked, but then neither can I walk away from her there, so she's just kept batting at me through the whole visit. She's not done it for a day or two but she does go through phases of it, a few days doing it then a few days not.
Sometimes it's just nice to know other people are battling too! Terrible twos sounds quite cute and entertaining until you are living with it!!!

On the food thing, a friend of mine used to give her kids two warnings about meals. If they messed with their food after that, it went in the bin and nothing else was forthcoming until the next snack/meal time. They learnt, and fast. Now they are beautifully behaved at meal times. When they say they don't want it you know they mean it and are not messing around in the hope of getting a treat! It was hard work for her but my god it was worth it (she's also got quite a big family so she said she had to lay the ground work early as it could easily get out of hand!) We've sort of followed suit. My dd gets what's on offer, with some limited choice (like you - I might ask if she wants weetabix or porridge). If she doesn't want it, I don't fuss about it, I ask her once or twice, and then I tell her if she doesn't want it she can get down. It isn't usually a breakfast issue here, she eats like a horse first thing, but her appetite peters out through the day so dinner is our flash point. She often tries to ask for something else (chocolate, biscuits, cake!!) but we stick to it. She can have 'pudding' if she eats some of her dinner. If she doesn't, she gets down and gets nothing. We don't get cross, but we do stick to it. Sometimes it means she basically misses a meal, but she is healthy and has lots of energy so I'm not worried by that. If she was hungry, she'd eat. If she changes her mind, an hour or so later, we do let her come back to the table and we do the meal again, but it is the same food given again. Sometimes happens, but not often.

I hope you have success sorting out your breakfasts. I would also find early morning the worst time of the day to have these battles!!

Did he know what he was on the naughty step for? Was it for not eating his breakfast or for slamming the bowl? Did he know what were you asking him to say sorry for? He might not have been sorry for not eating but if you'd asked him, he might have been sorry for making a mess.

If he's generally very good then an outburst like you've described is possibly frustration at not having the ability to communicate the problem he is having to you. He didn't want the Weetabix when it arrived. Perhaps you could have asked him to eat it this time and then explained about how things would be wasted if he asked for things he didn't want. If he still didn't want it don't be in a hurry to clear it away. Mine have changed their minds as soon as the focus is off them. Next day remind him and ask if he really wants whatever it is he asks for.

Throwing the shoes around - again could just be frustration and I'd probably have sat him down (or waited until he calmed down) and told him a better way of dealing with the situation.

He's 3yo and most of the above would more than likely go over his head but over time they get the message. And it helps if they feel you are trying to understand them and the difficulties a 3yo can have Unfortunately, it can be a bit of a drain on your patience sometimes. I wouldn't bother about the naughty step. Only time I removed them with the younger children is if they were having a full-blown tantrum and upsetting everyone else. Then I'd either put them somewhere to calm down or remove myself until they (and me) had calmed down.

I would keep it simple, so the minute he complained about the weetabix I would have removed it with no comment. If he asked why, I would say because he said he didn't want it. He already had a choice of breakfast, now the choice is eat it or leave it. If he wants it back he has to ask properly without whining. This is fair, I would not expect a grown up to change their mind about cereal which is already served, then throw it in the bin. The aim is that they will turn into reasonable adults eventually, not to win a particular battle.

I never use the naughty step, or counting to three, but if there was behaviour like slamming a bowl down, I would tell them that 'we don't do that in this house' and in a tone where they knew I really meant it (how you would tell a slime ball who was trying it on with you when you're not interested except without the swearing). This works best if you only do it on occasions where it really matters, so once a week or less. Otherwise they will not see that it is more important than usual. Then get on with the next thing and try to have a positive interaction as soon as possible with that child. 45 mins is far too long to be cross with each other.

As for apologies, i can spot a child who's genuinely feeling sorry from one who's been made to say sorry, so do not insist on them saying it.

One thing I've found that works well is talking more about 'happy choices' and 'sad choices' i.e during everyday activities - perhaps if you see someone holding a door open for someone/ when you're giving cuddles/ he's helping to clear up say "thank you so much, what a happy choice!" and likewise if you see someone dropping litter/ a child screaming etc say "oh, well, that's a sad choice, isn't it?" it makes it a casual way of empowering him to make the right decisions and making him aware of exactly what a good/bad choice is. Also, if a child is told that they're naughty/ they're going on the naughty step etc, it becomes a word which they react to all the more and makes them angry as it's associated with being told off. Whereas by giving him a choice in certain situations ie "are you going to make a happy choice and help mummy clear up - then we can play with something else?" it gives him the time to think about what decision he's going to make - in a positive way - rather than 'if i don't do what im told, im going to go on the naughty step' - making him feel like he's making the choice.

juuule, yes he did know what he was on the naughty step for as I told him when I put him there and when I got him up, and I made it clear that it was for slamming the bowl and not for not eating. But usually, when he is put on the step, he gets a warning and this time he didn't which was not great...

Asinine, do you use any sanctions at all? Lots of the suggestions have ben more about avoiding bad behaviour (and have been very useful thank you!) which I definitely think is the right way to go about it, but what happens when the bad behaviour happens? Or when you tell them to stop doing something and they don't listen/won't be distracted etc?

Ooooh, also we had success at the table yesterday! I made stir fry and noodles (usually his favourite) and he took one look and said "I don't want it". I just said OK, then asked him what he'd been looking at on the computer with Daddy before dinner and started eating mine. He chatted for a bit and then said "I just eat the noodles", picked up his fork and started eating. He ended up eating all of the noodles and some of the veg. Result!

In the situation you describe, I would say to my DD (also 3), "don't eat it if you don't want it, I don't mind" and then I would wander off rather vacantly. Inevitably when I returned from brushing my teeth or whatever, she would have eaten the offending article- but happiest without an audience! (Toddler pride- not to be underestimated.)
This one can be taken to extremes. Recently we took DD to the zoo and she started whining that she didn't want to see the gorilla and so DH and I chanted in unison "shut your eyes then" and off we went.
Another alternative is the falling about laughing one. "whaaaat you don't want Weetabix! But you said you did! That's sooo silly! Hey teddy, listen up, she doesn't want weetabix but she said she did! how am I meant to keep up with your kerazy demands!" etc etc continue until child is laughing and forgets what they were cross about.

You asked about sanctions.
I don't punish my DD for refusing to eat, wanting to wear weird clothes etc- a lot of things which wind up other parents I just let go.
This means that when behaviour is completely unacceptable eg throwing things inside, extreme deliberate rudeness to an adult, hitting, biting, refusing to hold my hand when crossing the road, I go completely ballistic. If we are at home I put her in her room and speak to her in a voice which she only hears rarely, so it has a big impact. If I used that voice every day, and for the minor as well as the major naughtinesses, it just wouldn't work. I also think 3 is too small to insist on apologies.

Bornto Your ds is still little so they will try things on, just to see what happens. If you can keep calm and consistent things will improve gradually. Domestic's view on sanctions is the same as mine. So only use the really stern voice for behaviours which are the worst in your opinion (for me lying, or lack of respect for other people) and use mainly humour or frank discussion for the rest. So if they ask for food after dinner I don't get annoyed I'd say in strong French accent 'ze café eez now closed' or something. Or if they leave shoes lying around make them work out how many shoes would be lying around if all six members of the family did it all week etc. Answer 84.
IMO If they respect you and can see the sense behind the house rules, they will rarely need a good telling off.

Forgot to say, it sounds like you are doing a great job. Is ds your first dc? I know I made it up as I went along for DD1, and found new tricks practising on the other three. The 'how to talk' books are great, even the kids like to read them.