Please can anyone offer advice?

[EsioTrot]

Please can someone help? My 5 year old DS has always been strong willed/challenging/spirited/whatever you want to call it. He doesn't seem to have much respect for authority. He seems to view everyone as being the same level as him, and will (very convincingly) argue the toss over everything. He wants to be in charge all of the time and can be very bossy both with adults and peers. Unsurprisingly he's finding school difficult as he argues with his teacher and the TA.

We try to be absolutely consistent with discipline at home. We try to reward and praise good behaviour. We try to model polite and respectful behaviour. We do expect him to be polite and well mannered and are complimented on his manners. We've been using strategies from the book "1,2,3 Magic" which initially seemed to work. From Nov - Feb he seemed to be behaving acceptably at school and was much more co-operative and (dare I say it) pleasant at home.

School have him on a reward system where he has to get three animal stickers on his chart each day in order to get out for his last playtime (he still gets first play and lunch as he needs to let off steam and get time to socialise). At the end of the day if he gets his animal stickers he gets a smiley star on our chart at home and a treat at home too (feed the ducks, go to park, favourite programme on TV or similar).

It's not working. He's arguing and demanding excess amounts of attention from his teacher at school (despite her telling me that he is the brightest in the class). He often tells her he can't do a piece of work without even trying then will have a tantrum if she doesn't help him, or he'll say he is too tired to do it. He's being more grumpy, stroppy and stubborn at home than he was a few months ago.

He has a fantastic sense of humour, is loving and affectionate towards DH, his little sister and myself. He is very bright and can be such lovely company.

I am so fed up of being called over to speak to the teacher at the end of each school day. I am fed up of constantly having to discipline him at home. I am fed up of feeling angry and frustrated with him. I just want to be able to enjoy spending time with my little boy. I love him so very much and really just want him to be a healthy, happy, well adjusted person. My job as his mum is to help him reach that point but I feel like I'm failing!

If anyone has managed to read to the end of this and has any advice I would really appreciate it. Thank you.

I recommend reading the book "Playful PArenting" by Alfie Cohn.

This book will show you how to play with your son so that he can experience having the control that he craves in a safe way in play. Then be sure to play with him every day even if only for a short time. Anything from the day that is bothering him will come over to you through this playtime where just asking him is a pointless exercise!

Don't be overly controlling with him at home - wherever he can safely make decisions for himself, let him.

Be firm and clear and consistent when you need to make the decisions and get dh to be on the same page with you on this. If he doesn't like your decisions you can be understanding of his feelings about this without changing your mind.

Thank you so much for your reply FattyArbuckel. I'll have a look at that book, I like the idea of being a more playful parent...i spend far too much time worrying that I'm a miserable, rubbish parent!

its my fave parenting book ever - has brought me closer to my child and I am much more understanding of and properly aware of her point of view than I used to be.

It explains why children like the games that they do and how to play with them in a way that is really enjoyable and therapeutic for them. It also shows you that "talk" is the language of adults and "play" is the language of children. You need to be a good communicator in the language of play to be able to communicate easily with and "unlock" what is going on for your children. This book really opened my eyes and has made me a better parent with no doubt. I hope you enjoy it!

I'm about to order it from Amazon but the only book I could find with that title was by Lawrence Cohen not Alfie Kohn, is this the right one?

can you let me know how much you find it in amazon, as i find it in ebay 8.01 and free postage, just to know is it good price, as i may need it for my child too.

It's reduced to £5.98 firstsupermum and you can get free supersaver delivery.

thanks a lot, i will try this, i need to read it is well, as i find it hard sometime with my 24months boy.

yes lawrence cohen is right !!!

This was just the post that I needed to read - am going to get the book too!

As a teacher I think the school may need to vary their reward system. He could be allowed some special play with a child of his choice or computor time etc and a home liason book where he and the teacher fill it out at the end of each lesson or day and she asks him how he feels he has behaved and what he thinks he did well or would change, it makes him feel that he is being taken seriously. This takes effort from the teacher but I have done this and you only need to do it for a short time to take effect. He does need to understand though that he is not allowed to choose which lessons he puts effort into - if he is bright maybe he is not being challenged enough in a fun way?
It will change so don't panic. Try to leave school at school and enjoy your time at home A home diary of best thing, ok thing and thing i would not do again that you fill in together helps you see if there is a pattern to behaviour but do it at weekends too so it is not school related and you can do one too, show them mummies have off days too x

candr thank you for such a thoughtful and informative post. I think the idea of us both completing a home diary together is wonderful and will be hugely beneficial. It's also very useful having a few more ideas and strategies to discuss with his teacher. Finally, thank you for the reassurance, it's sometimes hard to keep perspective. I end up following a runaway train of thought, something along the lines of him being in trouble at school so refusing to engage with it and ending up with no qualifications I think I may need to seek help relax a bit!

Leish- I hope all works out well for you and your child.

For some kids role playing or using puppets is a good way to revisit siuations that went badly and explore what you could have done differently. Either the parent or the puppet plays the role of the child who got into trouble and the child then has to put themselves in the role of the teacher/ other student/ whatever to see (1) things from their perspective and (2) offer their advice to the child.

My dd loved this method although I am not sure that all kids would engage with it to an equal extent.

That sounds like a good idea Fatty (feels wrong calling you that ). We could maybe do some teacher pupil role play.

I downloaded the kindle version of playful parenting and am half way through it. I really like the ethos and have tried to put some of his ideas into practise today. We have had a lovely day and it's great to feel like I'm doing something positive. My DH and I were both commenting on how much better we feel when we do apply a more positive and playful approach. It can be hard not to revert to the style of parenting we were both brought up with, which was more punitive. That said. we've always been quite definite about no smacking or personal attacks and have always tried to show DS that it's certain behaviours we don't like, not him.

Thank you so much for the recommendation, you've made a small boy and his parents feel so much better already.

Could any pedants please excuse the grammatical errors, i am typing on an iPhone and really should preview post before posting!

Esio I am really really happy that you like the book!
And please do call me Fatty, I chose the name!

My other tips are the housekeeping ones that sound so obvious yet aren't always easy to achieve: regular bedtime, enough sleep, no tv within 2 hours of bedtime, plenty of outdoor exercise every day, good diet, regular healthy snacks etc. Tiredness and hunger make Everyone behave worse after all!

You're so right about the housekeeping stuff Fatty. I do all of he above and definitely notice a deterioration in behaviour when he's hungry or overtired.

Today was a "bad" day at school. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it, he was so well behaved yesterday. I do find it really disheartening.

Am still plugging away at the book and enjoying it. If you don't mind me asking how old is your DD and what led you to "Playful Parenting"?

Hi Esio! To answer your question, my dd is 11 now and I can't remember anymore what led me to PP - I have had the book a few years now and it may well have been mumsnet that led me to it!

Five is so young, and school is so hard, particularly since they have utterly inadequate amounts of physical activity in my view. I really feel for your ds and wonder if he is just too young for all that education stuff. I guess that even on a "bad" day, the reality is that quite possibly for even 90% of the day his behaviour may actually be good?

I think giving him some 1 on 1 "playtime" as the book suggests will improve his behaviour in the long term. I wonder if it is really tough on you if the teacher keeps giving you negative feedback? It should be lovely to "get your child back" at the end of the school day but for lots of reasons it often doesn't feel that way and I think a bit of playtime, even 10 mins, can get help get you both back on track for the rest of the day!

How is playtime going?

Thanks for replying Fatty.

In general playtime has been going really well. Amongst other things we've been doing lots of a game suggested in PP where I hold him tight and tell him he'll never escape then he wriggles free. We make it funny by me not noticing he's escaped for a while and I keep going on about how he'll never get free, then I notice and pretend to be really shocked. He absolutely loves that and asks for it over and over again. We've been wrestling too, letting him overpower me then tickle me.

Today didn't go well. We had arranged to see friends this afternoon. He played really well but we didn't get time to ourselves. The time we did have we were both tetchy and I was grumpy and short tempered. If I'm totally honest I'm exhausted today, DD been up since 4.30am and you're right, I do find all of the school stuff affects me really negatively. I'm always so pleased
to get him back and I really do love spending time with him. I think I need to get over the fact that I'm too socially compliant and care too much about what other people think. I'm also really worried that I am causing this behaviour somehow, through something I'm doing or not doing.

So, long story short I feel like a crap mum today. I'm going to do my best to be better tomorrow and I'm definitely going to do some school role play. I've noticed that although he does loads of imaginative play I have never seen him play schools. He plays every other scenario which features prominently in his life. I can't believe I hadn't noticed that before!

Sorry for the moan, i hope your day was better. :)

Crap mum?!!! No Way!!! Stop feeling like that! You said that your ds played really well with your friends. That is a massive success story of the day for any 5 year old. I'm glad your ds likes playtime too! So he is getting some control over you for a change!

If you are tired from being up at 4.30am I would say give yourself a break! Nobody is on top of their game like that - its a try to get through it as best you can kind of day, surely?

You are trying some new ideas out ie playful parenting and role plays - give them a while to see if they suit you and ds. My prediction is that things will all move forward in a very positive way, but not quite overnight. And if you think it doesn't help you then you can try out another idea.

I don't know if you are able to do this as you have dd as well, but helping out in class can be really helpful at this age - you get the chance to see what happens at school, build relationships with teacher and TA and it will also boost your ds's confidence.

Ideally, you and the teacher need to work together to improve behaviour in school so she needs to communicate to you very clearly what the behaviour is that she would like to change. Both of you could swap ideas. It shouldn't feel as though you are being told off.

Everyone has different problems as a parent - some are more obvious to other parents than others. All the parents whose children don't get told off in class have problems with their kids too. My dd has never had behaviour issues at school but had lots out of school associated with being dyslexic. She held it together in school because she daren't express her feelings for fear of losing her friends. She also has had massive problems with healthy eating that I feel I should have dealt with sooner and better. But things are good now and I was trying to sort these problems out at the time as best I could. Other parents would just have seen a child who behaved nicely at school and had a large group of friends. Some parents don't have the resources to or don't make the effort to work through their problems and are not open to change. Your dc really are lucky indeed.

Hope you have had a bit more sleep and have a good day

I have a day off home alone today (hurrah!) - I feel as though I really need to recharge so ideally I need the sun to come out but it doesn't look promising! Off to make myself some real coffee - love it!

I wonder if your son is maybe bored at school. If he is the brightest in the class, maybe he is not being stretched enough? Gifted and talented children often present as being difficult and disruptive because the school environment is not meeting their needs.
I agree that the reward system needs to be varied, maybe he could choose his own reward. I am not sure that keeping him in at playtime is the best thing to do.
Oh, and you sound like a great mum, keep up the good work.

The author of the book recommended, Alfie Cohn, is very anti any reward system. He feels that if a child thinks they get rewarded for 'good' behaviour, it does not instill any long term difference in their behaviour. His ethos is that a child needs to understand that positive behavior should come naturally and not part of a 'bargaining deal', so to speak. I agree with him actually, but in my world I still bank on the promise of a new DS game if my ds has a successful term at school - and it works!

Coogar, I agree that rewards don't really work. I prsactice unconditional positive regard which means that I will love/like/value my children (both at home and at work) whatever they do.
The more negative you are to a child, the more bad behaviour you get. it's the self-fulfilling prophecy. The more attention you give to a child for being disruptive/etc the more the behaviour continues.

I don't really use reward and punishment as motivators and neither seem to work particularly well for my dd. She is a well behaved child.

It feels really odd to me not to use this stuff as most of us were brought up with it and it still seems to be the "normal" approach. My parents disapprove of my parenting and don't hesitate to tell me. I am sure that I am far better at parenting than they were but it can be hard to have confidence in using a method that is out of step with other people - even when you see the good results every day with your own eyes.

Hi! Thanks for the lovely messages I had a quick skim read when I logged on earlier, I didn't have time to post but thank you so much, it gave me a huge lift and definitely spurred me on to make sure I was on top form for DS this afternoon.

We've had a much nicer day today. I had resolved to make this afternoon lovely for DS whether he had a "good" or "bad" day at school. As it turned out he had a good day and came bounding out of school into the sunshine with a huge grin :)

We've done lots of playing today but he really wasn't interested in any school role play. I didn't want to push it so we bounded around outside then had some snuggly time and some stories.

Fatty Firstly thank you for being so encouraging and lovely. I really appreciate you taking the time to post and the advice you offer. I hope you had a lovely home alone day and the coffee was good. We had sunshine and I hope some of it got to you and re-charged your batteries - I find sunlight makes a massive difference to how energized and optimistic I feel.

I really like your idea of helping in DS's class. It is tricky as DD is only 1 but I wonder if I can maybe get her looked after for a couple of hours every now and again. I think I'll speak to the teacher and see what she thinks.

purepurple I do keep coming back to the idea that DS may be bored at school. His teacher (who I should point out is lovely and really seems to want to find a way forward too) had also wondered about this. She has been trying to stretch him a bit more but hasn't found it has made a difference yet. Maybe he's still not being stretched enough. I don't know how much of an indication it is but he finds the reading books he comes home with very easy. I have a meeting with the school next week and I will raise this possibility again. I definitely agree that the more negative you are to a child the more bad behaviour you get and I try really really hard to show DS that I love him unconditionally. I hope the message gets through.

coogar I had read a bit of Alfie Kohn years ago and I agree with the principle of not using reward and punishment, it becomes difficult when the school have established this set up. I want to do the right thing for DS whilst working with the school if possible. I'm pleased the DS game works...might have to invest in a DS for DS .

Thanks again everyone, as I said before it's been a massive help reading your posts.