7 week old baby does not sleep during the day

[PatronSaintOfDucks]

Hello everyone. This is my first thread. I am sure there were similar topics before, but I would like to exchange ideas with people who are in a similar situation to mine, and possibly help each other.

I have a 7 week old ds. He is utterly angelic when he sleeps well. The problem is that although he sleep reasonably well during the night, daytime napping is hell. As a newborn he started off with being able to drop off pretty much anywhere any time. By four weeks this ability was gone. Now I am only really able to get him to sleep either in a moving pram or in a sling, with me moving, and then often only for 30-40 min max. And he usually only falls asleep after at least some and often protracted screaming. I hate to hear him scream and feel like a child abuser.

I've been trying to watch for his "sleepy signs" and put him either in the pram or sling early. This sometimes works with the sling but never with the pram. It is also often hard to know when he is sleepy as he is a very slow eater (a feed can easily take 40 minutes), his "activity" window can be very narrow and he is prone to dozing on the breast.

He also will not sleep on me. He used to fall asleep on the breastfeeding cushion after a feed, but if he does it now, he sleeps for 2 minutes max.

He also does not seem to ever go into deep sleep during the day, but always REM. He always fidgets and I can see his eyes moving under eyelids.

I feel terrible as I have to enforce daytime sleep through his screams. But I feel like I do not have a choice as if he does not sleep, he starts hanging on my breast for literally hours, fidgeting and pulling, dozing but never properly asleep.

For the past four days I've been trying to do a little routine for the first nap. He gets up around 7, and I time his first nap at around 8:30 am when he shows signs of tiredness. I take him upstairs to bed (we co-sleep), sign him a song, feed him, swaddle him (he is swaddled in the night), and then stroke/shushpat/hum/feed him to sleep. I do not have a blackout blind, however, so it's light. Today we managed about 1.5 hour nap, but he fidgeted for the whole time and I had to pat him and hum to him for pretty much the whole time to keep him asleep.

Is there anything else I can do at all? I especially hate to make him cry. It breaks my heart. The HV is telling me to "just put him down when happy and walk away", but she does not tell me what to do when he starts crying.

oh god what a complete nightmare. I feel for you.
Do you swaddle during the day too? Have you got a baby bouncer (like one of those padded chairs with adjustable rake on rockers, not the sling ones). If you swaddle, put him in the chair, do a bit of gentle rocking with your big toe in a darkish room while you have a cup of tea will he drop off?

Is he a sucky baby? Might he want a dummy while he drops off? (you can remove it gently when he is asleep if you like)

I think constantly patting and humming is a bit of a disaster although I understand why you do it. He needs to be able to settle himself back down if he starts to rise a bit from sleep, not need constant patting.

I would try first off a firm swaddle, nap in a comfy chair with a bit of a rock and a dummy. And I would stop rocking after a minute or two when he is sleeping. Others will have better ideas!

ps congrats on your boy

I have had 3. By 4 months all of mine were in a good napping routine of 3 naps between 7am-ish and 7pm-ish (actually my 3rd was more like bet 8 and 8 but that just worked better for us).

BUT all 3 struggled to learn to nap and all at this stage liked to wake after 30-40 mins. It does get better. You're doing all the right things.

Personally I wouldn't beat yourself up about rocking/patting/whatever them to sleep at this stage. This does not mean you'll be doing this when they're 4! What I do is as soon as they're asleep (on my shoulder/in sling/whatever) I put them down in a quiet space and so they get used to sleeping on their own. Sometimes if ignored the 40min wake up thing is just a mid sleep thing and they may resettle. One of ours ( I think my first) was RUBBISH at consistently sleeping for a long spell in the day until he went from 2 40 min naps to one 2.5 hour nap at around a year.

Hang in there, you're going great!

Freshmint, thanks a lot for the idea about the rocking chair. I do have. Will definitely try. As for the dummy - I've been trying to convince him to take one for the past three days, also tried different ones. He is adamant he wants the boob. He even tries to suck the dummy in the same way he sucks the breast. (he takes bottles, however, so it is strange).

Tassisssss, thanks for giving me hope! I am hoping that he will get better with age.

I did have a bit of success today. This morning I managed to put him down for a nap at 8:30 am, in a swaddle. Although I fed him to sleep (I know, a cardinal sin), he went out like a light, and stayed down for 1.5 hours, with no fidgeting or sushing/patting/humming necessary. This was the fifth time I tried this morning nap. I am hoping this means he is "getting" it.

I also managed two naps in a sling, 40 min and 1 hour. First was a walk and second - housework.

I am feeding him to sleep (unless he is in a sling). But I figure it's better than him screaming his head off while I shush until blue in the face. If it turns out to be a problem in the future, I'll deal with it then.

Will try "putting down when happy" over the weekend. Perhaps I can start practicing this for the second nap of the day. Unfortunately, I tend to be out in the middle of the day.

xxxxx

oh that is brilliant re morning nap! hurrah hurrah.

they do have to learn how to do it you know, and he is only little. It will improve as tassissss says. I think you are doing brilliantly. Nothing wrong with feeding him to sleep if it works and if he isn't a massively windy baby who will wake up with a huge burp inside 20 mins later.

What you want is a baby who has nice long naps, for your sanity and his - doesn't matter how you get there!
x

Thanks again, Freshmint. An 1.5 hour nap achieved this morning again, although the last half had to be managed with white noise. He had real trouble getting over the 40-minute barrier. Thankfully, he is not windy. But perhaps if he was, we would not have fallen into feeding to sleep thing.

xxx

It was about that age when they start to be able to see further that our baby started needing pretty much pitch dark to sleep. The sling worked well in that respect as he could nestle into me. Currently working on getting him to take naps in his cot but so wish I had started on that sooner (he is four months now).

oooh good
are you beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel?

just keep at it and very soon he will expect a long nap in the morning and get into it.

Some babies like a bit of background noise - hearing a radio a few rooms away or something...

well done!

Hi Freshmint! Yes, there is definitely a light. I am slowly discovering that babies, despite all appearances, are actually sort of human and one can reason with them, although in a roundabout way. I will definitely keep at it, build up that expectation of a nap. Otherwise today was a bit screwed up as we went to visit friends during the day and afternoon naps went to the dogs. We've introduced ds to the car only recently and he is so far very indignant.

I am also trying to reduce the amount of background noise ds needs. So far he loves hairdryer virtually in his ear, but hopefully with time we will build it down to "radio a few rooms away" :) I keep wondering why they do not manufacture tiny i-pods for babies with tiny headphones where they can listen to fun recordings of hoovers, washing machines and other musical delicacies.

Zayla, that's an interesting point. It did not occur to me that dark would stop they from staring around, although this is rather obvious (brain has gone to mush). I also have to confess that ds does not even have a cot yet. I figured he would first sleep in the basket and I would put the cot together later. But have not had a chance yet to take it out of its box. Working on it though. So far, we co-sleep, which made things massively easier in the early days when he breastfed multiple times a night. Les us know how you get on. What techniques are you using?

You sound much chirpier which is good!
Just also wanted to warn you that just when you think you've got them taped, they change. It is one of those universal truths which no-one every told me which I was indignant about when with my first (I have 4) I felt I was going back to square one every two weeks...!

Don't worry so much about a cot at the moment, basket is fine. Although I found that it was good to put the basket IN the cot, so when they finally move from basket to cot it isn't such a godawful shock for them because it smells right and the view's the same...!

Yes, I do feel better today. I probably do not have much to complain about. My ds is honestly not so bad compared to the situations may people are having. But on days when he screams from tiredness and would not go to sleep (esp. the "screaming pram" episodes) I do sometimes feel frustrated and paranoid that I am damaging him by making him cry so much. But then I think "babies cry all the time" and it is not like I am leaving him to cry alone. I am generally confused.

Sorry, btw, I was not totally clear about the basket. I started off trying to put him there, but we invariably ended up asleep in bed together as he would feed quite often during the night in the first days and I would fall asleep with him latched on. So now he is established in my bed. I am quite comfortable with him there, but would like dh back and so now thinking about strategies to move ds either into a basket or the cot. Probably the cot. I will probably start with the cot right next to the bed, with one side taken off.

Our morning nap seems to be rather well established now. Am thinking about the rest of the day now and really not sure what to do. While the morning nap emerged naturally as he clearly got sleepy about 1.5 hrs after waking, the other "sleepy times" are not so easily detected. For instance, after the morning nap he can be really dozy on the breast and then not yawn for ages and then get crabby really suddenly. There is not particular schedule. Perhaps he is too young to develop a schedule. I am also not sure whether to swaddle him for his other naps. It is ok for a baby to spend so much time in a swaddle? And how do I combine his naps with my desire (or rather need) to get out of the house once a day?

I'll try not to obsess about this too much. Perhaps something will emerge naturally. Maybe I should rather be concentrating on teaching ds to fall asleep without boob in mouth for his established sleeps.

And yes, I imagine he will change the moment I think I sussed it out.

Now I used to have a theory about babies that young - what was it- (racks brains) - I think it was that if they had been awake for 3 hours they needed a little nap?
Maybe that was for slightly younger ones. Yes, probably.
They end up at about your age or a bit older having one big nap and one less big nap a day - often the big one in the morning and the smaller after lunch, and then it reverses and you drop the morning.

It think that's how it worked with mine. It is a little bit young for a schedule but you can encourage him in that direction by putting him down then. And at that age "after lunch" can be around midday

I'd swaddle for all naps, its fine. You could have the afternoon nap in the pram while you are out and about?

If you are going to start to put him in a cot then I'd do it for naps.If he has never slept there yet you could put a worn tshirt of yours like a bottom sheet over his bottom sheet and he might prefer that till he gets used to it...

That's all my top tips. I'm sure others will have better ones!
I must say babies are bloody hard work, with the benefit of hindsight. But they are great fun from about three onwards

I found it helped a lot to figure out his 'natural' awake times. If I get the timing right it's so so much easier to get him to sleep. I also hold his hands down on his tummy while he sleeps and play white noise. I'm hoping he won't need these forever! I am lying next to him (his cot is up against our bed with one side down) as I type this in fact! I have also accepred that there might be a couple of minutes if crying before he sleeps. I don't do anything while he cries other than hold his arms down and have the white noise on.

We coslept until three months bur my husband now has him in the moss basket in our spare room until he can't resettle him easily at which point I feed him and take him into bed with me. This seems to be working quite well as he is now sleeping much longer.

Ladies, thanks again for the advice.

Last night's sleep has gone to the dogs as I moved ds to the other side of the bed in anticipation of the cot being on that side. He apparently minded as he woke up loads. He was up before 6 am. But it meant that I was able to put him down for 2.5 hrs later and get some kip myself. He also had another swaddled nap in bed later on, for about an hour. And then an hour's worth of somewhat wiggly sleep in a sling.

I try to have the afternoon nap either in the pram or the sling, so I can get out of the house and get some air and exercise. He does not take particularly well to either, however. He can have extended screaming sessions in both before going to sleep and if he wakes up, it's usually impossible to settle him again. He must be the only baby on the planet who does not really like the sling. So far I've been putting him in a wrap sling, but I tried a Bjorn too and he likes this one even less. Although, I have to say, that putting him in a sling while still awake and happy works better. So I should be watching him and timing things better. Pram seems to work better when he is utterly knackered - he sleeps for longer then.

Zayla, you are an acrobat to type in bed! Have you considered a thing called "summer swaddlepod" (they are on amazon)? It's kind of a zip-up caterpillar shaped thing that creates a loose swaddle. It will keep a baby from trying to gouge his/her own eyes out, but the baby will still be able to somewhat move his/her arms. It's an alternative to tight swaddle.

xxxx

I've tried various special swaddle blankets but not that one - maybe a zip will work better than Velcro. Will have to check he is not too big for it though.

With our wrap sling I find I can tell when he is ready to sleep because I try covering his eyes with the material and his head doesn't pop out! Once at that stage I can usually nestle him into me. I also sssh him and pat his bottom.

Not such a good day. He only had a 40 minute nap in the morning as I had to take him to the breastfeeding clinic for a consultation as a certain time. We also have an issue with feeding (that is potentially connected with sleep). Ds has extremely long feeding sessions, easily over an hour and would go on for hours at a time if I could stand it (sometimes I do). Then only 30 minute nap after we got home. The lots of erratic feeding in the afternoon. In the afternoons, he often feeds so erratically that when he gets cross, I am never sure whether it is because he is still hungry or because he is tired. It is probably both. After I had enough of nipple assault, I tried a walk in the pram with him, but had to abort it as he just would not settle. I walked for about 15 minutes, picking him up, shusshing, humming, patting, hoping he would settle down, putting him down again, several times, but to no avail. Now he is upstairs, sleeping (but for how long?) in a swaddle with the hairdryer on.

And he still very unfortunately hates the wrap sling. I had him in it in the taxi o the way to the breastfeeding clinic. He screamed for ages in it until I took him out. I am not really sure what the difference is to him between me holding him in my arms or holding him in my arms in a sling.

I wish I could read him better. But I think my fundamental problem is that very often I do not know whether he is hungry or whether he is tired, and he feeds so ineffectively that I am never sure whether he had enough (although latch, position, etc, is fine). :(

My DS at 7 weeks couldn't go more than 1.5 hrs without some shut eye; at 12 weeks, it is still pretty much 1.5 hrs, sometimes (once a day, maybe) 2 hrs. I always put him down at that time whether he looks sleepy or not because he drifts off happily when not crying but is harder to settle if he gets to crying. We do best on 3 naps - a 45 min (sometimes 1.5 hours) in the morning, another 1 1/2 - 2 hours mid morning and another 2 hours in the afternoon. Sometimes, if he hasn't had long naps in the day, we can do a catnap around 5.30 ish for 30mins-45mins which seems to help rather than hinder him settling at 6.30 - 7. He will take a boob if he's tired, but that's because he sometimes confuses a tiredness for hungry-ness. When I didn't know this, he seemed to feed unsatisfactorily all day (constant snacking makes for a poor appetite overall) and very fussy on the boob (probably cos he was constantly overtired).

I seem to remember him being extremely fussy at eating at that age too - I was never convinced he was full, because he fussed on and off for an hour or more until we both gave up rather than distress him. Through no specific intervention it got better and better - the only thing I did was act confidently with him. I put him down confidently, stopped feeding him confidently, worked towards a routine decisively, even though I felt VERY unconfident and inwardly worried I was starving/ otherwise abusing him. I thought as long as he seems generally happy - and your DS is in your OP - we're doing alright. I remember everyone saying that BFing got more efficient at six weeks, and worrying cos we were still on for an hour or more at six weeks, but at around 8 weeks, it started to get better and now he can drain a boob in 10 minutes. So it might just get better and better for you, too.

I said all this just to suggest that it may help your DS if you decided he was tired for him on the basis that he's teeny tiny and it's likely and act convincingly enough for him to relax and go along with it. It may help the feeding thing too, by helping him to build to meals rather than snacks. Of course, your DS is likely very different from mine, but it may be worth a try... DEFINITELY persist with the dummy; we've found it so helpful to get over the 45minute stirring barrier

Sparklyboots, thanks loads! What you say feel right. You describe the behaviour of my ds rather precisely. In the afternoons, the feeds are really prolonged, he fusses a lot and generally acts in a frustrated manner and feeds ineffectively. I shall try to be more confident in just deciding that he is tired and putting him down. Perhaps I should just put him down after he's been awake for 1.5 hours irrespective of how he is acting, whether is he yawning or not or whether he wants to go back on the breast. The problem is often that he doses at the breast, but perhaps I should just not count it as sleeping. I'll also persist with the dummy. Who knows, he might like it next week.

Puppy poo! Really trying to keep to a schedule, but having a typical day so far:

Up at 7 am. Screaming for food. Fed for about an hour, not too badly in terms of effectiveness. I switched breasts four times. Then half hour of happiness - smiles and gurgles. At 8:30 took him back upstairs to bed (in all honesty, I could have probably done it 15 minutes earlier as he started yawning earlier). Swaddled him. He was still awake and happy. Decided to leave him like this (but stayed in bed with him). In a couple of minutes he started first grizzling and then crying for boob. Gave him boob. He fell asleep rather promptly. Withdrew boob. He woke up in 2 min, but I managed to hum him back to sleep without boob! Stayed asleep with no white noise for 45 min, then started fidgeting and waking up, and I could only keep him asleep further with white noise.

Woke up at 10. Spent first 10-15 min happy and not demanding boob, which is very unusual. Had a poo. Smiled a lot. Put him on the breast at around 10:15. He fed for about 35 min, then came off reasonably happy. Talked to granny on skype for about 10-15 min. Then he started to get grizzly so I though he was still hungry and put him back on the breast. Then half an hour of feeding, getting increasingly fidgety and ineffective. At 11:30 I decided that he must be tired and it's time to have a walk and nap in the pram.

He came off the breast himself. The moment I put him down to get some clothes on to go out, he started yelling. Picked him up, calmed him down. Put him in the pram - crying. Went out, hoping he will settle, but gave up after 10 min walking the streets and stopping every 50 yards to pick him up and calm him (I am sure the whole village by now knows me as a woman who tortures her child). Went back home, put him on a bed and switched the hairdryer on. Instant calm and smiles while I swaddled him. Fed him to sleep in about 10 min. Now sleeping but being fidgety and white noise is on (and he always does thing little sucking movements with his jaw in his sleep - is this normal?).

Why does this child hate the pram so much? He used to be much better in it. The sling is marginally better, but he can never get past the 40 min barrier in it. I feel like I am stuck in the house as he will not have either the pram, sling or car seat. I am wondering if this is because I had an injury and could not really walk/drive for the first three weeks after he was born and so he did not get a chance to get used to any of these things from birth.

I know I probably should be putting him in the pram while he is still happy, but it seems that his hungry/tired stages overlap and I hardly have the time to take him off the breast before he gets grizzly from tiredness. I would be questioning my milk supply if he was not putting on an average of an once a day.

Grrrr. Sorry to ramble, but this is sort of a venting/reflecting diary for me.

Will attempt to figure out the acrobatics of feeding in a sling this afternoon. Will report. Tried it a couple of days ago, but did not get it.

Just a quick point, my friend had a son who only slept for 30-40 min at a time and she struggled along with this till taking him to a homeopath at 7 months who realised he had a wheat intolerance. Maybe worth taking yr DS to an osteopath to see if his digestive system seems ok or try cutting dairy for a week, and seeing if things improve. If no change, perhaps try cutting wheat for a week. Just in case it's tummy discomfort that is keeping him awake. Also if he is having reflux issues, then that could be why he doesn't like lying down. I had it drummed into me by a maternity nurse that babies need sleep to grow and "recover" from being awake so I'd really try to make sure yr DS is totally comfortable when he's going down for a nap and make sure he's not struggling with any physical discomfort that's stopping him from sleeping. HTH

Snap re: the pram, my DS loathes his bloody Bugaboo, thinking of kicking it out for a snap and run McClaren or similar, when he's selfsupporting. He does like the Baby Bjorn and invariably sleeps in it, but he does cry gettg in it and it takes a minute or two of walking about before he remembers it's actually lovely.

Have you read Baby Whisperer? I read it before he arrived and though I'm not 100% on what she says, I did find it really useful. She talks a lot about feeding and sleeping routines. I am not so strict about the sleeping thing (dark, quiet rooms only) because I'd like him to be a bit more flexible, but she does speak sense about 'training' your baby, maybe you'd find it supportive while you are trying to get napping established?

An once a day is a lot, v impressed. We have done erratic weight gain but he is definately piling it on, will have to give up the Baby Bjorn soon...

Evening ladies (and gents if there are any). Fun continues in duckland. Ds woke up twice in the night to feed. Last time at 4:30. I fed him lying down and promptly fell asleep. Woke up at 5:30 to find out that my nipple is still in ds's mouth and he is happily using me as a dummy. Took the nipple out, ds took slight exception to it and messed about until I gave up at 6:30 and got out of bed.

Nap from 8-ish to 9:30-ish. Well-ish, but had to feed to sleep and use hairdryer for the second part. He is seriously getting addicted to the frigging hairdryer.

Then had a 6-8-week checkup at doctor's at 11. Took him there in the sling. He fell asleep on the way back and I decided to take a walk to let him sleep. Went to join the local library, about 15-20 min walk away. Ds woke up the moment I started filling out the forms. Abandoned operations for a bit, walked again till he fell asleep, when back to the library and filled out forms while walking about. Got a book on baby sleep out (it turned out a bit disturbing because the author thinks it's no big tickle if babies vomit due to excessive crying). Walked about a bit more. Then ds woke up, after a total of probably 50 min sleep. Fed him on a bench.

Then stuck him back in the sling, where he promptly fell asleep again (amazing!). Seeing such luck, I decided to go have lunch with baby group mates. Ds slept through half the lunch when I was sitting down and not moving (VERY AMAZING!), but then woke up the moment my food arrived. But had about 40-50 min sleep.

This brings us into afternoon and into hell. Ds did not have a wink between about 1:40 and 8 pm, besides a small doze on the breast. Tried putting him down twice and feeding him to sleep, but the moment the nipple is out of his mouth, he wakes up. So I guess the whole feeding to sleep thing really has to be abandoned.

Putting him to bed for the night took an hour. Feeding to sleep did not work again, had to use the bloody hairdryer. Loads of crying and distress on both sides. Very frustrating. :(

Painfullyhonest - I am thinking about discomfort, but cannot really see anything. Ds minds lying down only when he is knackered and it's time to sleep. When he is slept, fed and happy he is completely cool with lying down. He also does not seem to show any signs of excessive wind as he does not pull knees up or go rigid. HOWEVER - feeding today was different. It seems to me he fed more actively. He also burped loads and regurgitated milk three times - something he never ever used to do. Maybe he is finally starting to feed more and getting more wind. All the more reason to deal with the feed-to-sleep issue.

Sparklyboots - bua-ga-ga! We also have a Bugaboo. It's totally loathsome. It is currently abandoned for a piece-of-fabric sling that cost 15 quid. Perhaps our babies are rebelling against brand consumerism. . . . I have got Baby Whisperer. I do find some bits helpful, esp. the stuff on tired signs. The routine is also sensible, if only I could get my baby to follow it. I am trying to put him down approximately every 1.5 hrs after waking, but it's very difficult as he often wakes up early. I also struggle to combine the BW routine and any kind of social life or even ability to simply walk out of the house. But nevertheless . . .

Congrats on your weight gain!

Wow, worst night ever since we got out of the hospital. After the episode in the evening, I decided to try being consistent with not feeding to sleep. Ds re-settled in 30 secs with a bit of firm cuddle and humming after 11 pm feed. The 2:30 feed was something else. He ate gulping nicely for 45 minutes. And then was up until 5:30 am. Just would not go to sleep without boob. Tried everything - humming, shusshing, a bit of patting, cuddling, laying-on-hands, the blasted hairdryer, walking and rocking, all to no avail. He was winging most of the time (thankfully, not much real crying). He also did about a million yawns, but his eyes stayed wide open, looking at something incredibly fascinating in the darkness. I could not believe he was up for 3 hours!!! Eventually he was getting massively fed up and I was beyond massively fed up and so decided to try the dummmy. Again. He did not take it before, but now took a few sucks and fell asleep.

And then he was up at 6:30, bright and smiling at me like nothing happened. Keeps smiling and gurgling now too, an hour later. But will try sticking him back into bed. I need some kip!

I am a bit desperate actually. What the hell am I doing wrong? Am I really destined for a strict routine where I will not be able to get out of the house?

Today's log from the trenches:

6:30 - up.
8:30-9:50 - nap 1. Took 30 min to settle, lots of fidgeting throughout the nap, needed lots of settling.
11:50 - 13:10 - nap 2, in sling outside walking. Settled quickly, little fidgeting.
15:00-15:30 - nap 3. Settled in about 15 min, woke up after 30 min, could not resettle.
16:30 - attempted nap 4. Settled fast, but woke up in 10 min, could not resettle.
17:30 - 18:00 - nap 5, in sling outside walking. Settled straight away.
18:45 - start of bedtime routine. Took 25 min to settle, asleep by 19:50.

Generally, there was little real crying, but a lot of whingeing. Ds makes these cutest little pitiful cries that you would sell the motherland for. But I was relentless. No boob.

Settling tools:

• humming (shushing and patting Ds is like trying to spank a rhinoceros into submission)
• downward strokes on forehead to close eyes
• hairdryer (big time, getting seriously dependent on it)
• dummy (ds does not take it, but just having it in his moth for a sec seems to calm him a bit)
• swaddle
• firm cuddles
• laying-on-hands

All of this is rather exhausting. I live in hope.

If it's any consolation which it's probably not, I have 6 children some of whom have napped well, one very well (no 5) and no 6 who never napped at all. He just didn't. Some do some don't. It doesn't make it easier if you have a non napper but I honestly think they are all different.