Help, I need help, sleep deprivation and night weaning

[SharkSkinThing]

I really need some advice about this. I've asked HV, NCT Milk group and random women in the street, but I'm seriously beginning to go bonkers with lack of sleep, and don't know what to do.

DS is 7 months old (EBF) and is waking at least three times a night to feed - but he is eating masses and masses in the day - one large jar of food, plus snacks, plus what seems to be a lake full of yogurt, plus bf.

I feel like I should be discouraging him from feeding at night because I genuinely don't think he needs it - when he wakes at 10.30pm DP goes to settle him but he screams and screams until I go and feed. He'll then wake again at 1.30 and again at 3am, before waking up for good, at around 5am.

I just need some straight advice. Should I totally close the door on bf at night - am I actually stopping him for having a good night's sleep?

Should I get DP to offer formula at 10.30pm until he takes it, even if it means him screaming for a few days? What do I do the rest of the night? Offer boob?

I never thought I'd day this, but I currently hate bf, and just want done with it.

Should I just accept that my baby is not a great sleeper and will get there in his won time?

Sorry for long post, I'm feeling very low and alone and totally unsupported by those who could help!!

Actually I thought the OP was asking about breastfeeding in the night, if people want to be breastfeeding several times a night at 7 months because they believe that their baby is hungry fine, but if not more solids may well be the answer.

Yes thanks, I'd really be interested in your references.

Oh FGS why are you so obsessed with references? If you want them you find them.

Personally I prefer to use some common sense, after all babies have been being born for many years now, before formula existed they were breastfed and then given solids. Under normal circumstances, if nature is saying that the breast milk is not enough alone anymore it is time for solids, why introduce formula? Unless of course it is because of returning to work or something. Many people now seem to be introducing formula when they say the baby is still waking in the night so to give them formula before bed, as I said why? Nature is probably saying it is time for more food alongside the breast milk.

What exactly are you trying to discuss?

No need to get shirty. You're making lots of claims and talking about "the latest" so I'm just asking you to back yourself up with facts. Otherwise it's just opinion. As milk is calorie-dense in relation to most solids it's interesting that you think giving solids is a good solution to poor weight gain. Giving more milk would seem logical in that situation.

I'm not trying to be mean - but when it comes to advising people on something as crucial as infant nutrition it's better to say nothing than to pass off opinion and hearsay as fact. Hence asking you to give evidence. :)

Oh please, if someone is going to base their decisions entirely on what people they don't know say then that is a worry. Giving views and opinions or citing research are all ways in which we gather information and then make decisions. If someone is really that concerned they should go to the Doctor or HV.

I haven't made lots of claims, I haven't said anything is fact, I have given my opinion, experience and yes that it has been recently publicised that new research has indicated that breastfed babies may need more solids sooner than formula. (As of course was the case before it was decided that weaning should be later at 6 months)

I didn't say that giving solids was an answer to poor weight gain. I said that at a certain age 'weaning age' I had experienced 2 DDs who had previously gained weight very well being EBF, then both experienced a sudden weight loss around 4 months, or actually DD1 just before then. I remember taking DD1 to the doctor when this happened on advice of HV who just said introduce formula. The doctor said current research says that you wait until 6 months to wean, so perhaps a little formula until then or wean sooner, but it was left to me as the parent to decide, after all not many years before the HV would have said yes it's time to wean at 4 months. When the same happened to DD2 a year later, the same doctor was quite happy for me to wean straightaway, I told him that that is what I had done with DD1 the year before.

Obviously I am not suggesting that I think that a baby who struggles to gain weight should be weaned at 2 months for example! If a breastfed baby at that age is not gaining weight then yes formula would probably be the only way to go. But in reality I think most healthy women are capable of breastfeeding sufficiently until weaning a healthy baby.

What about breastfeeding and nature? If breastmilk is no longer enough by 4 months+ then is it time for more solids as well?

If breastfeeding is truly successful then milk will be perfectly adequate at 1, 2, 3, 4 months and beyond. It's normal for the growth rate of a breastfed baby to slow down after the initial months and this rarely indicates a need for formula, solids or whatever.

In nature, babies would tend to eat what they could pick up themselves. Cavewomen didn't have access to baby rice but the human race survived.

Exactly....apart from of course there comes a time when bf is not enough and this can be at different times for different people. I was talking about quite significant weight loss not just slowing down.

Who mentioned baby rice?! Not something that existed in our house. Yes babies can very quickly if there is something to eat pick it up and eat it.

Tutto, Second - I'm inspired, and grateful for your replies - reading back through all of this I can now just rest easy that DS is normal, and that we are doing as a family is what's right for us.

Like you, Second, DS is a big boy - the same weight as your little one, and like you, Tutto, not the longest of nappers. We're down to two a day now, and I'm lucky if either lasts 30 mins. It's a killer, and makes for a very long day.

Evo - I'm not introducing formula at all in the hope of a good night's sleep - DS has never had formula, I'm not against it, I've just never seen the point when my boobs are right there and good to go! It was just to see if he would take it (he has it on cereal anyway), and it would mean DP could just shove some in the bottle and give me a bit more sleep. He's going to be going onto ff at 10 months anyway, so we figured a bit now and then to get used ti it wouldn't hurt. Though tbh, I don't think he'll go for it!

And oh dear. I really hadn't wanted to cause a debate between bf and ff, it was just about sleep deprivation, and having a really, really low day and feeling like every bugger in the world but me was getting more than 3 hours sleep in a row. I think I was just looking for some honest support and advice and to feel reassured that DS is totally normal, and to not worry too much about it all, as it will pass.

I know that there are stronger solutions out there, all of which I have no issue with, they're just not the right one's for my family. Sometimes all it takes to feel better about it all is someone 2 months ahead of you letting you know that it does, it really does, get a little bit easier!

DS is already wanting less bf in the day (he'll have 3 - 4 now), so I'm confident that he'll drop a night feed next..

Now, who wants a drink? It's my round.

Just to leap in - the latest news story wasn't new research, it was a review of existing stuff. The solids for BF babies before 6 months was to do with iron stores - formula has added iron so less of an issue for FF babies. And it was more of a "some babies might need solids before 6 months if BF because their iron stores might be depeleted" thing.

As for night weaning - well DS is 17 months and occasionally feeds once a night but it's sometimes because he has tummy problems - so he screams for me as he wants feeding doe comfort. Have a think about the solids you're giving - be careful of wind inducin stuff like green veg etc. Also make sure he's getting calorie rich stuff as he might be waking up genuinely hungry. PLUS there is a big growth spurt around 6/7 months - I remember DS all of a sudden growing after eating loads!!

Iggly...well yes ok it wasn't perhaps new research as the advice was to wean at 4 months previously anyway, but the idea was that having changed it to 6 months, it was then thought that perhaps this was not always best for bf babies. And yes I said that bf babies may need solids sooner than 6 months, not that all would, I have friends whose babies were fine solely breastfed for 6 months and others like myself whose weren't.

Yes I completely agree that perhaps more calorie rich foods would help if he is genuinely hungry.

Hi Shark
I've been having similar problems with my 8 month old DS re sleep and feeding since he was about 12 weeks old . A friend recommended me Hipp Goodnight milk, which has helped her 10mo sleep a lot longer and better. So if you're considering ff at night maybe try this one. I've never seen anyone mention it on here before so I don't know what the general consensus on it is - I've given it to DS late evening instead of BF for a few nights now, as I can't get him to eat any more than he already does in the daytime, and he does sleep a bit longer - sometimes as much as FIVE hours in a row!! But it might just be coincidence, not the formula. You never know how long a 'routine' is going to last do you?

Yes evo - not having a go - just wanted to make the point that it was about iron stores not BM being less filling than FM, which it isn't. FM just takes longer to digest. I think saying wean between 4-6 months when baby appears ready is sensible advice.

Anyone thought of the developmental milestone of "Separation anxiety"? My EBF LO is 25 weeks old and has been sleeping through the night (8+ hours) since she was 6 weeks old, but just this week has started not going to sleep at all till around 3am (then waking at her usual 6-7am time). She has maybe 2-3 hours nap in total during the day. I have been limiting her napping the last few days in an effort to get her to sleep better at night but no luck. She didn't seem particularly hungry when I offered breast in the night either, so I think it may all be due to the fact that she has suddenly realised that (a) Interesting stuff goes on elsewhere whilst she's in her cot, and (b) Mummy and Daddy are not with her when she's asleep in her cot but she loves them and misses them when they are not there... and this is why she will not settle at night. Could be wrong but isn't it around the 6-9 month period that all this type of awareness and the clingy-ness is at it's peak? Just a thought...

Spinal - great tip, thank you. We still haven't done the formula thing yet - DS's teething was so horrendous on Saturday night (5 times he was up..I could cry, still..), that BF was the only solution.

And then last night he woke at midnight (which is when my shift starts, as it were), and again at 4am. So I just fed. And then he woke at 5.30am. Again.

Sometimes if I wonder if there is any point in even going to bed. Five hours sounds like bliss right now.

SecondComing - god love ya, did you have a blast? I can't even remember what wine tastes like.

Fair point, Gourd, I'll add that to the pile of reasons!

My big issue is that he just won't sleep for more than 30 mins in his cot, which means I never get a chance to slide down the wall and just zone out myself. He'll go down fine, but just won't stay down - and he needs to nap longer, I know he does!

I'm sorry but I really don't think just keeping on bf in the night is helpful, I really think you need to stop. When you feed him in the night what happens do you then leave him again when he is still awake?

Hi Shark. Your DS sounds similar to mine. I was particularly shattered at 7 months I recall. We tried to cut down on BF at night by DH going in but it was a ruddy disaster and he woke up more frequently - for months! There was other stuff going on as well (teeth, illness, separation anxiety, which still comes and goes depending on what else is going on). I read the No Cry Sleep Solution, used some of the ideas and then did whatever I had to do to maximise sleep. Stopped night feeding at 10 months with no complaining. However, this did not magically lead to sleeping through. He did this for the first time at 14 months. My DS, as lovely as he is, is a bit of a shite sleeper. He's much better now (18 months old) and will sleep through about once a week unless he's ill (which he currently is...yawn!). Just do what feels right for you and your personal situation. I'm fairly convinced (and this comes from a professional life of advising on behavioural issues including sleep, as well as motherhood) that some kids sleep well and respond to training, and some don't so much.

Evo - I'm in two camps with you, I really am. So we're reducing the feeding as of last night, and we've had an interesting result.

DS woke at 10.30pm, so DP went in with formula in a bottle. DS seemed to take it fine - only a little, and we had half an hour of back and forth with a bit of settling, but by 11pm he'd gone back down again and slept until 3am. I fed and then he woke at 5am.

He seemed to have taken about 2 ounces. So. This is great progress for us - I don't need to go in at 11pm and feed, DP can do it. We'll worry about the 3am one in a week or two.

Another good thing - DS has gone down in his cot without the usual 5 min cuddle we have - he grizzled very gently for 10 - 15 mins and has gone to sleep. Might not be for long, but I don't care, it's a step forward - I never cuddled him to sleep before, but the fact I could just place him straight him is such a result. I'm hoping this will help him better at night now.

Carve - great advice, thank you. It really isn't that black and white, is it, sometimes, all babies are so different, and I am often so tired I could just die. Like your DS my DS is a cracker - such a happy little soul and no trouble at all in the day. I am convinced that the fact that we do respond to him at night (or have, ahem, we are getting tougher), is why he's so sunny and secure in the day.

Still. A long way to go yet...

evolucy7 - I really don't think that just stopping feeding in the night is a great solution, doesn't mean that baby will sleep through. Sorry not all babies can go through the night without something at this age. Weather you believe that or not is up to you. Plus you don't seem to understand the resent news story or that starting solids to early can have detrimental effect on health, that's why you should never wean before 17week's this have been quite clearly shown. Babies at 4months have a huge growth spurt and need more milk, some that have slept through will even start waking up again. This is a sign they need more milk not solids. You really think a cave woman would give a 4 month old baby food? In clutters where BF is still the norm it's quit common for babies not to be weaned onto solids until 9-12months. The only reason why weaning has been so early in this country is our history with artificial feeding and it being so rubbish (not modern formulas) for nutrition for young babies.

SharkSkinThing - Sorry It's taken me so long to get back to this tread. Glad to hear that you feel things are going a little better. Some babies will sleep a bit longer with formula then with BM as it takes longer for them to digest. I don't think it's uncommon for any baby to still be waking for milk at 7 months. Ask yourself this do you go 12hours without at least a drink? The answer is probably no so why do we expect such a small baby to do it (and I know some of them will but I think there the exception) most babies I know have at least been still having a dream feed at this age. I also know full FF babies who have been like this to; waking up several times a night that is.

I think the clue is in the nap's if he'll only do a short nap then wake up then he's probably a light sleeper to so is going to easily wake in the night wearth it's for milk or not. I know it's tiryring and hard work but he will grow out of it eventually. I think you'll find there are more babies still waking up at this age then you realise. I think a lot of people don't admit it, or their baby is having an 11pm feed the waking at 5.30am and they class that as all night.

After our experience with DD when I did all the classic things in trying to get her to sleep, none of which really worked by the way. It just made me more sleep deprived and stressed. This time we've just given in and are properly co-sleeping from the word go. I get far more sleep this way and am less stress DS will sleep through when he's ready with no pressure from me. He's 4months and waking between 10pm and 7am about twice I think, don't always even remember when he wake's and has occasionally done 8hours, which is already way better than his sister ever did.

This is a really good site to read. www.askdrsears.com/

Makes' you at least feel you?re not alone.

My DD is just 8 months and has only just calmed her night feeds down to a reasonable 6pm, 1.30am, 3.30am and then 5ish wake up. She eats well in the day and up until now has woken anywhere from 1-3 hourly for feeds (usually 2 hourly) - the breakthrough came when my DH put her to bed one night without a feed (she had a feed before I went to yoga - then a biiig dinner and water so i was happy she wasnt humgry). She cried a bit but DH patted her on the back and she slept until 3.45am!!!!

I woke her up as I was totally engorged - but my point is that i then realised she didnt need the feeds - she just wanted the company (she is a clingon/velcro baby)

I have since tried getting her to sleep a few times each day without a feed and i think this is helping

I did CC for 3 nights with my DS at 6 months as I was going mad working and getting up all night - he responded fine and slept through the night from then on (until now when he likes to jump into our bed at 2am - another issue!!)

anyway - thats my experience

good luck!

Mig...I did not say that he would miraculously sleep through if OP stopped bf at night.
I have not misunderstood the recent news story or have I said that anyone should be weaning before 4 months.

For a totally bf baby losing weight dramatically at 4 months it is not necessarily a sign that they need more milk, a woman's body should produce milk for their baby as required, if it is no longer enough at 4 months where do you propose the extra milk comes from? The doctor told me to introduce solids! This will not be true for everyone but if a baby has previously gained weight very well so has clearly had enough milk so far, but is then losing weight they may well need solids. Mothers and babies are different.

Anyway OPs baby is 7 months and OP has said that she doesn't actually think that he is hungry.

OP, having said that he would take formula, I would try giving water in the night.

As I have said lots of times, I would not have wanted to be up in the night several times at 7 months. It is perfectly possible not to be.

Totally in agreement, MigGril, that's a great reply, thank you, and I have had a strong suspicion for a long time now that many women do not tell the truth about their sleeping problems, so as to maintain some sort of competitive veneer.

There is a part of me that instinctively feels that DS still needs a feed (or two) at night, and I have no intention of denying him that. I didn't think for one second that ff would extend his sleep, only that it would finally give me a break and a chance to get some sleep myself, if DP can go and feed. He's on his third nap today - am wondering if I was pushing him towards two too soon.

Alohasoph - DS also goes down to nap without a feed. But that's also brilliant advice, thank you!

Up until now I haven't wanted to give DS formula - a personal choice, no disrespect to ff babies - but at 7 months and on 3 hearty meals a day, I see no reason why one night time feed will hurt. He's going to be going on to it at 9 months anyway when he weans off me.

Evo - I had a great chat with one of the counselors at my local Milk drop in earlier today ? she said that essentially all babies are just different, you have to go with what feels right. There is no ?should? or ?shouldn?t? be feeding at night at this age. The fact that he did take some formula makes me think that perhaps he is hungry after all ? he didn?t scream the place down for me. And have tried water - no dice.

So I guess as hard as it is for me to continue feeding at night, it?s still the decision I instinctively feel is right for my son. The world would be a dull place if we were all the same. In the great scheme of things this is a tiny amount of time in his life.

Tell you what ? when he does sleep, I will never take a full-night?s kip for granted again! :)

Mothers and babies are different - this is very true, but I also don't trust GP's to know much about BF either. Babies do need more at 4 months there is a huge growth spurt, but milk has far caleries then solids, is much better digested and contains all the nutrents a baby of this age needs. One of the reasions for changing the weaning age was the some babies will start to not gain weight well if solids are introduced at 4months, as resent research has shown babies can't digest food well at such a young age. it just anoye's me that so many people say introduce solids to help with sleep ect. when there is no research to support this, or formula feeding for that matter.

Sorry but it's post like yours that totaly made me feel like I was causing DD's bad sleeping. When in reality she was probably hungery until 13months and then still needed night time parenting untill much older. She was and still is a high needs child it's her personality, proven by DS who is such a chilled baby in comparision. This isn't as uncommane as you mite think either. I spent months chasing my tail trying all sorts to get her to sleep, when if I'd just accepted the situation we all would have been much less stressed even if a little sleep deprived. As linked in my pervious post read DrSears he's great on this topic.

I think you're doing the right thing Shark. Follow those instincts. It's always better to deny yourself a night's sleep than to deny a baby nourishment and until you can be sure he's not hungry anyway.

I'll quietly mention that until nearly 3 years old my DS would occasionally wake up for food - usually around a growth spurt - and after an oatcake or two would pass out again!

Yes MigGril this is where my thrill that my 2monther (now 5 months) was 'sleeping through' came from, as 11pm is my bedtime, so if she often didn't wake for a 2am feed then her 5 - 5.30 wake up was my 'natural' wake-up time anyway, courtesy of my super-charged 3 year old. So if i hadn't been woken, i called it sleeping through, especially as, after my DC1's constant wakings, i didn't even believe 6 hours was possible for a baby before DC2. So it certainly hasn't been meant competitively, more in surprise! And I would always say it's not every night, let alone not 8 hours (didn't know this was a definition).