more 11 year old boy problems - it's ruining our family :(

[dreamsofsea]

Sorry, very ong desperate post. Ds1 is 11. He used to be so good. So so good. Pleasant clever funny, friendly, a bit serious and sensitive.

In the last few months he has changed so much. He is so negative and spoilt and unpleasant to everyone and it is now really spoiling our family life. Now his standard way of talking to his brothers is an automatic rude, bitchy, condescending comment. Every time. It is depressing to be around them.

It seems to be infectious and very often all 3 automatically argue or disagree with each other just for nothing. Usually it's nonsense. "What's more powerful, the sun or a space rocket. The sun. No you're wrong, a sapce rocket is because...."

He cannot talk to his db with out being rude, sarcastic and unpleasant. eg this morning he tips all my tea bags on the work surface to take the box to school. I ask what he wants it for, he explains doing boxes, rectangle, cubes etc in maths. His db, ds2 exclaims in happy voice that's a coincidence, that's what he's doing too. Ds1 makes rude bitchy reply. No reason. Constant negativity and bickering.

Mornings are particularly bad for bitching and bickering. I am constantly repremanding them all and in the end usually have to have a talking ban just to stop them arguing. So every morning is miserable.

Ds1 got a letter home from school last week. Very serious warning from school. He's insolent, rude, cheeky, disruptive. (Unbelievable change since last year, which was totally the other end of the spectrum. He made it into grammar school and seems to have morphed into a smart arsed arrogant monster :( )

DH furious. He's on a 1 month computer and Ipod ban. Every now and then ds1 makes a sarcastic comment (none of his friends got punished for the same letter home from school), we've got no right to take his ipod off him.

It now feels like I am constantly fighting with him or punishing him. He is constantly fighting with his siblings. At w/e ds2 was away. For the first time in ages he played with ds3 loads, really really nicely. I even commented to dh as it was remarkable, and praised ds1 for behaving so well. I let him earn a half an hour go on computer as a reward. Later in week, ds3 mentions them playing. Ds1 replies he only played with him cos ds2 gone. ds3 crushed :( Nasty comment for no reason.

This morning ds2 looking for t-shirt. Dh finds ds1 physically attacking him. Dh extends the computer ban by 2 days. On leaving, ds2 says something to him , ds1 shouts 'shut your face' , dh extends the computer ban by another day.

Constant negativity, rudeness and punishments. A total change, like night and day in the last few months.

Home life is stressful and miserable. How do I turn this around? How do I stop the mean, bitchy, condescending comments and bickering?

I can see what you're saying Hatti but it's easier said than done.

I feel for you my DS(12) is so negative and sarcastic it's really hard not to rise to it.

The best advice I've had is to ignore what he says(when he's being like this not all the time) and concentrate on what he does.

So for me, this helps me see that he does put his clothes away, empties the dishwasher and make his packed lunch, I just have to ignore the muttering and whinging. His feelings are so strong that he just can't keep them in-so instead of just thinking hmmph I don't really want to do this, he shouts or whinges and tries to get out of it. Growing up is hard.

Boys this age seem to be totally clueless as to how their actions and what they say will effect other people. My son is constantly surprised he has upset me,especially when it is only after he has done half dozen small nasty things he just doesn't seem to understand that these things are cumulative.

He doesn't mean to be horrible he just completely fails to see anyone else's point of view.

Maybe he could find another hobby that can be done at home my DS like card tricks and spends a lot of time practicing in his room. Your DS might prefer chess or painting model soldiers(random).

I don't know, but I think it helps for them to have an interest that they can do whatever the weather on their own without being banned from it.It's also a good thing for us give him some positive attention when he shows us a trick.

Imagine if you had all the free time he has and no computer you'd be pretty bored too.
HTH

I am positive to / with him at every possible opportunity. Really. I encourage him to meet up with friends. This afternoon he is meeting up with a kid who lives close by. Am sure he's a good kid too, so hopefully will get closer to him and take a step back from undesirable friend.

WHen he came in I tried to talk with him. He blanked me. I told him it made me feel bad and he needed to be polite. he carried on grunting and being rude. I snapped. There's only so much I can take, espescially after this morning.

He does drumming and loves reading, neither of which have ever been banned or limited. He can also pretty much always go out. He's currently mad for his ripstick (well, ds2s). SO he's happy to spend ages practicing that. That's why I went with him to find the skate park in the week.

Hmm well I know you do not want to hear this and it's a whole lot easier said than done but I think it would help you if you tried harder not to react.

Maybe you could say something like "your'e obviously in a bad mood right now I'll leave you to it" and leave the room swear under your breath or make rude gestures at the wall. And try to get on with your life, it doesn't have to be a big deal.

I'm sure when your dc were toddlers they would have a tantrum and a few minutes later they would be fine completely over it, but you'd still be upset? Well I think these preteen boys aren't as much different from their toddler selves as it first appears. 'sound and fury signifying nothing'

It's not your fault he is behaving this way, it's not his either, but it will be easier for your whole family if you can try and make light of it a bit and not let it drive a wedge between you all.

I sense from your posts that you are taking this hard, you do have my sympathy and I'm only posting in the hope I can be of some help and not to have a go at you in anyway.

My 11 year old has gone through the negative comments to sisters stage recently.It really annoys me,and I tell her off every time,and make her realise what she is doing.It is exhausting though.One thing that has been great for her,is our local leisure centre does junior gym membership from age 11,and shes out of the house exercising,and it seems to put her in a better,calmer mood.Find the arguing really hard though,because usually only hear half the story,so don't really know who is in the wrong.Used to just mill around in holidays,and kids would play together,now they get bored and argue,so summer holidays are going to have to be a bit more structured,with things planned,still don't look forward to holidays like i used to though.Don't be too hard on yourself though;I think you might be expecting more perfect behaviour,but it all sounds so normal for this age.

thanks. he appears to be being pleasant at the moment, whilst doing his maths homework. Has anyone read Zagazoo?

dreams of sea You are trying too hard IMO Back off. Don't show you are relying on him for company/affection. Don't be too harsh or negative, just be neutral towards him. He'll come round hopefully. But if he doesn't - what the hell? He will have lost the love and support of a fabulous Mum and what for?
He's not stupid IMO he'll soon realise he's made a boob when he needs you for support later on. For now, believe me you are your own worst enemy. Just back off. Don't pander to him. Be supportive but be a bit more detached.

I totally agree with crosswordAddict and lots of others. He needs space and to react to every little thing he does that annoys/upsets you isn't going to help.

I have boys 15,13,11,9,9,6 and have had all of this behaviour before and going through it for the 3rd time.

It sounds to me like he might be hitting puberty quite early (some do!) and mood swings..and bad moods in general i think are the first things you notice.

He will talk to you when he is in the mood to talk, by pressurising (sp!) him into anything will make him cross and you won't get anywhere.

As for horriblness to his brothers, it's going to happen i am afraid. I tell mine with a slight 'tone' to my voice that he should not talk/be nasty to his brother(s) like that as it upsets everyone and by telling them if they are feeling cross/annoyed/not in the mood for socialising then they should have time to themselves/up in their room, go for a walk. This will probably happen a lot, but not forever

I find excercise, letting their energy out somehow helps a lot too.

I think most parents find this stage hard, your boy is growing up and it doesn't just affect him for sure!!

It all sounds normal to me.

Good luck!

oh and give me screaming newborn twins anyday, soooo much easier than the pre-teenage/ teenage years to me!

"How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk" is a really, really good book. I have even used some of the ideas with dh with success

You are right, I am maybe trying to hard. I suppose I have high expectations, and I find spite and rudeness very hard to tolerate.

Anyway, I made a huge effort last night, held my breath and let a few things go that I might otherwise havepicked up on, and we did have a nice evening together, so thanks.

Let me ask a direct Q though, one I've asked earlier but don't think got answer.

A lot of people thought the computer/ipod ban because of serious letter home from school was wrong, because it's not a natural consequence. In that situation, the obvious natural consequence is getting into more trouble at school which will ultimately lead to exclusion. I cannot sit back and let that happen. I also have to be seen to be supporting the school. So, what measures (reaction, punishment, consequence) can I implement at home to support the school and to show ds he has to stop pissing about and change his behaviour?

And wrt physically attacking his db? True, in a few years ds2 is likely to be taller and more well built, so presumably be able to beat him up in return, this is surely the natural consequence in this instance, but I don't fancy that option much either. I don't see natural consequences as been a logical solution to most discipline problems, especially at this age. MAybe for a 2 year old who won't put on his coat or something?

So how do parents of older children tackle discipline? ALl I've read and dealt with up till now is for little kids, this is virgin terratory.

Hi again, if my ds1 physically attacked my ds2 (although normally the other way round ), it would mean a ban on computer games - only because that is the one thing that means EVERYTHING to ds1.

I don't really understand myself why people were saying to you that banning computer time/ipod is not a natural consequence of your ds's behaviour?? Surely you take away what means the most to them? What WOULD be a natural consequence of misbehaving at school?

My dh is a teacher and I do think he can go OTT with the shouting at our ds's tbh. One thing that I have learned from him though, is the 'I'm really disappointed in you' speech which he uses at home and with his pupils at school - very very effective! Also, it tones down the whole conversation, it's not something you shout IYKWIM.

My struggle at the moment with ds1 is his utter irresponsibility, do you have that problem? Losing things, my £10 (he's paying me back of course) now his bus pass (which I will insist he pays for).

Sigh!!!

This has been such an interesting thread - I also have a 12 yo ds in year 7. I suppose in answer to your question dreamsofsea that you could turn it around, so rather than him receiving a punishment for the letter you could say "OK, no xbox (or whatever) from mon-fri so you can concentrate on your schoolwork, but I will phone your class teacher on Fri and if I get a good report, you can go on over the weekend. We'll do this for x weeks and if all the reports have been good, we'll renegotiate xbox in the week".

I also have to have the "rights/responsibilities" chat with ds every so often - it's no use expecting to be able to stay up later/go out on your own/have more pocket money etc if your behaviour is no better than a toddler's - then you get toddler rights not 12 yo rights. He does understand and his behaviour normally improves for quite a while after that.

One thing I do find hard and would be interested in people's opinions is when they're being foul to their siblings, how to get the right balance between being understanding of what might be happening in their world versus their siblings' right not to be shouted at and picked on in their own home. The younger ones like to see that this kind of behaviour isn't (in their eyes) being condoned - understandably so.

One thing I don't think has been mentioned (sorry I haven't read everything), is that boys and dads seem to rub each other up the wrong way at this age. (So do girls and Mums). Sometimes you just have to sit back and let them get on with it. I always try to ensure my DCs know I love them whatever, although I don't always like their behaviour.

I would also recommend Alex

It will get better.

I would take away laptop/console whatever during school nights/a weekend whatever you think, and you have to, as with toddlers, stick to the times. He may (but might not) think again before playing up at school.

I think playing up at school is more important than behaviour at home and i would punish mine with whatever it was they liked doing the best to make them understand.

I would feel horrible and like a mean mum for doing it but that has to be done.

Physically (sp!) hitting siblings also something i think most have to deal with at some time. I split up the fighting parties (now with help from oldest brother(s)) and seperate them, one upstairs/dowstairs. Let it all cool down and then talk to both seperately about what started it all off in the first place, and try and make sense of it.

I know its easier said than done by turning a blind eye when a child of this age has been rude and has shown no respect, but try letting a bit of it go, it doesn't mean that he will be a rude adult, i bet he will look back on it and think how mum was 'cool' and gave me space when i needed it .

It's all trial and error, what may work for you, might not work for others, and i can only post what has (so far) worked for me.

mummytime-i totally agree with your dads and boys comment. I have to frequently remind my DP how he probably acted the same way as DS when he was a pre-teen! He then has a think and agrees!!

I am the main one to deal with the boys, because they do respond to me better. DP was better with our daughter, but i am sure this isn't the case in all families .

I agree - my dh is like victorian dad, which is hilarious considering what a little sod he was. Known him since he was 14 and I remember how bad he was...

Anyway, thought I would give ds chance to play on computer. Said if he emptied dishwasher and tidied sitting room he could earn half and hour.

He was talking in a curious amount of detail about a particular online game with ds2. I asked how he knew all this stuff. He started giving me flannel about his friend using his account. So I checked my history, and sure enough, he's been playing. I am really gutted cos I wanted to do something positive, reward him and let him play, be seen by him to be trying to be fair. But instead, he breaks the ban, and he lies to my face. :( No point in extending the ban. DUnno what to do though. Feel rather frustrated. And disappointed. OTOH, I can understand too, but don't want to say so, cos it'll give the message I don't care about the lies and deceit. and :(

Let him earn back his ipod etc. with good behaviour.
He sounds like he could do with some one to one time with you.is there a joint activity that you and him could do.
My dd1 11 next month despratley needs time with me to just chat and feel a little more grown up.I now take her swimming on a Tuesday leaving the other 3 behind.It is hard as at 7.30pm I just want to veg out myself.However the change in our relationship has been fantastic.We have great chats and I feel close to her.
Good luck.

Sorry Dreams I missed your last post.Ignore the stolen computer time.The ban was too long.How about just saying lets start afresh and these are the ground rules and if you stick to them you and I can ............(whatever) next week as a reward.

Morning. I told him I was really disappointed he'd done that and sent him to his room. I later went down and did't say a word about it. We did a jigsaw puzzle together and it was nice.it's hard because he's understandably now physically distance. I'm not allowed to cuddle or touch him any more, which i undertstand and respect.

Fidelma, I love that idea. I'd love to go that, just thinking about it seems like a relief. But dh wouldn't go along with it.

I wish I could give him a hug.

Dreading ds2 rejecting my cuddles, he's very cuddly.

My thoughts are:
The cycle of punishments isn't working; you wouldn't be soft to abandon that approach if it's not working, you'd be practical.

It's hillarious to read that his dad was a similar sort of sod .

I loathe the whole Alfie Kohn thing, but you might want to look at the principles of Consensual Living. It seems to succeed in families where being authoritarian doesn't work.

I think starting secondary school is the problem, if you could improve his school experience and attitudes then his general mood would improve and he'd be a decent person to live with, again.

Is there only one judo session he can attend each week? More positive outside-of-school activity could help a lot.

I have 3 boys and they fight like silly on bad days, I have to ban conversation and ban them to their rooms, sometimes. They don't know any of the computer passwords, either, so I can control their online access that way. It is tricky with gadget obsessed boys, I'm still figuring it all out, too.

Some good advice from Changeisagoodthing

dreamsofsea Ive been through similar with my eldest son, he is 14 now and it really does get better, i think a lot of it is to do with the changes they go through both physical and environmental.

I think you need to accept that it is normal....he is not the antichrist.

You almost sound as though you are mourning the boy he used to be!

I do understand your upset at how it influences the whole family, it seems as though you are trying to resolve the behavior but its clearly not working.

I really think Changeisagoodthings advice is spot on harsh as it may sound, i dont think anything you and DH do will work if you are both undermining one another.

We're not undermining each other! I was critised on here for the ban, I pointed out that was dh not me, but I felt I had to support him, so he, dh did not feel undermined, and ds saw we were a united team. However I do feel it's too long, so to temper it, I introduced the motivational concept of good behavior / reports from school = opportunity to reduce ban.

My God, dh was mental as a teen, culminating in him (sort of) getting excluded from school. So I don't want ds to turn out like his dad. Though all his family think it's mental he is so strict with the kids when he was so wild himself.

D s is not feeling so good this morning. (he's not a morning person so offer complaining in the morning then perks up when he's woken up a bit). I packed him off to school with the promise of a snuggle on the settee and a nice long go on the lap top when he comes home.

I don't think he's the antichrist . But to a certain extent i am missing him, because he is dramatically different to a few short months ago. Really, almost like a different person.

But I do love him very very much, which is why i'm asking for help to turn this around, because I don't want this to be permanent. Until recently, if someone asked him how is school, what's your teacher like, how is xyz, his automatic answer was "cool" , now it's "crap". His best friend hates school and has been in a lot of trouble all through primary. I really see his behavior and attitude coming directly from this boy. His teacher said exactly the same thing without my input, so it's not just me who sees the connection. (he has only known this boy a year or so). It's like he's turned into Kevin the teenager, except this other boy isn't a jovial Perry, he's an even ruder grumpier sullen little so and so who I wish I could keep away from my ds.

marking my place to read and get 11 year old boy advice!

Have you asked the school if he can be away from this "Best Friend" who sounds like his worst enemy to me. Get him away from him. NOW Don't crack on to your son that you've been to school to sort it out but get on with it behind his back. Yes, I know it's deceitful but sometimes the end justifies the means.
Why does your husband not want you to take DS1 out for an activity just the two of you? It could be a life-saver you never know.
And why not think about enrolling him in CCF cadets or Scouts or something where he'd have a few better role models than that Friend From Hell.

Dreamsofsea, you sound like a genuine caring mum who is trying to maintain a relationship which you fear is breaking up.

My BiL was a total and utter little shit from birth to 20 by all accounts. Now he is a great guy with a responsible job and a lovely family. Don't mean to scare you - 20 yo is a long way off!!!!!

Did you notice that there was another thread yesterday with a mum despairing over her 13 yo dd??? We are all in the same boat.

How did he get access to the computer without your knowledge?

When I was driving my ds back from his activity last night I made an almighty effort in the car to be relaxed and to have 'a laugh' with him. Tbh, I was tired and just wanted to drive in peace, but forced myself to laugh at the verbal diahorrea he was spouting. It was a really nice 15 minutes!!! Cling on to these times, and build on them. I'm with you!