more 11 year old boy problems - it's ruining our family :(

[dreamsofsea]

Sorry, very ong desperate post. Ds1 is 11. He used to be so good. So so good. Pleasant clever funny, friendly, a bit serious and sensitive.

In the last few months he has changed so much. He is so negative and spoilt and unpleasant to everyone and it is now really spoiling our family life. Now his standard way of talking to his brothers is an automatic rude, bitchy, condescending comment. Every time. It is depressing to be around them.

It seems to be infectious and very often all 3 automatically argue or disagree with each other just for nothing. Usually it's nonsense. "What's more powerful, the sun or a space rocket. The sun. No you're wrong, a sapce rocket is because...."

He cannot talk to his db with out being rude, sarcastic and unpleasant. eg this morning he tips all my tea bags on the work surface to take the box to school. I ask what he wants it for, he explains doing boxes, rectangle, cubes etc in maths. His db, ds2 exclaims in happy voice that's a coincidence, that's what he's doing too. Ds1 makes rude bitchy reply. No reason. Constant negativity and bickering.

Mornings are particularly bad for bitching and bickering. I am constantly repremanding them all and in the end usually have to have a talking ban just to stop them arguing. So every morning is miserable.

Ds1 got a letter home from school last week. Very serious warning from school. He's insolent, rude, cheeky, disruptive. (Unbelievable change since last year, which was totally the other end of the spectrum. He made it into grammar school and seems to have morphed into a smart arsed arrogant monster :( )

DH furious. He's on a 1 month computer and Ipod ban. Every now and then ds1 makes a sarcastic comment (none of his friends got punished for the same letter home from school), we've got no right to take his ipod off him.

It now feels like I am constantly fighting with him or punishing him. He is constantly fighting with his siblings. At w/e ds2 was away. For the first time in ages he played with ds3 loads, really really nicely. I even commented to dh as it was remarkable, and praised ds1 for behaving so well. I let him earn a half an hour go on computer as a reward. Later in week, ds3 mentions them playing. Ds1 replies he only played with him cos ds2 gone. ds3 crushed :( Nasty comment for no reason.

This morning ds2 looking for t-shirt. Dh finds ds1 physically attacking him. Dh extends the computer ban by 2 days. On leaving, ds2 says something to him , ds1 shouts 'shut your face' , dh extends the computer ban by another day.

Constant negativity, rudeness and punishments. A total change, like night and day in the last few months.

Home life is stressful and miserable. How do I turn this around? How do I stop the mean, bitchy, condescending comments and bickering?

It sounds like a lot of this is coming from friends at school if they all got this letter home.

However, my friend had similar issues and did this:

made his son join the scouts and start regular sports outside school
Goes on all day fishing trips at the weekend with an adult friend who is a keen fisherman and spends whole days "man to man" in this way (the friend has a daughter so loves having a boy along on th trips)
Threw away the Xbox
Brought forward bedtimes so he gets a lot more sleep
Limits TV massively, no TV before 4pm, no TV after 8pm
No computer in his room, no TV in his room

After 4 months the boy was a different child and everyone has remarked how much happier he seems to be and he is now doing well in school work and getting lots of scout badges and camping with his mates regularly.

I think sometimes we tell children the behaviour we don't want but fail to show them how to develop positive behaviour and interests.

I think you need to start ignoring DS1 an awful lot more. You say you get upset with his comments - why? It's his hormones, not you. You don't need to take it personally - he is lashing out at authority, not you.

You also need to get your younger children onside. Explain to them that DS1 is having problems with hormones and show them that not taking it personally is the solution. If there were no reaction from any of you then the horrible behaviour wouldn't be worth doing. You can lead the way, and help your younger children.

You're right change, I think that is really hard. ÖLoads of people on here have said they have the same problem, to the point it's normal! Are they all shit parents too?

I don't think we use random punishments. Pretty much the only punishment we use is computer/ipod touch ban, because that's the only thing that bothers him. Until recently he's only had the odd, day long ban. The 1 month ban was a strong reaction to a serious problem at school. I wouldn't say dh and I are inconsistant. We do have different personalities and styles, but we support each other as much as possible, hense me not shouting down his 1 month ban, but offering the motivation of good behaviour = shorter ban.

I don't dislike my son, but I am starting to dislike his constant horrid behaviour. It's so unlike him. Sil nickname for him is 'goldenboy' because until recently he was so good, well behaved, clever, polite, kind etc etc. It's like a different kid, and no, I don't like the change.. It is not an improvement. And I don't think being unpleasant and hurtful for no reason is acceptable.

I think exercise is a really good point. WIththe weather slowly improving I think that should become easier.

I think it is tied with starting grammar school. I'd say the problems started then. His teacher is generally positive about him, recognises the terrible combination of him with this other kid and says yes, he can be insolent and disruptive. WIthin the grammar school, he is still among the top few % and says he's bored.

Compputer/iPod ban is a random punishment because there is no cause and effect.

If your child is displaying anti-social behaviour by, eg, being unpleasant to a sibling, you banish that child from the social environment.

If your child has terrible table manners, you withdraw food and banish him from the table.

Etc.

I do partly agree BOnsoir but it's not random if the reliance/obsession with technology is causing the rudeness in the first place.

Duchesse- I assume you are trying to wind up which really isn't helpful.

Drop his iPod in sink- ok so that is telling him that is an appropriate response. So if he destroys something it's ok because according to your views random destruction of someone elses property is acceptable behaviour from an adult.

Adults need to model expected behaviour. A calm rational approach. No snap decisions or hasty shouted punishments. Consistent and thought through.

My son is just 13. Year 8. Last year he started high school. It was awful and friends parents said the same. Sulky- -hours on x box- some minor tantrums- refusal to do family things.

This year he has found his feet. Made his own friends. Worked out the routines. Built up relationships with staff.

He is a different boy. Down in family room. Couplevof hours of games a day max and some days none. Helpful and more confident.

You need to ride it out and love and support not punish.

I have older children as well and they all went through similar.

I have an 12 year old son. An 12 year old son who has changed beyond recognition from the little boy who left primary school 6 months ago - so I really understand how you're feeling.....

We have been having similar issues with DS1 at home, although he is still fine at school. Lots of bickering and name calling with younger siblings, huffing, puffing and eye rolling, complete selfishness, lots of stroppiness and a general feeling that the whole world is against him!!!

A couple of weeks ago, DH took the younger children to the park so I took the opportunity to spend some time alone with DS1. I said 'you're a bit grown up for the park now, aren't you? Shall we go to the cafe for a hot chocolate?' We had a really good chat while we were there. I told him that I found it difficult when he was rude to me or nasty to his siblings. But I also told him that I understand that he is changing and growing up and that we might all irritate him but at the same time we all love him to bits and always will! We talked about things he can do when he's feeling a bit grumpy, tired or irritated (like going to have a bit of time on his own in his room, playing his electric guitar, chilling) I promised I would remember that he's growing up and will treat him like an older child as long as he remembers to treat me well!!

When we got home I went out to do some food shopping. While I was out he sent me a text saying 'I love you, mum'

Since our chat, he has been better, not perfect, but better. It is so hard but I think we need to try and help them through the changes they are going through. As sad as it may be, we are never going to get our sweet little boys back, but hopefully, with alot of love, guidance and understanding, we will have delightful young men who we are equally proud of

Well, how about giving it away to some passing person then-does that pass your stringent test? It's not about the things, it's about the fact that is valuing his stuff more than his relationships with his family. By also valuing his stuff over and above his family relationships one is basically telling him that it is OK to behave like that and that stuff is more important than family. ime of teenagers they easily lose sight of the fact that their family are more important than how they look/ what bling they own and it's good to remind them of what's important from time to time, if only for their own happiness.

Not showing respect your DCs' prized possessions, like iPods, is hardly a reasonable parental role model. If you dispose of your DCs' possessions, you can hardly expect them to respect you or your possessions. Think harder, duchesse!

Ah, sorry Dreams - didn't realise he had already started at grammar school, so majority of my post about yr 6 children isn't relevant BUT I stand by my last paragraph - get 'em out and run ragged with sport and exercise and use the half term as a fresh start/clean sheet.

Banning screen stuff is one thing but getting them busy doing real life stuff so screen stuff is minimised DOES work!

We're involved in Scouting. We lose loads of scouts at this age due to peer pressure - Peer pressure is the single most damaging element of school at this stage I think. If, however, he can dilute the 'negative influence' friends and up his quota of positive influence friends, you're on a winner - sport and activity, especially team pursuits, help so much.

Great thread by the way - loads of useful help and advice for all of us to benefit from

sorry, who's talking of damaging or destroying posessions?

OK, so if reacting to bad behaviour is wrong, then how should dh have handled it differently? H heads to the boys' rooms to catch ds1 attacking ds2, and a few minutes later, ds1 shouts 'shut your face' at ds2. After been spokenm to endlessly about his attitude and behaviour in the last few days. WHast's the logical punichement there? Separating them is what's going to happen in a couple of minutes anyway (different schools) so do we just ignore it? I don't agree with that.

But if he knows that bad behaviour will be punished with ipod ban, then there's no shock or randomenss.

I can say dh thought through his 1 month ban for a long time before he told ds. He mulled it over for hours. If nothing else bothers him, what should yo do? What's the otherwise logical punishement? Let him carry on getting into trouble from school, then ultimately he's excluded. That's a natural consequence to bad behaviour in school. But I'm not prepared to sit back at home while ds has a lark with his mates and screws up his education, pisses off his teachers and disrupts all the other kids.

Dinosaur you sound great.

Also look for the cause. One day last year trying to get family out son threw sweatshirt across the floor and refused to put it on. I didn't shout but asked why. It had GAP on the front. Boys at school said GAP stood for gay and proud. Ok - he didn't need to wear it. We went through all his clothes and removed the gap ones and then went to Jack wills and bought a new hoody.

Boys at this age need to fit in and be part of the crowd. Belonging and not standing out is very important.

Like dinosaur talk to your child. Have alone one to one time.

Dream- duchesse suggested you drop his iPod in the sink.

Bonsoir you are so good at being extremely patronising.

I'm trying. I have 4 kids but I really try. Like I said, a couple of days ago I took just him out to find the local skate park.

Ok.

Plan an activity just for the 2 of you. Let him help chose. Maybe have a meal after.

Chat - not why are you behaving like this but finding out about school and what's happening in his life.

Boys can be very cruel - not bullying but as part of the culture of growing up. Maybe the behaviour at home is him copying what he sees at school as something that big boys do. Maybe he thinks fighting (rough and tumble) shows that you are a man. Being cheeky is a way to hide insecurities etc

some very sensible advice from Heroine

and personally, I would not bring in the discussion of "hormones". I do not think they can be used as an excuse for any kind of behaviour.

I would not stand for anyone claiming "it's just my hormones, I cannot help it". I sometimes think this leads to too much indulging of bad behaviour.

I think you CAN say that it is o.k. to feel moody and grumpy, or frustrated, but it is NOT o.k. to act out based on these feelings.

Does he do any sport? I think sport at this age is very important as an outlet. vital.

But Chandon - it is more than likely that hormone surges are fueling this behaviour. The child's immaturity means they are hard to control.

Soome great tips.

he does judo once a week. Tha's it. He's not keen on football.
tbh sending them to their rooms (excluding them from the social situation eg meal times) isn't ideal as he would happily sit for hours alone in his room reading.

The exercise is a good point I and many here keep coming back to. He does love his judo and I think the ttenagers who help run it are great role models. But that's only on a friday afternoon. He's not very sporty. Dunno what I could do to improve that, though I see it as a big area to improve on.

Re the discipline though, i do agree with Duchesse "they all seem to go through this rude phase at this age and need pulling up on it. Some people choose to let it run but I wouldn't recommend that personally or he'll be doing it for the next 6 years."

and Crosswordaddict "Don't know how you can wean him off best friend but that's what it needs. You need to nip this in the bud because DS2 and DS3 take him as their role model and in a couple of years you'll have all three of them being snide and foul." deffinately. And I am seeing this already.

I need to get the best friend out of the picture, but I don't know how. Said best friend took piss out of teacher recently, ds1 standing there. She asked who did it & threatened to punnish both if culprit didn't own up. (she knew who had done it). Best friend didn't own up, ds1 got punnished. And he's rapidly getting a name as a bad boy cos of this other kid. I've banned them from visiting each others houses. Asked the school to keep them apart during lessons, tried to subtely show ds that this kid isn't so great a friend, allowing him to get punished etc, but to no avail.

And now the others are starting to mimic his rudeness, it's like an infection and it is affecting the whole family. when they do the arguling thing, no you're wrong that's not green, that's khaki, that's not up, that's, I'm better at xyz than you, shut your face. Natural consequences would lead surely to more arguing. I can't ignore it's really overwhelmingly depressing.

How do I bring about a return to relative harmony before I move out and don't leave a forwarding address?

DOesn't help that the are all such smartarses so clever they pick holes in and argue the toss about everything, and see weakness and loopholes and POUNCE.

ok. so he came home for lunch. Grunted or ignored me, any answers I got were monosyllabic. Rude and offhand. Moaned about computer ban. At the weekend we painted something in his room together. It needed finishing off, which I did for him this morning. I told him it was all finished and ready. He just shrugged.

I got cross and said I cannot carry on in this environment where he thinks its ok to talk to me and treat me like shit. I just can't do it. I want to weep. I walked out and ate my lunch alone in a different room :(

dreamofsea,I dont think it needs to be organised sport per se....my kids love to go swimming. They are all competent and I drop them at the pool on a sunday morning and pick them up an hour later. They have a whale of a time.

I also allow my older ones to take the dog out walking....they get freedom, I get the dog walked,and I know they are safe as the dog is with them.

We regularly go stomping out on walks over the weekend- they moan and complain,but once we are there, they love it.

At 11, there are still some great playparks around with equipment specifically for older kids. Try and find them.

I also think, once at senior school, they need more adult responsibility and benefits. So take him up to see a movie with his mates and pick them up after - without his pesky siblings. HAve the boys gang around one friday for a sleepover, and let them commandier the living room. Let him take the bus or train into town.

You are morelikley to get cooperation if you are fun and firm, rather than being a moaning and punitive.

i find it impossible, really impossible to be fun with a person who won't answer me, look at me, talk to me. I have tried. I tried today. The hamster is more communicative.

Dreamofsea, you just modelled exactly the behaviour you hate.

You got cross when he couldnt appreciate what you had done, and you became emotional and walked out the room.

You say he is uncommunicative, but you are showing him this is an acceptable method of conflict resolution.

You have to show him how to be a man - he can only learn by watching you (and your DH/DP).

If you want him to stop shouting - you have to stop shouting.

If you want him to be appreciative, you have to recognise and praise the things he does well.

If you want him to communicate, you have to bepreparedtosay "I feel X when Y happens." rather than "I can't live like this anymore you are splitting up this family". Ie take ownership of those feelings.