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Original poster

why can't toddler (2) learn basic rules?

36 replies

drivingmisscrazy · 07/02/2011 11:17

my DD is lovely, charming, sweet - and mostly pretty well behaved. She talks well - I believe - for her age (she was 2 a couple of weeks ago), but she cannot seem to establish a relationship between cause and effect. So, no matter how many times she is told, she turns her plate over at the end of a meal, or pours water on the floor when she has a drink, she doesn't learn to stop the behaviour. It's not that she doesn't understand that we don't want her to do these things (so if you warn her that you are going to take the drink off her, she 'drinks' it) just that she cannot (will not?). She will tell us to 'go away' if she wants to do something that we won't allow her to (turning muesli onto the table, spooning it back into the bowl - messily). We are consistent I think: if she bangs a toy on something she is warned, and then the toy is taken away. Naughty corner doesn't work as she just turns it into a game - comes out, repeats the behaviour and runs back laughing, shouting 'naughty corner'!!

I endlessly read stuff on here about how if you are firm and consistent your toddler will 'get it' eventually but have little to suggest this is the case with my own one! Or perhaps 'eventually' is further away than I realised?

Is it just that whatever bit of her brain that's needed hasn't developed yet? or that she is stubborn (I think she is)? Or are we insufficiently disciplinarian?

Curious for your thoughts/experiences

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Adair · 07/02/2011 11:28

Have you told her what TO do?

negative instructions v hard to process - much easier to follow 'keep you plate on the mat' than 'stop tipping your plate over' iyswim.

Also think your consequences are too big and final. Try 'if you bang your spoon I will take it away. Eat with your spoon.' she bangs, you take it away... then GIVE IT BACK and say 'now, eat with your spoon. no banging'. repeat etc. (obv not twenty times!!).

Give her an easier opportunity to get it right and she'll remember that far better.

She is def experimenting too - and sounds v clever!

Original poster
drivingmisscrazy · 07/02/2011 11:57

Adair thanks - I THINK I give her positive instructions too - hard to know cos all I hear myself saying is 'no'. But the idea about consequences being too final sounds right - more positive reinforcement, I think. She doesn't respond well to negativity/shouting etc.

She is basically a good kid, but she is 2!

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Adair · 07/02/2011 12:46

Yup! Grin

JarethTheGoblinKing · 07/02/2011 12:51

Agree with Adair :)
MIL pointed out to me that I was giving negative instructions to DS, and she told me how much harder it is for them to process.

Once she'd pointed it out to me I noticed it a LOT. Itry and say 'do this' rather than 'stop that/don't do that' but it's really hard and sometimes they do just need to hear the word no.

Original poster
drivingmisscrazy · 07/02/2011 14:48

that's really interesting - I had no idea. I know that she cannot get 'either'/'or' instructions yet (except when one of the alternatives is chocolate Wink). This is actually really helpful.

OP posts:
JarethTheGoblinKing · 07/02/2011 15:38

DS can't get either this or that at all (and he's 3.2!)

Just wait until the selective hearing kicks in Wink

Original poster
drivingmisscrazy · 07/02/2011 18:04

she already has selective hearing...

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Tgger · 07/02/2011 22:29

Yeah, I think your expectations are a little high Smile.

Definitely go for the positive instructions, and then reward when followed! Even simple things, if done then praise, praise, praise. The idea is it then becomes more fun to do what Mummy and Daddy say than not do.

I just say stuff like "that's for drinking, not playing with, are you going to drink?" answer "no"- DD carries on playing her tip the water on the table game, "well if you're not going to drink then I'm going to take the cup away", do you want to drink? - she drinks and stops playing etc etc- or she carries on playing and I take it away.

Also pick your battles, what seems like bloomin' annoying destructive behaviour is often toddler curiousity and play Wink.

Meglet · 07/02/2011 22:33

My DD is 2.5, consistent doesn't seem to work with her either. We're heading in the right direction but she mucks about a lot.

I agree with Tgger, choose your battles. It starts to sink in when they are a bit older.

theyoungvisiter · 07/02/2011 22:42

I think you've had good advice on here but I wanted to add one thing;

"So, no matter how many times she is told, she turns her plate over at the end of a meal, or pours water on the floor when she has a drink, she doesn't learn to stop the behaviour."

The fact is, this is FUN! Watching the water pour on the floor is fun. So is your reaction. Especially if you are cross. If you take the cup away afterwards, so what? She's still had her fun!

It's perfectly possible that she does understand that you don't want her to do this - and just doesn't care.

They have to be a bit older before they get the idea of being "good" and start to get upset at the idea of you being upset yourself. At two they don't give a flying fig what you think, really! (In the nicest possible way Grin)

HingCogNeeto · 07/02/2011 22:47

yes, she may well be using schemas to learn

I know it sounds a bit woo and wha-hey but have a read

here

eg banging toys may be percussive schema

pouring water may be exploring trajectory/straight lines

spooning museli in and out of bow may equate to enclosure/containing

Original poster
drivingmisscrazy · 07/02/2011 22:47

youngvisiter (great name!) - yes, it's all fun, all good exploratory play (she is actually very skilled at pouring from one thing into another Wink) - and I try not to react too much. She often anticipates - as she throws/pours etc says, theatrically 'oh, DD!' I think I just want some servants to help clean up the mess, really...

And you're right, I don't think she cares...

OP posts:
Original poster
drivingmisscrazy · 07/02/2011 22:48

she is, on the other hand, very well behaved in public

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COCKadoodledooo · 07/02/2011 22:50

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "...She's 2" tbh!

I was told when ds1 was small that the word "Don't" means nothing to them until they're 4 at least. They just don't hear it/can't process it.

It took a while for me to consciously change - even stuff when I was being calm and rational instead of raging (and yes he did wind me up that much!) like "We don't pour our drinks on the table" as I calmly took the cup away (that I thought was the right thing to do!) had to become "please put your cup on the table when you're not drinking".

But it did work, I think. And having written this out and going through a spate of wilful behaviour with him just now (he's now 7), I think I may have slipped into old habits and should go back to the positive approach. So thanks for posting this!

earwicga · 07/02/2011 22:51

I used positive reinforcement a lot at this age, which was really easy as I had twins and would praise the child who was acting in the desired way.

I don't know if it would work, or if you could do it, but I remember reading that you could have dolls or something with a bowl etc. and praise them for behaving. Sounds a bit wooey, but maybe could work?

Or change bowls etc. into something that she has painted herself or something with a nice pattern that she can look at.

JarethTheGoblinKing · 07/02/2011 22:56

Thanks for the schema info, EYFS takes this into consideration, doesn't it?

HingCogNeeto · 07/02/2011 22:58

yes, schemas are used a lot in early years, jareth

JarethTheGoblinKing · 07/02/2011 22:58

Hmm, interesting. :)

HingCogNeeto · 07/02/2011 23:00

(I can be extremely boring about early years, learning styles, acquisition of language, skillsets and on and on so I'll shut up or you'll reverse away pretty sharply Grin)

Original poster
drivingmisscrazy · 07/02/2011 23:05

HingCogNeeto actually I am fascinated by this - loved the schemas stuff, that's her to a T. She's very verbal, but also very practical - she won't do anything unless, in her 2 year old way, she can see the point to it. So if she wants something that happens to be green, she will tell you. But if you point to something and ask her what colour it is she either won't answer or will tell you something nonsensical...

She has been busily working out relationships between big ducks and little ducks ('that's I mummy', 'where's the baby') incorporating, very sweetly, the fact that she has 2 mummies and life would be terrible for the baby ducks if they didn't too...

jareth what's EYFS?

this has turned into a really interesting thread - was waiting for the 'use your stern voice' brigade to show up Wink

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JarethTheGoblinKing · 07/02/2011 23:09

Hing, no - MIL knows about this stuff but doesn't feel like she can talk to me about it without telling me what to do (is how I see it)

EYFS - early years foundation something.

I am of the stern voice brigade. I have just started sitting DS on the steps (not naughty step, just the steps) when he's naughty. Amazingly he stays there and apologises when I go back to him and tell him what he did wrong (earlier it was throwing everything around in the living room). When he does things that break the rules he gets VERY told off (no throwing/hitting/biting)

Anything else is a pick-your-battles approach

HingCogNeeto · 07/02/2011 23:14

MissCrazy, the EYFS is the Early Years Foundation Stage, used for childcare from birth to the end of the reception year in school in England which sounds a bit po-faced but sets standards for childcare

Original poster
drivingmisscrazy · 07/02/2011 23:16

I'm not knocking stern voices jareth - it's just that she doesn't respond to it - so it's (for now) simply that it's an approach that doesn't work. How old is your DS?

OP posts:
JarethTheGoblinKing · 07/02/2011 23:54

He's 3

chipmonkey · 08/02/2011 00:16

This is the sort of thing that used to bother me when ds1 was 2.

Now, with ds4 I am just short of handing him the crayons and showing him the best spot on the wall to scribble on.