help - on verge of giving up career after this week.....

[heyelp]

Long story. Will summarise!

I am mum of 2 DCs - DS age 4 (just) and DD age 2 (3 in April). Have been working for big multinational for 15 years - straight from University and have a big career. Am main breadwinner etc. After having DS I really didn't want to go back but went back for 6 months in stress free role and had DD very quickly. That was the plan. Then I had to go back for 6 months after DD to get my maternity pay - get 9 months full pay on condition of going back for 6 months after that. Couldn't afford not to do it.

Full intention of then giving up and moving abroad in my DH's homeland (my DH is from abroad in continental Europe). We spent years planning it. Bought a wreck. Rennovated it etc. Took 6 years. Had it all planned. Went back to work for this 6 months (that got extended to 14 months - which suited us more financially as well) but then I got cold feet about going. Loads of reasons. Didn't feel DH was sorting out the rennovation quickly enough, because the part of the house we were to live in wasn't finished I was nervous about cutting my job etc - remember I had worked all my life and rennovations can come in about double planned (the part we were to live in was the barn and the main house had already been finished - we rent that part out for income). We thought we could scrape by. But then 2 things happened. I really started to enjoy working again. PLUS a new amazing job came up BASED in his homecountry - we could live in the amazing capital city on an expat allowance and it is a dream job for somebody in my profession.

We decided that I would apply and let fate decide. I got the role. Same company etc as I had worked in. Basically we moved in May 2010 - we love living here, the perks are great. My DH looked after both DCs for 6 months to get them settled and he didn't work. Although he was miserable in that role - seeing me in my new role and loving it and him not being suited to stay at home etc. He got a job and started to work in Nov 2010. He loves it and I love it that he is working again as his confidence is a lot higher. He doesn't earn as much but that is not the issue. The fact is he is working and is a lot happier which also makes me happy.

So all sounds great right? But then I always have this nagging doubt about the DCs in the back of my mind. They go to nursery 5 days a week from 8.30am until 3pm. I drop them off and a nanny picks them up. I get home about 7pm. Play for a bit and put them to bed. My job is draining and hard work. I travel a bit - long haul - about once every 2-3 months - will be gone about 3-4 days for that. But the travel is not the issue - it is more the day to day not seeing them and KNOWING them.

Went away this week on hols with mum, DH, sister, sister's DH and her baby - DD age 1. My kids were not great with my niece. She is so sociable and lovely. She tried to join in. My two are very close and just didn't let her play with them. They were quite mean. I was shocked and embarrassed. I disciplined them quietly in private. But it carried on - they weren't aggressive - they just kept saying "no" and "go away" all the time and just said they wanted to play with each other.

My mum was a SAHM and has always thought I should not work as much. My sister works 3 days a week but lives near my mum and is a homebody - I have always been the thrill seeker in the family. Their faces will always remain with me. They looked at me in disgust at my kids behaviour - they don't see them THAT often because we are living abroad.

I don't know what to do. Serious dilemma. Did I make the wrong decision 1 year ago. Should I have not taken the job and stuck to original plan of jacking it all in. I cannot do my job on anything less than full on. It is relentless. I would really have to give up. I don't want to do another role in the same company. I would prefer to retrain and do something entirely different. All made worse because DH is now settling into his new role - but even he says we would really struggle to live where we are on his salary.

ahhhh - don't know what to do. Pls give me some perspective.

Yes I understand WimpleOfTheBallet. I have just delivered the work for 2011 and am now working on 2012. It was such a hectic time to get everything in I was crazy. The thing is i love what I do totally love it. So there seems to be 3 options.

1. Stay in my current job and strive to get some balance back now the crazy period is over. My contract finishes in 2 years. We could get some savings under our belts and then be freed up to do something else. However downside is that kids would be 6 and 5 when I eventually quit. That seems old to me.

1. Stay put but get a part time job in a related field. Upside is that I would defnitely get balance back. Downside is that we would lose our flat so financially would be a double whammy. Would mean less help for me around house etc and less ability to save up for future and really milk my current opportunity financially

1. Quit the city and move up to the house in middle of nowhere. Downside is that would not be with DH at least initially as he would have to carry on working - but we could see how we go and if I get myself working a bit there we may eventually be able to get him to come up with the scant savings we already have.

These are the 3 options I now need to work through. Finances are important but I don't want them to drive everything as we would manage and am sure would not be on poverty line - we do always have the income from the rental etc.

Thank you all for your help. Feeling a bit calmer today.

Also feeling very annoyed at my family now. My mum texted last night to see if we got home safely - and that was that! Nothing about anything that had happened etc. Just totally brushed under the carpet as it has been for 20 years! I have to reassess now whether I keep putting myself through the upset. Also just spoke to DH who is away from work about these 3 options and we are going to work through them together. Plus he said he had already spoken to the secretary at nursery on Friday about DS behaviour there and has set up a meeting for when he is back (it is his native tongue so he must be there with me). The secretary said that nothing had been reported so far etc but she would be looking into it in the meanwhile.

So thank you all. Onwards and upwards. Have 2 young DCs now running around!

It sounds to me as if your children's childcare is the real issue here, rather than you working. Can you not employ a really nice, well-mannered, maternal nanny who will instil other values, more similar to those of your own family, in your children?

See all I think when I read this is that heyelp shouldn't go on holiday with her mum or sister ever again. You are close to your family, you know - your DH and DC! Your work sounds fine but for time with your DC you need holidays without external nonsense from non-immediate family, rather than giving up work!

I wouldn't waste precious holiday time with my dc's and dh being arond people who make you feel so bad about the choices you have made.

In your position I don't think I would give up my job, I would do option 1 because you are in a lucky position to be able to save and get yourself a safety net. I couldn't live away from my dh so options 3 would be out. I would do option 2 if it wouldn't leave us too strapped for cash, you say it would mean you had less help round the house so the time you save by not working would possibly be taken up by domestic chores (although you would still be around dc, it wouldn't be as much quality time)

I think feeling guilty is what mums do, I'm a childminder so I'm with my dc's all the time as well as earning money but I still have guilty feelings like if my dc's moan because I've got a child they don't especially get on well with or a child who accidentily breaks their toys (even though I say leave your toys upstairs if you don't want to share them) or because I can't give my dc's 1-1 attention most of the time. I'm doing my best. I think that's all anyone can expect.

Your dc's are young enough to not really remember this time in their lives, my memories of my life before the age of 6 is very hazy so imo if you give up work when your dc's are 5 and 6 that is the time they will remember and by then you will be financially secure enough to enjoy the time with them.

Good luck!

LoveMyGirls - do you understand the difference between conscious and unconscious memory?

To me the way your sister was behaving is just like my sister. She has no children and she just delights in making clear to me all the time that she would never do anything in the same way as me. I´ve done everything stupidly and basically she just cannot understand me at all. Of course it is great to feel confirmed in every view you ever had. It is a trait in my family to criticise people who are not like them and I think the reason for it is just that it makes them feel more self assured... just downright superior. I don´t know if this is the issue for you or if it´s just plain sibling rivalry, your sister wanting to "win" by you "losing" or whatever. You say that your mother has always sat back and watched in such situations. It sounds as if this may well go back a long way??? - even if in another form. I am only now starting to realise some things about our family dynamics which I would never have been able to question ten years ago. Some things which I always thought were good for me about our family, I´m now starting to realise were just keeping me in my place and the family power dynamics in a status quo.
Whatever, I would think that you really need to consider making a greater mental distance between you and your mother and sister. You obviously already realise that they just have different needs from you, they are very different people. So, maybe you can come to the position where you can just quietly observe that but be on your own planet where comments about your children or whatever don´t get any credence.
It is such an old chestnut of "my children are better than your children" and that the parent could just flick a switch and the children would behave differently, except for that the parent is clearly incompetent. I get the latter from my sister the whole time. On the one hand your sister´s kids are not as old as yours so she hasn´t reached that stage yet. On the other hand if she´s a SAHM depending on her circle of friends, she´s maybe watching or on the receiving end of the games of "my child is better than your child" and "you´re an incompetent parent" a lot of the time ... while you´re busy doing other things.
My dd walked up to ds just now and, for absolutely no reason, pinched him. Just because she could and it hurt him. I know my sister does exactly the same nowadays. She tries to hurt me just because she can. Could this be part of what is going on here??

OP it sounds from your post that you have carefully made a lovely life for your family. Whatever we do as parents there will always be a bit of guilt (& plenty of people around who try to enhance that guilt feeling for their own reasons!) as there is no such thing as a perfect balance.

having said that it does sound like you have the balance as good as anyone can get it!

For the record I have stayed home with some of the kids & worked a lot of hours at other times, in my experience my kids who went to nursery were better around kids of a similar age when they were toddlers. I don't think any very little kids have much patience with babies though they are naturally driven by their own needs at that age. As they got older I dont think it mattered.

Be kind to yourself sounds like you are doing great :)

Sorry have made cardinal sin of only reading OP but just wanted to reassure you (as I'm sure others have) that I'm sure your dc's behaviour to your niece was nothing to do with you working. 1 year olds are really not interesting to 3/4 year olds.

I have a 4 year old ds who frequently behaves like that to his own 1 year old sister, and I am at home with them all the time! I would have an uphill struggle to get him to engage with anyone else's one year old as well.

Sounds like you and your family are very happy - I would try not to let other people's opinions sway you. FWIW my mum was horrified when I went back (part time) after having ds, but it was the best thing for us.

Thank you all so much. Have read all of your posts. One of the best things for me to do was split the "family" issue and the "work" issue as advised. That is certainly a lot clearer.

The family issue is getting clearer to me now. My family can make me miserable so whereas they are fine for surface time, any deeper and it gets hairy. So I liked the suggestion to leave it to meals etc and not extended breaks or holidays. This will be difficult because we live abroad - but I will basically leave it to them to make any moves from now on. If they want to come and stay in our flat here then fine. Indeed, it seems that when on OUR territory (my DH and me) then things are a lot better. My DH fully agrees and is pleased that I am finally seeing the light and stop beating myself up about them. It is a bit sad to be honest but I have tried to talk adult to adult for so long and it gets me nowhere - so it will simply have to be like this.

The work issue is as the 3 options above. DH and I will work through them. It may indeed be better for me to carry on for the next couple of years in what I am doing now. It is so much better to think through now it is detangled from the above family matters. I am DEFINITELY going to leave the office earlier though - 5pm so home at 5.30pm and if need be I will sit and work in the evening after DC in bed. Need to stick to that one. I work in a global way so it kind of goes all hours anyway so it won't matter if I break it up.

And the DC issue. As already said - we have set up a meeting with the nursery - but I don't think really it is going to be that much of an issue. DS certainly likes going and when I leave him in the morning he is fine. And as Bonsoir says, I am going to speak to the nanny tomorrow - who is with them for 3-4 hours a day - and tell her to be stricter on their Ps and Qs! My DH is also taking note as well. Sometimes you need a bit of a kick into position.

So thank you all.

Glad to hear you are feeling better about everything. Issues like work, family and kids are so complicated - there are no easy answers! And lol at your wish for 2 separate parallel lives - don't we all wish for that!!! Good luck with sorting everything out.

Golly Heyelp - I think your sister and mother sound an utter nightmare.

Its perfectly normal for older children to not want to play for long periods of time with a 1 year old and the little smug comments would have made me see red.

I'm a SAHM and lordy sometimes my children behave in a way that is rude/silly/selfish - its because they're children and they're learning/pushing boundaries etc and not because I'm a bad parent.

You sound to me like you're doing a fab job and your children are lucky to have a mother who is such a high-achiever and is setting them such a good example

And roll-on 2 years and lets see how your sister copes when her child goes through the 'mine/snatching' phase [evil smile]

Without having read the whole thread, your dcs were behaving totally normally for their age

Please don't let your family's sniping get to you. Imagine how you'd feel if you did give up work and they continued to give you grief? All children do at some time or other.Good luck.

Your family are being totally unrealistic, your children will play with your niece once they perceive her as a child, ie once she can walk and talk. I understand why you don't know this, but your mum really should remember. It is normal. Don't give up a career you love, look at your childcare if you are not happy with it by all means, but don't give up your career unless you aren't enjoying your life.

And yes, come home, put them to bed then finish work. That's an idea that works for many people.

i no work is important in life but i would hate to have your life your children only grow up once my dd is very sociable because im always taking her to do different activities she can be mean as well and say no thats mine but i have words and she will share i think if you want to work that many hours you shouldnt off had children its not fair for them to be at nursery or with a nanny you could get a job that allows you time with your children sooner or later you will have missed the chance they will hit teens and you will be the last person they want to speak to you could have a job like this when your children are older right now your missing out and they are to money isnt everything

Also (having now read the whole thread) I wouldn't dream of trying to force older children to play with my 1 year old. In fact I often have to move her away and distract her when she is "joining in", even though I think she is unbearably cute. She just isn't capable of playing at even close to the same level.

Your sister might just about have the excuse of being PFBish, but your mum must be slightly mad if she had three children and thought this was reasonable.

heyelp I could have written the work part of your post 2 years ago, when I was on expat salary in Rome earning a lot more than my Italian dh. I was exhausted, with 3 dcs under 5 and felt like I couldn't cope, but I couldn't stop because I was earning the money!

We moved so dh could get a higher-paid role, and I stopped working for a year, and couldn't handle that either, partly because the new city is so much less agreeable. I really hated my sudden loss of professional identity - be very wary of that aspect if you've been doing well at work for 15 years. So I've started again, but have insisted on working only my contracted hours, and working 70% from home.

I'm still not happy - I've realised that older children need more attention from their parents: imagine when 3 of them are having social probs at school/difficulty learning to read/just wanting to do things like play chess all the time?! We used to find it quite easy to find lovely Filippino ladies to care for our babies brilliantly, but it's harder to find someone to support their school learning in a way that makes you feel confident.

And I want some free time to have fun, do creative things, just idle, etc. At the moment I have very little. It's just work/children/domestic tasks. We have taken on a high-spending lifestyle that takes too much work to maintain and enjoy. So we're trying to dismantle part of that (by things like getting rid of the cars, moving to a smaller house, etc), and I'm pushing for a part-time role, but where I will be very strict about doing 3x 8h days, and never making up more time outside those. This might be possible for me, maybe not for you.

I realise none of this is very helpful in your decision making. I personally find it a shame that we all think that 'career' and salaries are more important than having fun, spending time messing around with the kids etc, but I'm also in that trap.

I think the best way out is to make a careful plan about how you will be able to fulfil any need for professional activity if you do give up your job - like seeking out freelance options, applying for other work with more flexible hours, starting freelancing on the side while still working (OK, I realise this is a tall order!). Something that will allow you to transition to less work without having to pack it all in and then have a mid-life crisis because you don't have a job!

I'm no expert in the family dynamics side, but I think they sound rather selfish - unable to see things from your point of view, and probably rather jealous of your career, which makes them criticise your parenting.

And your children sound completely normal. I agree though with whoever said that you may improve your quality of life with a really great nanny. If you stay in your current job then the cost is probably worth it.

heyelp - I think your family are picking up on any tiny little thing to make their point and are being mean minded and selfish when they should be supportive and helpful. Not wanting to play with a 1-year old baby is perfectly reasonable - they are dribbly, snotty and boring company. There is nothing odd about a 3 and 4 year old thinking that, because it's true. We only find them interesting and adorable because of our protective instinct. At 3 and 4, your instinct is to seek protection, not to go around looking after everyone else; and you have a fierce pride in no longer being a baby, so a perfectly normal reaction to that is to not want to be tarnished with the "baby" brush by being expected to play with one. This is just as normal a reaction as going around cooing after a baby and playing at looking after it to prove that you are a grown up, as some other children do. And saying please and thank you at appropriate times comes more easily to some children than to others - my ds1 has no trouble with this, whereas ds2 ALWAYS has to be reminded. So, to be so overtly critical of your children's behaviour, your family are denying the validity of their personalities, not criticising uneducated bad manners (a bit like they appear to have done to you all your life).

My dss are just the same as yours - have said point blank that their younger cousins will be of no interest until they are at least 2 or 3 years old. No matter how much we talk through how they would have felt at 1 or 2 if an older child had been this dismissive of them, they still don't see why they should have babysitting duties inflicted on them (which is what they are, really, if the child in question is not capable of playing anything of interest to them and will wreck any games they play around it). Only in the last few months has ds1, who is nearly 7, started becoming more tolerant of babies and understanding that expecting him to be nice to them is not asking him to admit he is one of them. And I'm a SAHM.

Imho, if you were a SAHM, you would still be doing it wrong in your family's eyes - your children still wouldn't be saying thank you when they were supposed to, nor would they be nice to babies - but this time, the criticism would be even more offensive, as it would be direct criticism of you, your personality and the personalities of your children. Where is the niceness or empathy in that?

As for what you should do - you do only have young children once in your life. They are constantly changing as they grow up and it is fascinating and a privilege to watch and take an active part in. If you feel you are missing out on something and are not too tied up in the identity your work gives you (it may take you by surprise, if you give up, quite how much it defines you and how odd it is to feel the loss of it), then start to do something positive about it sooner rather than later. If you just say you will sort it out in a couple of years, then you may find yourself being taken hostage by circumstances again, whereas if you start remorselessly making plans and putting concrete things in place, then you are more likely to do what you say, rather than let the status quo continue. Think very hard about what the most realistic alternative is and then make yourself make it happen. Also, think about safety nets - is there any way of getting back into what you are doing now if the alternative goes belly up, or will you inevitably be cutting your ties forever with your old life???

heyelp I really feel for you. There are always going to be poeple that judge us and disagree with how we live, which is hard enough as it is, without those same poeple being family.
In my own life I am really starting to see that, sometimes, for whatever reason, change will not come about in the other person, so I can only manage myself and what I do in response to them, if that makes sense?
I really wouldn't be so sure that there aren't underlying feelings of resentment/inferiority/jealousy. You sound lkike a pretty dynamic woman to me (who just happens to be going through a rough patch)

Excellent advice on here on detangling the issue of you working and your children's behaviour, which are very separate in my opinion.

I just wanted to say that I have been in your sister's shoes many times with family and friends and it really is very frustrating and hurtful, so I guess I can see it from your sister's point of view.

I think it has nothing to do with you working, but all to do with them maybe not being exposed to younger children and just needing to learn to be kind.

I would try and crack down on this behaviour - at that age I don't think a telling off in private will work as they need be stopped on their tracks immediately.

Good luck with the work thing, it is hard to juggle it all, but only you can know what the answer is and nobody should judge you for what you choose to do!!!

PS I wholeheartedly disagree that a 3 and 4 year old cannot play with a 1 year old! My children always play/entertain their baby sister spontaneously, they are also hugely kind with other younger children. We've had younger children to stay and people always comment on how kind my children are to them and I am so very proud of that!

We have also had older children to stay who have been very mean spirited to my children and the parents have just sat and watched, which I thought was pretty rubbish tbh.

Never sit and watch another child be unpleasant to a baby, but don't expect all children to enjoy playing with babies, because they don't. And I can understand why they don't. I have told my children off for being rude, I have made them apologise for rudeness, I have explained to them how much younger children admire older children and how they should feel proud that the younger child wants to play with them and learn from them, I have tried again and again to help facilitate something for them to do with babies that all can enjoy, but at the end of the day, I can't expect them to enjoy what I ask of them - I just expect the good manners not to be unkind. And I am more proud of my children for being polite to other peoples' children than I would be if they actually enjoyed playing with them and therefore found it came easily... And it is much harder for children who do not have younger siblings to deal with younger children affecting their games. They learn greater empathy as they get older, though - you can't force empathy upon them, or consider them inferior beings for not feeling it in the way you would wish them to. They grow into it as they get older. To assume all children should and must be able to do this at 3 and 4 is like saying all children should be able to read at the age of 5 - offensive and patronising, and not understanding that however hard you work at it, all children are different and can do different things at different times.

offensive and patronising

I nearly agreed with your post until you said I was being offensive and patronising!

I don't think so.

I don't think it is offensive to say that I would tell my children off for being rude to other children, no matter what age! But I was just being helpful trying to say the OP that, having being the parents of that 1 year old it can be hurtful when cousins are mean to them. It's hard to understand it if you haven't been in that position, and I have quite a few times.

But I do agree that maybe I have it easy as my children have had younger siblings so they understand how to behave around younger children. I suspect it will be harder for my youngest and maybe it will be then that I will have a battle then!

PS I was also the younger child in an extended family and my older cousins were incredibly mean and nasty to me. They were never told off and their behaviour always tolerated by the whole family and to this day the thought of long summers spent in that scenario makes me cringe.