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3.8yr old, very very difficult behaviour, feel like I can't cope and worrying about what is 'normal'...

37 replies

hazeyjane · 25/01/2011 13:12

Our 3.8 year old dd is very difficult to deal with at the moment. She is incredibly stubborn and has very set ways of doing things, but it is getting to a point where it is making it difficult to do simple things like getting to school or walking down the street.

Yesterday we had to meet her older sister being dropped off at the local leisure centre, but in order to do so we had to walk down the high street, she wanted to go a different way , which would have taken us in opposite direction. There was nothing I could do to budge her, she tipped the pushchair (with ds in) over, hit me and screamed like a banshee, eventually I called my dh who came and managed to get her in the car.

This morning I couldn't get her to leave the house for the school run, it was horrendous, and I ended up in tears dd1 was late, I kept dd2 at home. I am so worried that I seem to have no way of dealing with her, I have tried everything I can think of, but she just goes into a blind rage and is immovable.

I know that this is a difficult age, and I know that she has been unsettled by the arrival of her brother (6 months old), but I worry that this isn't 'normal' behaviour or a phase, and even if it is, I could really do with some advice on how best to deal with it. Also where is the best place to ask for advice on this sort of thing, the doctors? HealthVisitor?

Any words of advice or help would be very great. Thankyou.

OP posts:
SenoritaViva · 25/01/2011 13:23

I really would go and see your GP about it.

It could be any number of things and I am not in a position to comment.

Refer you to the right professional(s) where necessary
Offer some advice / help / referral on having you cope with her behaviour so that it is not so destructive to the whole family
The earlier any challenges a child faces (whether long or short term) are identified, the sooner they learn coping strategies and the less overall impact it has on their, and your, lives.

Don't panic yet but do investigate it, it isn't quite right. Good luck.

TotalChaos · 25/01/2011 13:49

Sounds like she likes to feel in control, gets anxious about transitions, it might help if you give her lots of warnings and explanations before going out etc, possibly even do a visual timetable.Wld speak to whichever of hv and gp is more approachable, also ask if nursery have any concerns about behavior.

Might be worth reading picture books about new baby to see if she has issues round the baby that are troubling her, as you might get more out of her by indirect discussion than direct questioning

containher · 25/01/2011 14:04

I disagree with SENORITA, this behaviour is perfectly normal for some 3.8 year olds. Some children are naturally defiant and love to 'break the rules' And the more they get away with the behaviour and the more they see you loose control, the worse it becomes. If the nursery haven't flagged up anything that causes them concern, I would say it is normal for your child- and you need to 'train' her for it to not be normal!

I have one of these types, she loves a drama, she is contrary and stubborn and has done exactly what your DD did yesterday. I carry a pair of baby reins on the pushchair. When she is up to her tricks I warn her I will put the BABY reins on her - if she continues to misbehave, I manhandle the screaming bansehee into the reins and drag her where I want to go, if she decides not to walk! I ignore everyone around me and march her straight home to the naughty step! she refused to walk with me 2 weeks ago and i did this in tesco and for the 20 min walk home, she screamed all the way. However, now she has that as a point of reference, the threat of me strapping on the reins is fresh enough in her memory and so she has only got up to the point of me warning her I will put the baby reins on, and she has complied ..so far.

She also loves to not get dressed in the mornings ( I have 6 kids to get out of the house by 8.30) I tell her if she refuses to get dressed I will take her in her PJ's and with no shoes on, and to prove I am serious, I take her out of the back door ( earlier than the school run) and pretend we are leaving, once her feet get cold and she thinks i will take her on the school run in her vest and knickers, she decides to change her mind.

Sticker and reward charts don't work so well with my one - ( they worked with my others) she loves to break rules, and hates to comply.

I would say that getting someone else( ie your husband) to deal with her is a fatal mistake- you have shown her that she has power over you and she is control. Remember that you are in charge, you are bigger than her, you are physically stronger than her. And she needs to know that she can rely on you to be able to help her when she is losing control.

Often children like this , for all their bravado are actually sensitive and are scared by their emotions. They don't know how to control themselves, it is up to you to make the rules, she can choose certain things( ie what to have on her toast- what colour shoes to wear) , but she needs to know, when you want to walk the right way through town, then whether she is doing it nicely, or screaming like a banshee- you are the one to be in charge. Life with a child like this can be a constant battle- but you will have to fight this battle if you don't want it to get worse.
I am not talking about breaking the spirit of a child like this ( impossible anyway) Being strong-willed and defiant can be marvelous qualities, but what i am saying is that ultimately your child needs to know she can trust you to be in charge- as it is too overwhelming for a child to have too much power.

For advice on the sorts of things you can do- and in general it is the always be consitent rule that is the main key to sucess- then go to your local parent center. Many of them have family liason advisers and parent craft type courses.

It can be hard having a child like this - mine is very draining, but I also LOVE her for her spirit, my others are fairly placid and easy going and certainly would never be defiant or knowingly do something naughty , just for a reaction. but my little 3year old rule breaker is a feisty little thing, and I hope that as she gets older, this will take her far, rather than be the annoyance that it is to me now. Good luck

containher · 25/01/2011 14:04

WOW - that was LONG! Sorry got a bit typing happy!

Bramshott · 25/01/2011 14:09

Marking place for helpful advice - DD2 (4 in March) is MASSIVELY stubborn. She is also incredibly independent, which I'm hoping will be great for the future! Currently dreading the prospect of getting her ready for school from Sept, but trying to tell myself she will change a lot between now and then . . .

spursmummy · 25/01/2011 14:44

My dd was 4 yesterday and is going through another phase of throwing tantrums at the slightest provocation (basically not getting her way), it is utterly exhausting and draining. I'm a single parent and work full time and I know dd doesn't do this in nursery or as much with my parents, I'm the one who's getting the brunt of it. I am going to speak with my health visitor and perhaps also get our doctor to check her over to make sure there's nothing wrong. None of her routines have changed and there's nothing she's started eating or drinking recently that's new.

Containher thank you for your words of wisdom. I also admire my daughter in a way for being stubborn and wilful, I hope it translates into her having more confidence and respect for herself than I had as she grows up. I just hope we can work out a way of respecting each other and not turning everything into a battle!

hazeyjane · 25/01/2011 15:54

Thankyou for your replies.

It is so hard to see a way round it all. I know she is feeling insecure at the moment (she has been having lots of nightmares) and I have been trying to keep lots of routine to make her feel safe. She has been seeing a SALT (she has a stammer) and she advised having a special bag of toys that are just for her and me to play with whilst ds is asleep.

Her behaviour just seems to be getting worse and worse and I know that getting my dh to sweep in is probably a bad idea, it was the only solution that I could see at the time (I can't drive, we needed to meet dd1 and I am quite literally having a nervous breakdown!)

Having tried to drag her into a pushchair and strap her down, I know that I am physically unable to do this (she got out of straps and ran into the road) so I don't think I could do the reins thing, but I will give it a go. I have also done the 'we are going in your pyjamas' thing too, but the end result was that she went to school in her pyjamas, screaming all the way!

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 25/01/2011 16:09

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LeninGrad · 25/01/2011 16:13

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bibbitybobbityhat · 25/01/2011 16:18

I think that is a fabulous post containher.

Your dd is basically tantrumming, is she not hazey? I think we often think this is the specialism of 2 year olds but 3 to 4 year olds are basically capable of just as spectacular tantrums, ime.

You may not be able to control her behaviour (which is basically pure rage and anger) but you do NOT have to let it control you. You are the adult, you are in charge, you do call the shots (sometimes), give her some options (as containher says) but get her used to the idea that some things in her life are non-negotiable just because you say so. At 3.8 she's not too old to be sat in a puschair if she is refusing to walk somewhere.

LeninGrad · 25/01/2011 16:33

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LeninGrad · 25/01/2011 16:37

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MegBusset · 25/01/2011 17:19

I am struggling with DS1 (3.11) at the moment, having been quite an easygoing toddler his behaviour has become in turns defiant, obstinate, rude, sulky and bossy. Typically he is good as gold at preschool and usually good with DH, he seems to save the worst for me!

Tactics I am trying:

  • Wishes in fantasy as LG describes, sometimes distracts him enough to forget he's cross
  • Explaining (when he's calm) how it's nicer to be polite and happy
  • Change of scene/activity when he's being stroppy - will be easier when I can kick him out into the garden
  • Turning everything into a race eg who can put their shoes on first, who can eat their peas first
  • Zero tolerance of outright rudeness/aggression - removal of toy or TV/computer time, v occasionally removed to another room to calm down, and always made to apologise
  • One on one time - v tricky with DS2 but I do bedtime stories at end of the day with him on his own, he is usually lovely at this time
  • Hoping to god it's just a phase
  • Large glass of wine at the end of the day Grin
arista · 26/01/2011 16:08

Hi there I have a 3.5 year old that has been acting up as well. She has been pinching staff when put time out and from what I have been told she refuses to sit for story time and is being disruptive at nursery, she is always on the go and has also been pitching, kicking, screaming, punching other kid and they seem to think that something might be wrong with her like ocd, adhd or autism etc.. you name it. But the problem is that she is not like this at home she can be so sweet like kisses and cuddles. She likes to write, stories and crafts etc she is even starting to write abc etc she knows all shapes, abc and recognise all the letters and colours and the nursery think she is bright but I cannot understand why she behaves so badly there. Anybody with some advice would be so much appreciated. She has been going to some toddler group since 9 months and has never ever kicked pinched a child and she plays with a little girl same age as her nicely has never hit her. So why is she behaving this way there. I am tired of being told of every bad thing she gets up to. Please help

Bramshott · 27/01/2011 09:50

Racing is good for first DCs MegBusset, but not second and subsequent ones as they are always set up to lose unless you intervene and pin the older one down Hmm (not at you - at my DD1!)

hazeyjane · 27/01/2011 12:00

Thankyou to all the other replies (helloo Lenin!Smile). Sorry didn't manage to get onto Mumsnet for last few days, because things really did reach crisis point for a moment. It has been hard because I can see the reasons behind her behaviour - she is hugely unsettled by arrival of ds, we have moved house, dd1 started primary school so she lost her number 1 playmate, also I was in hospital for 8 days after having ds (who was very ill when he as born), and I know that she is still upset about this. I also have been struggling recently and the dr seems to think I have PND, and I have just started on antidepressants, so obviously I am not coping as well as I might with her behaviour.

So ater a long discussion with dh, we have decided to try and minimise all the battlepoints, so he is going to do the school run for a bit. I am trying to give more structure to the day, so that we have a quiet time with just me and dd2, reading stories and trying to help her wind down a bit.Yesterday she refused to get in a friend's car, and I tried the 'wishes as fantasy thing', it didn't work straight away, but it did seem to stop the situation from spiralling out of control.

I spoke to the doctor this morning, who has asked a HV to come round and see me to discuss other ways of dealing with it.

Whilst I wouldn't wish these battles on anyone, it is good to hear other people's experiences, and to know that I am not alone. It feels so isolating to be stood on a street being stared at, whilst one of the people you love more than anything in the world is screaming and raging at you.

Thankyou.

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hazeyjane · 31/01/2011 16:01

ok, I have shown dd2 that I am in charge, and that she is not 'calling the shots', I have spent the last hour trying to get her to leave the house to meet dd1 at her gymnastics lesson, I put her in the pushchair - she took off the straps, and threw herself onto the pavement and then tried to crawl into the road. It has ended with me saying she can't go to her friends house on Weds and she can't have the tv on today. She is in the room next to me shaking and screaming. I have had to ring a friend to take dd1 to gymnastics, I feel like absolute shit.

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neverright · 31/01/2011 16:15

HI Hazeyjane. Just wanted to reply, as I've been watching your thread, to say stay strong. I'm having a mare with ds too of similiar age. Letting them know who is really in control, whether we feel it or not, is really important. As someone once said to me letting them tantrum or cry won't kill them. She maybe not used to you being so forceful with her.

Deep breathes....

chocoholic · 31/01/2011 16:15

Is she at pre-school?
If so, could you speak to them to see what she is like there? They may have some ideas that might help you or they might be struggling too in which case they could request someone to come and assess her in case anything else is affecting her behavior.

GlynistheMenace · 31/01/2011 16:30

hello hazeyjane

the way your DD is 'behaving' is VERY much like mine is, she is 3.7yrs and i too have been at breaking point with her in certain situations. We've both shed a lot of tears over the past few months, but I think we're getting somewhere now.

There has been some fantastic advice given earlier on here, but wanted to add in what is really working with us.

I give her a 'choice' over most things, but they are options I provide. I cannot give her any leeway in starting an argument.

i.e. if she wants to go a different way home, we can go route a) past the church or route b) past the park but not via the woods. No reasoning, no explaining, just a basic choice.

I give her a choice over which she does 1st at bed time, her teeth or her face.

It sound rather 'victorian' and rather regimented and it probably is but it's making for a much calmer me and her.

good luck x

hazeyjane · 31/01/2011 16:41

Thankyou, she has calmed down now and is lying on the sofa just staring. I've rung my friend to say we won't be coming over on Weds, so that I won't back down.

I've spoken to preschool and they say they haven't really noticed any behaviour like this, so I'm sure that it is all to do with me and ds's arrival, which was all fairly traumatic.

I don't feel very in control, I feel rubbish, I miss my friends, because I have had to cancel so many things because dd won't leave the house, I'm missing dd1 doing gymnastics, dh has had to leave work early to go and meet her. I seem to spend half my time with her standing on the high street with her screaming at my feet, it's horrible.

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hazeyjane · 31/01/2011 16:44

Glynis, what does your dd do when you have to go a way she doesn't want to? This is where we have the worst problems, dd gets it into her head that we should be going a certain direction and will physically fight me to go 'her way'. Today's meltdown was because we were going to her friends house for pizza after gymnastics, she wants to do this on Friday, not today, and so wouldn't leave the house.

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GlynistheMenace · 31/01/2011 16:59

hi hazeyjane

you have to stay strong, I mean REALLY strong.

Give her only little bits of information about what you are doing and where you are going. This might appeal to her sense of adventure, tell her it's a surprise, a treat which won't be as good if she knows about it? Get her to guess where you're all going. She'll love being right!

I think, well with us, DD is trying hard to make sense of the world and her control of it. Don't look for things to 'blame' as such, we haven't got a younger sibling for her to be envious of and there seems lots of similarities between our DCs.

hth

Smile
monkeyflippers · 31/01/2011 17:02

I sympathise. When I was going through a difficult phase with mine I always made sure I had a double buggy with me so at least I could just pick her up, strap her in (screaming and going mental) and get on with what I needed to do.

noneshallsleep2 · 31/01/2011 17:05

Hazeyjane, Not much to add to the advice given here, but just wanted to give you support - you sound like you've done exactly the right thing. It isn't easy, but the alternative is to give your dd control of your (and the rest of the family's) life, and she's a bit young for that! Hope you get some RL support soon from HV.

One other thing - you sounded so sad when you said about "one of the people you love more than anything in the world is screaming and raging at you" - but please bear in mind that one reason she does this to you is that she loves and trusts you absolutely, so she feels able to express her frustrations, worries etc freely to you (via her tantrums)in a way she might not, say, at pre-school. Don't know if that helps (or makes sense!) but it's just a different way of looking at it.