Do babies learn to sleep if you don't 'train' them?

[Nausika]

Hi
My baby is 10 weeks old and unless in pram/sling, will only fall asleep and stay asleep in our arms. I can get her to fall asleep in rocking crib and bouncer but she always wakes up after 5 minutes really upset and will not fall back asleep on her own. Ditto if she falls asleep in my arms and I put her down. She sleeps in our bed during the night.

My attempts to change her sleeping habits have been tortuous and I am wondering whether it's worthwhile persevering. Won't she change her habits a few months down the road naturally when she is ready? Has anyone else been in the same situation? Did your babies grow out of it on their own? When does it happen?!?!

Dur - that should have said 'my DS is a tension increaser.

OP, looking again at what you said about naps, it sounds really normal for a baby that age. I think that once she starts developing a more predictable napping pattern in a few weeks it could become easier. Once the biological clock matures around 4 months, the natural 'sleepy' times of around 9am and 1pm make it easier for babies to go to sleep in the day as there's more of a biological drive behind sleep.

Oh AngelDog, her ?naps? are hopeless! Everything is hopeless and we are at the end of our tether! CarGirl has mentioned this retained Moro relex thing to me in the past. I do think there might be something in it, but hadn?t realised there was a straghtforward diagnostic test. I?ll go and search right now.

She has now woken up after DH dared to put her down in her lie back chair. She was crying on my shoulder and DH has now taken her again.

I should say I am hoping that when I return to work this week we might get a better pattern to DD?s naps. She?ll be in the car at around 8 until 9.30, again at 11.30-12 ish and again at 3.30-4.30 ish. I am very hopeful that this may help instil some kind of routine?

She sleeps well in her pushchair without crying to sleep. But she's rarely in her pushchair unless we're shopping - we live in a rural part and have to take the car everywhere. No pavements to walk on either.

Oh FGS, it is 11.30pm and DD is sat on her playmat, in her sleeping bag, "singing" and bouncing up and down. I had to put her down there as I got sick of the hair pulling when I was cuddling her, now wide awake after yet another feed.

It is 11.30pm FGS!!

The best advice anyone gave me was to try to get your baby to see their cot as a nice place. From day 1, I used to put my daughter down to sleep in her cot when she was awake but contented after her feed. I hung toy around the cot and as she got older she would play with these before falling asleep. I also used to sing to her - and still do. I never kept her in her cot if she was distressed. If she did get upset I would cuddle her and there were times early on when we slept together. She has slept through since about 3-4 months when she stopped needing a 2am feed and she has always been a brilliant sleeper. She really loves her bed - she even asked recently if she could take it on holiday with her! When she was a baby and overtired, she used to visibly relax when I put her in her cot. Mind you, all babies are different - my daughter is a mini me and I have always loved my sleep! Do what works best for you and your baby

Kiwiinkits,

I totally agree with you - and you put it very well.
My son and his wife have followed your way and have a 3 year old son who is very happy to go to bed - settles well and sleeps well.

My daughter and her husband still have children in their bed every night ( aged 3, 4 and 7) because my daughter felt awful leaving them on their own and would not follow a bedtime routine and stick to it.

STarting a routine early on ( I am not about sure 10 weeks?) and sticking to it seems to work.

To continue my hijack (sorry). We finally went to bed at 12.30am with DD still awake. She was crying in her cot - which adjoins my side of the bed - for a full hour and a half before I finally gave in, took her in my arms and she finally dropped off.

AngelDog (or anyone else?) - she went from being wide awake in her cot and happy to getting whingy to crying. After about an hour she went quiet and seemed to go to sleep, but 5 mins later she was crying again and so it continued, and escalated. It's the same story every time. And she woke DS. Ideas?

Is it wise to let her cry for a full hour if you are going to give in ?
I think it may be better to take her into your bed immediately if you are going to do that in the end ? You all suffered needlessly ?
In effect, you rewarded her for crying for an hour - so perhaps next time she will do the same because she will come to associate crying as something she has to do to get where she wants ?

I don't believe in 'giving in' but I know its difficult so I would rather a parent just put the child in their bed in the first place than let it cry for no point whatsoever.

gaelic, that being awake sounds famliar and it does sound like overtiredness to me. I can't post properly now as DS wants the computer (!) but I'll pop back later. Can you try to get her to nap before bedtime, but preferably not let her sleep past about 5pm? If you can get her to nap this afternoon, try to get her to sleep at bedtime around 2 hours after the last nap finishes.

IMO there's no point trying to do anything to improve the nights till you can get some progress on naps so I'd do whatever it takes to minimise crying and maximise sleeping in the mean time.

I find once DS is up and reset to Awake at night, it's always 1.5 hours before he gets drowsy again. Apparently there's some biological basis to this - an 'activity cycle' is usually around 90 mins. So once it's clear he's wide awake I just cuddle him / let him roam around / whatever till the 90 mins is up, then I'll cuddle/rock/feed him back to sleep.

I'll pop back later with more suggestions & info.

Babies will sleep through the night when they are ready. Follow your instincts and you won't go far wrong.

No Davsmum, it probably wasn't wise. Want to come and try? I am at the end of my tether here.

I did not exactly "let her cry". She was next to me in her bedside cot. I was stroking her head, holding her hand, talking to her. She seemd to need that short cuddle to finally drop off. Then she slept OK for 4 hours with only one short spell of crying - she self settled - then we both slept in til 11, with a couple of feeds.

As a matter of fact I believe she would still have cried no matter what. This was what I was saying to AngelDog yesterday. I feel after last night I have a better handle on what the issues are. In fact I said to DH that once she gets to the stage where she's clearly trying to go to sleep, then I think we need to cuddle her to help her over that last hurdle. But before then cuddling makes no difference any more. I did not take her into our bed - giving in - as you put it, I leant over a bit more and cuddled her for a few minutes until I was sure she was asleep, then left her in her cot.

DS was sleeping in his own room by 6 months, and sleeping through. DD is something else and I'd never have believed it if I wasn't experiencing it.

I'm quite upset by the implications in your post actually Davsmum. Have you ever had a baby that will not be put down, will not sleep, cries half the day and feeds half the night. Have you?

Ah I just saw your other post on the thread. I am no longer upset. You have never been in this situation so your opinion is of no concern to me.

Me again. We had real problems with overtiredness back in the days when DS used to be a poor napper. (Note the past tense & take heart. :))

He?d often be awake all evening until late. At around 6 months, he?d wake maybe 2 or 3 times a night. During a week?s holiday when naps were completely hit & miss (often miss) he got seriously overtired and started waking 6 or 7 times a night and had to be fed back to sleep each time, and was up for 1.5 hours at least every other night, which carried on for several weeks afterwards. He?d not nap in the pushchair, car or sling, and would only feed to sleep, and I couldn?t put him down without him waking and refusing to go back off.

I managed to sort his night time sleep at around 7 months using some NCSS / PUPD ideas ? after that, he?d wake briefly 45 mins after going to sleep, and then once for a feed around 4am. It only worked due to getting the naps right first though.

I had a week where I did nothing but get him to nap. He?d feed to sleep and I?d sit with him on my lap. Rather than trying to follow his tired signs, I tried for naps at 9am and 1pm (he woke at 6.30am) which seemed to suit him. After he?d had several days of better naps, I was able to put him down in the cot once he was asleep and pat him when he twitched (he woke otherwise). Within a few days I didn?t need to pat him any more. The night-time improvement was much faster than I expected ? as soon as he was having a morning nap and a long lunchtime one, the long periods awake at night disappeared.

I think the effect of overtiredness is similar to CarGirl?s DD?s problem ? the longer babies are awake, the more stress hormone they produce. Naps bring down the cortisol levels but if they don?t nap, the body produces adrenaline to keep them going. Unfortunately it makes them fight going to sleep, wake more frequently (often at the end of every sleep cycle), be wide awake in the middle of the night and want to be up early in the morning.

At 7 months I reckon your DD probably needs 3 naps a day. Especially if she?s overtired, she probably can?t be awake much more than 2 hours before needing another nap. It?s worth trying to focus on getting her to take the first nap - it?s supposed to be easiest to fall asleep for this one as they?re relatively better rested after the night. I?m sure you will have to hold onto her to get her to stay asleep but if there?s any way you can do that, it?ll be worth it IMO.

Having a consistent wake-up time helps. Exposure to daylight on waking helps set their biological clock. Trying for naps at relatively consistent times often helps too.

The times when you?re likely to be in the car sound like good nap times to start with. Around 9am and around 1pm are times of the day when it?s easiet for babies to fall asleep & stay asleep. It?s more important to watch your baby?s signs & avoid overtiredness than to get them sleeping at the ?right? time though. If a nap is missed, it?s best to keep your baby awake and go to the next sleep period (day or night) but make it a bit earlier.

If she does manage to sleep in the car, that?d be ideal as babies learn to go to sleep most easily when you use the same method to get them to sleep for all naps.

The earlier the bedtime the better for an easily overtired baby. If having a late afternoon nap means that bedtime is late (later than 8pm, say) then ditch that nap and bring bedtime forward by as much as necessary. In general, an earlier bedtime often means a better night?s sleep. Some books recommend bedtimes as early as 6pm if your baby is able to sleep then.

Dunno if any of that helps. If I think of anything else, I?ll pop back.

I'm back already. :)

One other thing that helped me was to have a song I used as a sleep association. I sang it to DS when he was drowsy and going to sleep (usually when feeding at night as I didn't dare mess with getting him to sleep for naps). You can then sing it when they're tired and you're trying to get them to sleep as it helps them relax. I think it takes 3-5 days for them to make the drowsy association.

When I did that, I was rocking DS to sleep. Before I used the music he would be trying to climb up my chest and leap off my lap. Once I'd established the 'sleepy music', when I started singing it, he'd lie his head on my chest and relax, even if it still took a while to actually rock him to sleep.

Thanks for all that AngelDog. I was thinking about this some more, and DD is actually napping at the moment, in DH's arms - which pees him off because he's stuck but at least she's sleeping. But there is no routine - we really have lost the plot.

I will see how it goes with the new routine that we'll have from Thursday. If there's nothing doing after a wekk or so I am going to ring a cranial osteopath as a first step, and while I'm there ask about CarGirl's problem (as that is worrying me now).

She's wide awake now, unsurprisingly, just starting a tired whinge after an hour's shuffling around.

One thing I remember from NCSS that worked is to from as early as possible to start saying 'hush' or 'go to sleep' or 'night night' or sing lullabies when they ARE relaxed and sleeping already and not when they are stressed or crying IYSWIM. That way they will associate it with being sleepy / relaxed rather than thinking of it as an instruction when they are having trouble going to sleep.

Sort of Pavlov's Dog.

I think you're right, gaelic, in that before your DD gets to the point where she's able to go back to sleep cuddling (or whatever) doesn't help.

When DS first started being awake for 1.5 hours, I'd sit in the chair and rock him for all 90 mins. He cried a lot, mainly because he didn't really want to be rocked at that stage, but I figured that it was sort of soothing and at least he knew that I was there with him, even if he wasn't very happy. Since I worked out that it was always 90 mins I allow myself to pretend to doze, while he roams around, and cuddle / talk / pat / whatever him when he gets upset.

I've found it much easier now I understand that pattern as once it's clear he's wide awake, it takes away all the stress of trying to get him back off for an hour and a half.

The other thing I find helps DS settle when I'm really struggling to put him down after getting him back to sleep at night is to lie on my back and let him sleep face down on my chest. I'd never have thought that I'd be able to sleep on my back, let alone with a 26lb baby on my front, but it's actually quite restful. :) Sometimes I intend to roll him off onto the bed once he's asleep, but I fall asleep before I can do it. He's never fallen off.

What time have her naps been today, gaelic (& wake up & bedtime)?

I ask because I notice her long spell awake is relatively early in the night. DS usually does it some time from about 2am, although it can be as early as 11am or as late as 5am. I wonder whether she's thinking that bedtime is actually the start of a nap, which is why she's then reset to 'awake'? I know quite a lot of babies who did this during the 4 month sleep regression.

Erm, well today was a little unusual in that we slept in together until 11am - we both have the cold which isn't helping. DH tells me she slept in his arms from around 3pm until around 4.30pm (I was out food shopping). I got her bathed and ready for bed at 7pm, after putting DS to bed. She had a feed and slept on me for about half an hour. Then she woke up and she's been awake ever since.

I meant to say, yes AngelDog she absolutely thinks bedtime is the start of a nap. I described it in just this way to a friend who is having the same problems with her DS. She has an evening nap, followed by a wide awake period, followed by a further nap, another wide awake period, and then she's finally ready to sleep any time from midnight to 1.30 am.

Nausika - when you described how your baby would only sleep in a sling and preferably if you were walking - it really took me back. I was in that situation with dd. When she was about 5 months old I got an Amby and gradually over about two weeks managed to get her to nap in that, gradually naps got longer.

Over time what they will sleep through will change. Our dd loved to sleep in the car but would wake up if we stopped (cue lots of driving round the countryside!). When she got to about 2/3 she started to stay asleep once we stopped. Same with the pushchair, but the staying asleep when it stopped was a different age - earlier. In the end I had a pushchair I used in the house, and she napped in that when she grew out of the Amby. And eventually I managed to get her to nap on her bed - when she was about 3!

We co-slept as well. DD 4 is now in a bed next to our bed, but other co-sleepers I know have had their children in their own bed/room much earlier. They vary.

What I would say is that don't think that any set of "rules" your baby has, doesn't mean she will always be like that. It is worth trying things that maybe didn't work a few months ago.

I think the late get-up time might be at least partly responsible for that today, gaelic - most babies' day will be roughly 12 hours' long (give or take an hour or two), so a sleep at 7pm counts as a late afternoon nap.

I'm not sure I've read much about this problem but I'll have a check in the books I've got.

I think the way to fix this is to get up around 7am (ish) and do naps around 9am (ish) and lunchtime, to fit in with the natural circadian rhythms, and ideally get her into daylight outdoors asap on waking. I also make sure I keep it dark when DS is awake at night-time so that helps his body know that it should be nighttime, not post-nap awake time.

Certainly the days I made DS get up at his 'usual' time even after going to bed late and being up in the night seemed to help. But it's hideous after you've been awake half the night, and when he's been up in the night recently I've been sleeping through 4 alarms and waking 2 hours after the usual get-up time.

When she naps, are they short ones? If she's only sleeping a shorter time, she's probably trying to make up the same amount of nap time over more naps. So rather than doing, say 45 mins, 1.5 hours, 45 mins, she'd be trying to do 4 x 45 mins naps which then makes the last nap happen around bedtime.

You talk sense. I think we have really delayed sorting this out because we DH and I are just too god damned knackered. Whatever gets us the most sleep/peace is what we've done. Plus having DD crying in the bedroom tends to wake DS - it's so much harder with two for that reason.

From Thursday I will have to be up at 7 at the latest to go to work. There will be no choice. I'll keep you posted.