Do babies learn to sleep if you don't 'train' them?

[Nausika]

Hi
My baby is 10 weeks old and unless in pram/sling, will only fall asleep and stay asleep in our arms. I can get her to fall asleep in rocking crib and bouncer but she always wakes up after 5 minutes really upset and will not fall back asleep on her own. Ditto if she falls asleep in my arms and I put her down. She sleeps in our bed during the night.

My attempts to change her sleeping habits have been tortuous and I am wondering whether it's worthwhile persevering. Won't she change her habits a few months down the road naturally when she is ready? Has anyone else been in the same situation? Did your babies grow out of it on their own? When does it happen?!?!

I agree with AngelDog. I have a consistent nighttime routine and my baby sleepings from 8pm until 5-5.45am most nights and he is 8 1/2 weeks old. I do feed him to sleep though just to make him dozy. I really don't see what the issue is with that? I myself like a cup of tea or hot milk or some cereal before I go to bed to make me sleepy. It's natural that a full stomach makes you sleepy. It doesn't mean the baby won't continue to sleep through (in my limited experience).

And OP - I would NOT recommend the Baby Whisperer Book at all. But you can see my other post on that. It did my head in. I tried her approach and left my baby to cry and he kept crying and crying, getting hysterical. I cannot for the like of me see how that is a good thing. I thought more recent researched indicated that babies whose needs are met (rather than being left to cry) are more secure. I am not talking about little settling cries, but proper crying.

I meant to add welcome to MN, Kiwi. :)

I agree with emmyloo2 on the poor opinion of the Baby Whisperer, but following her ideas of looking for 'tired signs' led to my DS getting hideously overtired and getting to the point where he couldn't sleep at all except in the sling. He didn't start showing reliable tired signs till around 4 months, IIRC. She says a lot of things that babies 'should' do, but IME no-one's told the babies.

Yes, emmyloo2, I've always fed to sleep at bedtime - completely to sleep, not just to dozy, and at 7 months DS was sleeping about 8pm - 4am, waking for a quick feed & then straight back off till 6.30am. So, OP, helping your baby to sleep doesn't necessarily mean they keep waking all the time.

Kiwi I think if that works for you then great, but I also think it means you have a baby it works for iyswim. If I did that it would lead to out and out hysteria (from me and ds ).

Thanks for posting Kiwiinkits, it's great to have a different perspective, i am totally fascinated at the moment by how people put their babies to sleep!

I mentioned that our baby sleeps in our bed to give the full picture but night-time is when she does her best sleeping - she falls asleep at 8pm with the least fuss of the day and wants to be awake around 7am. She wakes 2-4 times to feed but usually falls asleep on her own, if not, 5am is usually the tricky time - so i think we have been v lucky with nights.

What i'm finding v challenging is day naps and having to be on my feet for each one - holding, sling wearing, pram pushing. Her sense of motion is so fine that she can distinguish between rocking sitting down (unacceptable), rocking standing still (mildly acceptable) and rocking while walking (even better). After falling asleep, she often wakes up distressed if i sit down, let alone put her down, so i have to go through the whole process again - by the end of the day I am in agony!

The routine you describe doesn't sound unsympathetic at all and I would have thought most mums would do something like that if they could. What I consider 'training' is how you persevere if the baby doesn't take to being put down (and some do) and cries properly. What do you do then that isn't immensely distressing and does it really work? Is it worth it?

Sleep training for tiny babies is to meet the needs of the parents, not the needs of the babies, who all learn to sleep through in their own good time if given the chance (a bit like weaning off the breast/sleeping in their own bed/crawling/walking).

If you can afford to indulge your baby and let it sleep/be cuddled according to its own needs, you will be setting your child up for a very secure existence in which, crucially, discipline will be easy for you to impose upon your child when the time comes for it to be important because your child will trust you so much.

For us, helping (feeding!) DS to sleep did mean a lot of night time wakings (really excessive - every 45 minutes or so). I was exhausted and felt that he really wasn't getting the rest he needed either. Between about 7 and 10 months we worked through a lot of the ideas in the "No Cry Sleep Solution", and they helped hugely - things like consistent nap times, and gradual retreat to get him to self settle. He wouldn't tolerate us actually leaving the room, but after a while would fall asleep with me sitting in a chair in his room, and around that point his sleeping massively improved - down to about 1 wake-up a night. At some point (about 16 months?) he became happy for us to just pop him in his cot and walk out, and now at 2.5 he is a fantastic little sleeper - 13 hours a night, and we only ever hear from him if he's ill. So to answer your question, although I don't think strict "sleep training" is a good thing, if you find (when your baby is a lot older - 10 weeks is tiny) that sleeping is still not good, a gentle nudge in the right direction might help without being too traumatic.

Nausika you're current routine sounds very similar to mine my ds is 6mo. I think that really it is a question of what is important to you and also what your baby seems to need. For me with my first, who was a terrible sleeper it was important to have as much freedom as possible and as much night-time sleep as possible, so we didn't have a routine, we co-slept, she fed to sleep. Co-sleeping maximised my sleep and not having a routine meant that we could go out with her and she was very good at sleeping anywhere. I know people who have strict routines and that suits them and there family best, often their children are better sleepers who become very distressed when over tired my dd never seemed bothered by late nights. Now I have my second we have a nap routine, because he seems happier with this, we have set bedtimes for both of them, because it suits us better, evenings are precious baby free time.

I have been trying to get DD to settle sleep well for weeks (she is 11 weeks). She is 11 weeks, my method is similar to Kiwis. She sounds very much like yours in the respect that she has always known night and day and has always settled well for night feeds. She now only wakes once around 5 or goes through to 6ish or almost 7. I prefer when she wakes at 5am really as she then tends to go back to sleep until 8am and I really, really hate being up before 7am! She took a while to self settle in the evenings (I have never left her to cry, but have left her to grumble for a minute) but now goes to sleep quite happily at 7pm.

But in the day she just can't do it, so I guess she is just not ready yet. She will sometimes sleep for 40 mins or so in her basket, but it is not a given . I tend to try for at least one day time nap in her basket and I keep re settling her for at least an hour so she gets the idea. But I also try and make sure I get at least one really good walk in the pram every day so she should get an hour or two that way and if all that fails then I try to get her to sleep on me for a bit. Basically, unless I am out and about all day her day time sleep is really difficult and as I have another child that's not really often possible.

In answer to the OP. Do you think they stayed awake the whole time they were in the womb?

How come baby is allowed to control their own sleep patterns then but suddenly we have to tell them?

Babies are social beings. When they discover that people 'do' this or people 'do' the other, they tune in and copy. It takes them a while to get it and in any case their tummies are teeny and can't last a long sleep period without food, but they figure it out. Not to mention the hormonal help they get when the sun goes down/comes up.

You can support this learning with quiet evenings and cues about when bedtime is going to happen, but you don't need to drill it into them.

hth

Excuse typos please, DD is in the middle of a horrible off and on nursing strike that has totally buggered up all our sleep!

My mum is totally anti-sleep training and routines and fed/cuddled/rocked to sleep and all her babies were sleeping well by 12 months (although apparently I always woke at 5.45am until I was about 7 ).

I am a bit more routiney than her (but still quite gentle) and from about 4 months started gradually "helping" ds fall asleep less and less rather than training. He's almost 6 months old now and is a reasonable sleeper, self-settles 75% of the time and sleeps 11pm-6.30pm 50% of the time I'd say. Good enough for me!

Nausika i've been having similar concerns at 11 weeks. i haven't tried any training, just beaten myself up mentally that i am doing 'the wrong thing' by letting him mostly sleep on me in the day. I had a few comments from friends (all mums themselves) who said "aaahhh appreciate these times as they won't last forever". But the one "ha you're a fool" comment is the one that stays in my mind...typical.

Anyway i'm just going to let him do that if thats what he wants. He's so tiny, really, and it is so lovely to snuggle with him. i'll be back at work in 6 months and will wish i was at home cuddling a baby all day instead.

Bonsoir i like to think that will be true; i like ds to feel safe and secure at this young age and this is the way i can do that for him.

Btw i'm not casting aspersions on sleep training but i think there's a lot of pressure on new parents to 'get it right' and for a lot of families going with the flow will work best.

Books and mumsnet have their place but so does doing what you and your baby want.

missdt, i know what you mean, i love holding her too and if i could wear the sling as much as she wants me to, without feeling as if i'm about to have a hernia, personally i would totally go with the flow because it makes life so much easier and baby happier.

I guess my bad luck is that, probably because i suffered a really bad tear during labour, i'm not physically fit enough! I get really sharp shooting pains... So if there was a way to teach her to sleep in her bouncer for some of her naps, or just to teach her to stay asleep once i've put her down, I would be really interested -- but i'm becoming convinced that it's not possible to teach her that, if she's not ready....

hmm, i just realized how contradictory i sound because earlier i said that i didn't want to carry on with my attempts to teach her how to self-soothe and about the pressure i felt from others. I guess what i mean is i don't want to carry on when it's so distressing, and when there seems to be so little promise of success anyway - and the pressure from others does make me insecure sometimes about our whole approach - but nonetheless, because of the discomfort of constant carrying, I would be interested to hear if other people have managed to teach their babies this particular skill and how they did it.

Sorry, i think my brain is woolly, i don't know how much sense that makes!

Ds, 2.3, sleeps well now, down at seven ish awake seven ish. I held him almost all the time when baby, didn't leave him to cry, got up with him when wakeful. So no training there. Completely opposite with dd - in basket upstairs almost from birth, not controlled crying but definitely more "you will sleep". Don't think much different in the end, except when ds baby spent less time running up and down stairs. If there's not a problem, by which I mean your family is coping, then don't worry. If you become exhausted, look into strategies.

I am with KIWIINKITS ! As night nanny/maternity nurse/sleep trainer in my life B.C I had my diary FULL to rescue parents from the grips of never ending sleep deprevation, rocking 4 year olds in their arms, trying to kick 8 year olds out of there beds etc etc.These were parents STILL waiting for their 'babies' to learn to sleep alone!
Some babies DO naturally slip into a decent enough routine, with just a bit of gentle persuasion from mum, but the majority dont, and they need to be guided to sleep in ways other than in arms, on a bottle, on a boob etc.
One of my own children slept through from 9pm until 7 am at 6 weeks, and continued to increase night time sleeps so at 3 months she slept 7-7 with no feeding. However, I did implement a structured feeding/sleeping routine in the day. My other children slept through from 7pm-7am by 4 months with no feeds. I wasn't a prisoner in my home, I went out and about, my children had some sleeps in my arms, but at night, they fell asleep alone. As a maternity nurse most babies I looked after and whos' parents continued with a basic feeding /sleeping routine had babies who slept from 7-7 with an 11pm night feed from 3 months.
Lost of perents who think it is too young get a baby used to sleeping alone will be parents of babies/toddlers and children who have not had a full night sleep for months/years. Many of them accept this as a way of life, but if you want to have an unbroken nights sleep before your baby turns 1year, I would suggest you think more about how and when you baby sleeps.

Me again. I see I created a bit of controversy!

To answer your question, if your baby is upset when you lie her down in her swaddle and she is starting to 'work herself up', perhaps you can try the 'shhh pat' method. Basically, you keep her lying down in her cot or basket (don't pick up unless you're sure it's gas) and turn her over slightly so that you can lightly pat her bottom. Then, while rhythmically patting her bottom, go "shhhh shhhh shhhh". This works as a calming technique because a baby can only concentrate on one thing at once. They start concentrating on your shhhh and your pats and forget what they were crying about. Once they have settled, then slow your shhhh's down until they sound sort of like someone snoring. Or like the sea lightly lapping on the shore. Slowly make your shhh's quieter and quieter. Then when she's dozing WALK OUT OF THE ROOM.

BTW my trick with a dummy is when you put it in, tap it 10 or so times lightly. This works because it mimics the slight pulsing that happens when your let-down reflex in your boobs starts when you begin feeding.

The other thing is, I've found a dark room really helps. Is the baby's room dark enough?

ooooh and one other thing I had to say. Your baby obviously loves motion and warmth. I used a Nature's Sway hammock (I think you have Amby Nest or something like that in the UK) instead of a bassinet and it was BRILLIANT. If you're at your wits end, perhaps you could try a hammock? They're lovely and snug and warm and nesty.

When you're around again AngelDog I have another question! After reading your link, I actually can't work out if DD is a baby who needs to fuss to sleep or one where crying increases tension. She seems to be a combination. We have never managed to put her down and fuss to sleep - she might seem to quiet down but within half a minute it all starts again and eventually escalates to fever pitch. And yet she will frequently still fuss and scream when being cuddled to sleep. And in her car seat she frequently screams for a few minutes before dropping off. Is she the worst of both?!

Hi Nausika,
The way I see it is, whatever works for your baby and you is best.

I cuddled my baby to sleep and then put her in her moses basket for 4 months, then she moved into her room, and I would go to her whenever she cried, and she got very used to me being there and having a feed, which meant she kept waking up 3-4 times at night.

Initially, I felt super comfortable with this, it was quite flattering that she loved spending her hours with me, and it felt easier to do this than to put her through any 'training' and I was happy to continue... my DH and I talked about sleep training (which incidentally, our mums didn't do with us) but couldn't bring ourselves to do it.

but then one night when she was 7 months old, at 2 in the morning, it just seemed to make sense- she'd had both boobs twice, had a clean nappy, and would sleep in my arms, but instantly wake up as soon as I tired to put her down, and it seemed to me that she wasn't really in a properly deep, restful sleep, if she could rouse that easily and right then we started letting her Cry It Out, with my husband popping in every few minutes to reassure her.

It took an hour and a half the first night, and at one point we were all 3 crying.

After 4 nights she was sleeping through. Still loved us in the morning, and really was full of beans and raring to go the next day.

Maybe becasue I was going back to work at 9 months, we were anxious about our own routine as well as hers, but it really worked well for us, and are all a lot more rested for it.

all babies are different, and you'll know what'll work for you. Try not to listen to the inlaws. Because they care, they say it with a lot of passion, but it isn't for them to decide.

I would never have been able to leave my baby to cry when she was 10 weeks, and probably not at 6 and a half months either, but now i'm glad that we did.

There are no rules. There ARE strong opinions on either side. Read as much as you can (lots on mumsnet!!) and do what feels right. That will never be wrong.

Good luck!!

Hi Nausika just thought I'd throw my tuppence worth in. I spent AGES trying to get DD to sleep without feeding/in pram/in sling because I thought that was what you were meant to do (whilst DD cried and I was worrying/reading/researching A LOT, and driving DP mad).

But after a while, 6 months ish, I admitted defeat and gave up and just fed her to sleep when the need arose, whilst fretting the rod for my own back would appear at the door .

At 10 months she was sleeping through, day sleeps had settled into a pattern (by themselves) and soon after I gave up BF (around 14 months) I just put her in the cot with a bottle of warm milk and hey presto. Now at 21 months she goes to sleep in the cot during the day with no bottle and has slept through 7pm-7.30am no bothers all along.

The one thing we did do which I think is good for all concerned is get into a nice bedtime routine - bath, story, feed, bed. We started that around 3 months and I even managed to train DP to do most of it, except the BFing .

I think they sort themselves out in their own time. If I did it again I'd feed to sleep without thinking about it and just go with the flow. And probably enjoy the whole thing so much better.

I think naps are often the key to how well (or otherwise) babies sleep at night. Regular naps don't really get going for most babies till 3/4/5 months, as it needs their biological clocks to mature more. It's usually harder for babies to fall asleep for naps as there's a strong biological urge to sleep at night, which isn't present in the day. I know quite a lot of babies who self-settle happily at night (either spontaneously or whose parents did CC),but who simply cannot do so in the day, no matter how much CC their parents try. So, OP, I really wouldn't worry about daytime sleep habits.

Again, know your baby. My DS hated shush pat in the early days and it just wound him up even more. Now it helps but only as long as I've rocked/fed him virtually to sleep first - if I don't do that, his crying still escalates. But it works for other babies - you just have to realise that there are no techniques that work for all babies.

Few babies are biologically capable of 'self-soothing' before about 3 months or so, as their nervous systems etc are still so undeveloped. That's why no 'sleep encouragement / training' method is recommended before 3 months, and most aren't recommended before 6 months.

Hmm, gaelicsheep, what are your DD's naps like? It sounds to me like she's a tension releaser by the car seat / screaming while being cuddled. But I know that some tension releasers can act sort-of like tension increasers if they're overtired. Even Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child suggests not letting overtired / sleep deprived babies cry for long periods to teach them to 'self-soothe' as the overtiredness raises cortisone and adrenaline levels, which makes it harder for them to fall asleep.

On the other hand, the car thing could be because it isn't soothing enough. My DS is a tension releaser and always used to cry (sometimes scream) before dropping off in the car (if he did drop off, that is). Similarly, the pram didn't use to work unless you were on cobbles. He drops off much more easily now though at 13 months.

On the issue of waking up when you put her down - I assume she's always done this? I've not heard of babies older than 3 months or so going straight into active sleep, but I'm no expert on it.

CarGirl's DD had something similar, which was due to a retained Moro reflex which meant she had too much adrenaline in her system to be able to sleep. (IIRC she was awake for long periods at night too.) Apparently the diagnostic test for this is really simple - to do with how their eyes dilate. If you search for CarGirl's posts on Moro reflex on Talk, you'll find more info and some links.

DS did a similar waking when put down when he was younger, but he seemed to grow out of it. He does still do it in the run up to developmental spurts, and then has to be cuddled for maybe 10 mins to get him to stay asleep. (I know quite a few other babies the same.) For naps, I'd feed him to sleep, then sit by the cot and pat him as often as he twitched, which seemed to keep him asleep. After a few days he got the hang of staying asleep without help. But I don't think your DD is likely to be working on a spurt - they're at 26 and 37 weeks so she'd be bang in the middle.

Does she sleep in the pram? I seem to remember from a previous thread of yours that the sling isn't any good.