Frustrated & explosive 4yo- do we need a professional? (long!)

[Sops]

DS is 4y8m and he has definite anger management issues which we are trying to address but seem to be getting more and more problematic.
We are in general a very happy, contented family. DD (6) is very well behaved and gets glowing reports from school-so our parenting skills can't be completely inadequate. But still ds seems to blow up or lash out at the least little frustration. If we ask him to do anything that he doesn't want to do he grunts and shouts and calls us names, hits, throws things, says he's going to kill us.

We practise all the positive parenting we can, praising for every little step in the right direction. We've tried naughty steps and time out and reward charts ad nauseam. They all seem to further exacerbate the behaviour and certainly do not prevent further outbursts.
His behaviour at school was causing problems but after a meeting with the teacher (ds also present) he has stopped hitting. However, he
still struggles to do as he is told and to sit quietly at carpet time without distracting the other children.

It can't be anything on the autistic spectrum as he doesn't tick any of the checklist boxes. In fact he's a very social child, has good language skills, loves books and toys, has a vivid imagination and great sense of humour.

I'm concerned that we need to get a grip on this problem sooner rather than later as he will soon be able to inflict real damage to people and objects. We are pretty much at a loss as to what to do now.
Should we get him seen by a professional and if so, what kind of professional?

Sounds similar to the issues I'm having (see my thread, 4 year old is driving us to despair).

Our health visitor suggested he had ADHD but I don't think he has because he can be good, can sit still, does listen when he wants, is very sociable etc, etc, but I'm hoping as others have suggested its just a phase or a surge of testosterone that affects boys of 4/5.
I've just ordered a book by Steve Biddolph - called raising boys, which addresses the testosterone surge to see if it helps.
Your not on your own with this (as my friends keep telling me), hang in there! x

I would recommend the Christopher Green book on ADHD - (he wrote the Toddler Taming book)

we didn't think our son had ADHD until we recognised so many of his behaviours in this book

I would definitely ask for a paediatrician referral from your GP - at least you could then rule things out or get the help you and your DS need

Like alison72 I have thought that it couldn't be adhd as he can be good, can sit still, plays very well on his own and with adults and often with other children too.
He was the easiest baby in the world, and has always been very sociable, interactive and until about a year ago very pliable. He never even had the 'terrible twos'.
However, I've done two checklists for autistic spectrum and adhd just now. It does seem possible that he might be.
That's a bit scary really. I don't know anything about it at all.
His teacher hasn't suggested that it might be adhd should I speak to her first or just go to my GP?

I've had a similar thing with my 4 year old. We've got a tent in our family-room which has been re-named the "calm-down tent." The idea is that he can take himself off there when he feels angry or out-of-control. Of course, he finds it difficult to verbalise this but when I recognise the build-up to the angry behaviour I ask him if he needs to go there.

I wouldn't say it has totally solved the problem but I think it has made a difference. He does take himself off there and I sometimes find him in there reading a book. I keep his younger brother out of there too. I don't send him there as a punishment, but I suggest that he goes there for reflection.

I'm doing lots of positive praise for good behaviour, and I talk to him about how the rest of us feel when he kicks off. I've given up arguing with him; he has a very logical mind and has an answer for everything!

I'm hoping school in September will help!

Sounds just like my four year old, TBH, and he's my 'normal' one. Ds1 is the one with the bhavioral problems, ds2 is simply defiant.

I plonk him in his bedroom and tell him to come out when he feels nice again. If necessary, I hold the door closed for a few minutes (screaming and kicking the door does not equal 'feel nice' imho)

I wouldn't bother with reward charts, to be honest. ALl the do in this house is cause obsession about rewards, which I don't like. Society won't reward a person for being normal, so they shouldn't expect it. It WILL sanction for bed behavior though.

Has anyone checked for ADD (like ADHD but woithout the bouncing off walls ?)

We are currently waiting for testing for this ....

Boys are very different to girls so don't compare him too much to your DD.

What do you do when he kicks off at home?

Is there any other tension at home that he could be reacting to- or outside home but in your immediate circle?

Is he bored at school? How do you find his teacher? What does he say about school?

Remember that in some countries children don't start school until 6 or even 7 and there is reason for this (!).

Thanks for replying everyone, I'm feeling a bit scared at all this- and I was supposed to be having an early night too!
We have tried the calm down space thing but he usually kicks off too fast for it to be of real effect so won't get himself there.
We have done time out in his room- result, meltdown but no noticable effect on subsequent behaviour. Reward charts do encourage fixation on end reward and therefore not getting a sticker results in a meltdown and getting a sticker without an instant reward results in meltdown too!
There is no tension at all at home or in our wider circle. Most of the time he is affectionate, expressive happy little thing. He sleeps well, eats a really good diet,
He is happy enough to go to school. Tells us all about it when he gets home (what they played in the playground, what story they had, what they did in PE etc etc) but is reluctant to do his reading book (although he has learnt all his sounds and can blend well) as he says school books are boring and don't tell him anything he wants to know.
Also, he is increasingly reluctant to even pick up a pen or pencil- let alone start drawing or writing.
Recently he has said that his 'brain is bad, and doesn't work properly'. But to me he seems at least as bright as his sister (sometimes chips in with answers to questions aimed at her) and her teacher says she is very bright. I'm sure there is no one telling him negative things about his 'brain' at school as they seem totally lovely so i don't know where he's got that idea from.
At nursery school, the head teacher said he was a bright child and was destined to be a leader and he had a very strong personality.
At school his teacher says that he has 'anger management issues' but that she thinks he has made some good progress over the last term.
I'm confused!

he's four, they often hav anger management issues, it comes of being four.

Do they have a nurture group in your school? Itactually helped ds2 control his temper more than i thought it would.

Hi Sops, I have a 5yr old DS and he was a real handful when he was smaller. Turns out he is probably on the autistic spectrum albeit very marginally. However, on my trails of research I have come across ODD, which stands for oppositional defiance disorder. Might be worth googling to see if any of it describes your little man.

I highly doubt it does but its another thing that maybe worth crossing off your list. HTH Hopefully this phase will finish fast for all your sakes!

ULP! Difficult in focussing, frustration and anger at inane and pointless restrictions on behavioiur, full concentration and engagement with issues of interest, and a realisation that 'his brain is bad' i.e he is aware that others see what he see as his essential self as a 'problem'.

these are all issues i had when growing up, and they were because I was very intelligent, (eg I could read publishers notes (yes really!) at age 3. Teachers in primary schools are very concerned with control, teaching good behaviour and discipline and will get very freaked out by intelligence, so this could very much be the problem. The short attention span, the reading immediately your agenda on telling him to go and reflect or whatever comes from being clever, but not having the maturity to not want instant stimulation - I suggest you look into this seriously before going down the (too easy these days) adhd/aspergers/autism/problem route.

also catch this early - one reason I felt 'wrong' at school is that whilst everyone else was struggling to understand and getting fruistrated, I was stuggling to deliberately not understand so that I could fit in, and I kept getting angry that I couldn't unlearn issues I 'just knew'. The fact that 'books don't tell him anything' should be a clue -primary education is all about repetition and slow sinking in - eg 'put that away, those things go away, what happens with these things? they go away don't they' eveey time. If your son gets it the first time, this constant repetition of simple and easily understood concepts will... if you'll excuse me.. do his fucking head in... and he won't understand why after a while he will switch off, not take anything in, and then be slower than his peers, when he is clearly brighter (cf hare and the tortoise for a physical analogy of this mental problem)

this alienation, feeling of difference,and comments about brain not working because advanced thinking blocks basic understanding is easily addressed by gifted programmes and effective teaching - so well worth the effort in investigation.

Oh yes, I was accused of the 70s version of ODD as well - I was told off for saying 'no I won't obey teacher if teacher tells me to do something wrong' they said 'well you would obey your parents won't you?' I said 'no not if they tell me to do something wrong'. One teacher went ballistic and gave me detention and argued with me every class, another (enlightened) wrote a letter to my parents expressing concern that someone so easily able to debate issues of morality (albeit with a yes/no answer) so early might not be able to fit in with his peers and would frustrate teachers.

OOps I confused your story with mine there! - My teacher expressed concern that I might not be able to fit in with my peers - and she was right - and I meant to say so that might explain why he is not fitting in with his peers.. sorry!

I remember being withdrawn from assembly because the vicar used to ask us if we had any questions - and oh, boy, I had plenty.

Would love it if it was short-lived but already been going on for a good year now.
ODD doesn't seem like such a good fit as he is not always defiant.
When I had looked on checklists previously I was checking for autistic spectrum and he doesn't fit those at all, but when I looked on ADHD it looks like a very good fit.

He was a dreamily easy baby and toddler- never even had the terrible twos.
The problems only began after he was three. As he had just started nursery school we assumed it was him adjusting and is of course pretty normal for a three year old. Although nursery had to have me in for several chats (a couple of times he did really hurt other children) he did have longish (a month or more) periods of acceptable behaviour.

I expected him to exhibit undesirable behaviour when he started school as it's a period of upheaval for all children. I feel though and DH agrees that enough time has elapsed for him to begin to settle now but his behaviour is getting more and more challenging.

And as I said in my earlier post the reluctance to read from such a passionate book lover seems to me very strange.

However, maybe I'm just being paranoid as teacher has not mentioned it. She says he has made some progress with hitting but still struggles with sitting still.

I only had three hours sleep last night wondering/worrying about this.

Heroine - when I read the OP's post at Tue 04-Jan-11 23:55:52 my first thought was that he was intelligent and not being pushed enough.

The reading ability, the acknowledgment off his own back that he is 'different' and associating it with his brain, not just saying his school books are boring but that 'don't tell him anything he wants to know' and his ability to recognise his feelings and take himself off to calm down. All of these things scream highly intelligent so the behviour could very well be down to boredom and lack of appropriate mental stimulation.

Have you asked him what he would like to read / learn about given he has made that specific point. It could be an opportunity to develop a distracting hobby (Dinosaurs / Space etc) which will keep his brain occupied and moderate the behaviour.

"I suggest you look into this seriously before going down the (too easy these days) adhd/aspergers/autism/problem route."

Albeit everything else you said heroine made sense, I'm not convinced that getting a formal diagnosis is actually easy at all.

Heroine, he can't really read very much atm but he does have very strong interests that are unusual for a child of four, and actually he started on these interests probably before he was three.
It started out with him first discovering the non-fiction section of the children's library and since then he has explored many passionate interests mostly historical: egyptians, anglo-saxons, greeks, he loves myths, legends, gods & goddesses. His other main passion is dangerous animals; sharks, snakes, wolves, spiders and especially hyaenas and komodo dragons (fell in love with those two after visits to the zoo!)
He loves us to read very dry factual encyclopaedia-type books to him- sometimes i'm bored but he insists I carry on!
A couple of people (not in any way qualified) have commented that he could be gifted but I've taken that with a pinch of salt. Surely it takes quite a bit more than liking grown-up books to qualify as gifted?
He is definitely different to other children of his own age and prefers to play with older ones when he can.
On holiday this summer we met a family with two boys one aged 7 and the other 4 like ds. Well from the way ds behaved the 4 yo might as well not have existed as he gave all his attention to the 7 yo.
The thing is, the more I think about this the more complicated it becomes and the more confused I feel. He is a complex little boy and I just want to do the best for him...

Just to give you an idea of his meltdowns here is a quick synopsis of one that he had recently. I thought it was very funny at the time, but managed to keep a very straight face in front of ds.

ds was badly behaved while getting ready for bed and lost out on having bedtime stories as a result. Cue a massive screaming tantrum/reasoned argument (in his mind) as to why he should have stories reinstated:

(all shouted at top of voice while crying and throwing himself around the room) ds: I am allergic to not having stories mummy. It makes me sick if I don't have them. I'm very allergic. Me: well stories are not on offer now but you can have a cuddle and get into bed. ds: I am allergic to cuddles too. They make me sick too. I'm only not allergic to cuddles when I have them in the morning. I need a story otherwise I'll be sick, I've got a headache already and it's not even because of all the shouting. (I sit there quietly waiting for him to calm down) What are you mummy, some kind of little old lady who can't hear what little boys are saying? No, you are a mummy and it's your job to listen to what I have to say and give me stories when i need them. That's your job, have you forgotten it?
(dh takes over for a sec while I give dd a kiss) ds: I want to speak to mummy about my stories, its important that I speak to mummy now. You must get out of my way now daddy, otherwise I will be sick on you. What would you do daddy if I just pushed you out of the way to get to mummy? Would you let me have a story then? What do you want me to do then? Do you want me to push you out of the way? Do you want me to be sick on you?

The more you say, the more it sounds like under-stimulation and boredom. Think about how bored and frustrated you would get as an adult if you only ever had children for company with no adult conversation. If he prefers the company of older children, he is probably just feeling the same frustration about being stuck with his fellow four year olds.

Take you queues from him - if he likes dangerous animals, can you develop this past the zoo - books (fiction and non-fiction) - Lion King is good for Hyena's, plastic models of the animals he likes, make a desert or a jungle out of craft items for him to play with them in. You said he wasn't showing signs of wanting to draw - can you find pictures of Hyena's and Komodo Dragons on line that he could colour in or make desert / jungle collages? Instead of trying to get him to write standard words, get him to write the names of the things he is interested in.

If he is reading about a subject ask him to tell you about it even if you already know, ask him questions that will allow him to express his knowledge.

If he is reading something historical, make pyramids or shields with him (I remember when we learned about Vikings and we made a viking long boat).

Also, if he prefers non-fiction to fiction, ask his teachers if they can find non-fiction books as his school reading book, or find something yourself at the library and ask them to use that.

Thanks Lenak, but I'm afraid to say I have tried most of those suggestions already.
I print off loads of pictures, he chooses with me, but then his idea of colouring it in is directing me! If I suggest he does some it usually results in grunts and shouts and in the paper being abandoned at best or ripped up at worst.
This is an adhd trait possibly- not wanting to put any effort in?
He has the playmobil egyptian pyramid (LOVES playmobil) and the african animals sets to go with it which includes hyenas and he plays with that a lot. We have tons of books on his fave subjects too.
I'm afraid the non-fiction books in pink reading band do not interest him one bit! I have tried getting him to read the odd word in his own books but he just moans and groans and says "I don't want to, I can't do it, it's too hard!" without even trying.

Oh my god! He is exactly like I remember myself as a child - I even had the fixation on Komodo Dragons, and had a stand-up classroom argument with a teacher about dragons that were lizards 'this big' (holding out my little arms) that existed on an island when she said I was 'being silly and making it up'

The objections to stories chime a) with this being a sanctuary of intelligent information he misses all day and b) quite an advanced understanding of the politics and roles of parents, authourity figures etc.

Don't panic by the way, a friend of mine's son is clearly gifted and enjoys older company, which has led to him having strong positive relationships with a senior director of a public body, and an academic in a University at age 16 - odd to kids perhaps, but a great asset too!

I would dispute that not wanting to put effort in is an ADHD symptom in this case - it sounds (with the direction of you) like he has the common problem with perfectionism - what he understands is possible is so far in advance of what his body can actually do, he isn't prepared to a) accept and be patient about his body catching up or b) that a result that is less-good than he imagines is acceptable - great if you are a designer and planner, but not if you are at school! - the key here is to explain (perhaps by you learning a task too - perhaps alongside him) that his body needs a different type of learning to get better (try teaching juggling to yourself with him directing - you can describe where the balls should go, you know what to do, but at the start your body won't let you).

If you keep reading with him followng the words, he will pick up reading, - it may be that on his own he just can;t get the information fast enough, and since getting the information fast is what he is interested in, he gets frustrated (that and the closeness of being read to is very attractive!)

Sounds like you are doing many things right, but he will need to learn (not intellectually, emotionally) that motor skills take more than just mental effort to understand.

if its any consolation, I hate DIY for exactly the same reason even as an adult, and even when I know so don't be too hard on the little chap!

Quotes from 'The Survival guide for parents of gifted kids':

Does your child:
drive you crazy with questions?
refuse to take no for an answer?
seem smarter or more talented than other kids his age?
have a zany sense of humour?
like to be challenged with new ideas?
prefer the company of adults or older children?
have a wide range of interests or develop one consuming passion?
remember things you would rather forget?
march to a different drum to peers?
does your child like to take control and organise tasks, seeking to tell you and others how to get the task done?
does your child act like a junior lawyer over getting tasks done even at age 4?

Specifically states: the heightened sensitivity of gifted children may lead them to percieve social rejection and lead them to believe that something is wrong with them

A four year old once told me 'I'm really dumb' I asked him what he meant by dumb. 'Well," he told me, "dumb means different, I don't think like everybody else". He had a tremendously large vovabulary that set him apart -he would say things like 'that's preposterous' - hardly dumb - definitely different'