What to do when "they dare care about the pasta".....

[QueenOfQuotes]

for the pasta jar???

Just had the evening from hell with DS1 - and I'm feeling like the cr*pest, most horrible mum in the world. After his 'incidenct' with the scissors earlier and numerous other deliberate naughty behaviours, and rudeness I decided to try the pasta jar idea. I sat down and explained it to him really nicely, all smiles and lots of encouragment, we even decided what he'd get as a treat for when he filled it.

It was all going really well............for about 5 minutes, and the he started over again, pushing his brother, messing with the landline phone, answering back, ignoring me - the full works. Turned round and told me he didn't "want any pasta in the silly jar" - and he "didn't care" (he' just turned 5 BTW).

I decided it was bath time - as usually it's a good 'distraction'.....but he continued in there, even trying to push DS2 over in the water. I asked him repeatedly not to do the things (not just pushing his brother, other 'stuff') and he ignored me again.

Then, this is the bit I feel so awful about I just snapped. I said so many things to him that I'm so ashamed I can't even bring myself to repeat on here . For the first time in my life I also smacked him without a warning, or reason. I finished the bath of ASAP, and served the dinner up. He was then "taking too long" (in my short tempered mood) to put his pj's on and I threatened to send him to bed with no dinner.

He turned round and said he didn't want any, and that he wanted to go to bed. So I sent him off - nearly 1 1/4hrs early. DS2's dinner was still hot, so I sat down and waited, but after 10 minutes realised I had to go upstairs and say sorry to DS1 and invite him to come back downstairs and have some dinner.

Which he decided to do. Dinner went remarkably well, smiles and giggles from both boys, and they both "earned" their yoghurt for desert. DS1 then tidied up all the toys fantastically well, and I offered to give him a piece of pasta for his jar......still didn't want any.

They both sat on the sofa while I ran the hoover round, but then once I'd finished I asked DS1 to sit quietly on the sofa (as he does everynight) while DS2 had his bottle. again he ignored me, and despite asking 4 times still didn't do it until I started to raise my voice.

Sent them off to bed now (10 minutes ago) but feeling absoutely terrible about the things I said to him . I'm suprised he didn't turn round and tell me he hated me, but I'm sure that's what he was thinking.

I just don't know what to do with him, we've had a couple of days of "do x,y,z and you'll get a toy taken away" - and by dinner time tonight the toy box was practically empty - which of course then isn't fair on DS2.

We've tried calm, shouting, smacking (apart from my disgusting behaviour tonight - this is always done with 3 warnings, and explanation afterwards), naughty step/time out, toys taken away - and I was hoping to try 'pasta jar'.....but he doesn't want to know.

He's never like this for DH, or anyone else. And he even misbehaves for me even if DH is at home and I'm doing the 'talking'.

He sounds just like my dd, also 5. I haven't stopped shouting at her the whole day today. Dh came home & started shouting at her, too. she's been absolutely impossible. i'd never have talked to my parents like that but that's neither here nor there, is it? So damn cheeky.

The first thing I think you need to do is forgive yourself for the things you did and said to him tonight. They're done now, no point beating yourself up about it.

I wonder if ds would think differently about the pasta jar if his brother has one and gets a treat at the end of the week, and he doesn't? I know that ds2 is a bit young for the pasta jar but it might be worth a shot as a means to an end with ds1?

persevere! that's the key. he wants you to give up. kids are clever... he wants to see how long you will do this for.

just keep doing it regardless of whether he wants it or not. he'll soon realise it's there to stay and then start working towards his treat

Just a thought, but is three warnings a couple too many?

I know, I know, I know - I don't have a 5yo - I just wonder whether it draws things out a bit much?

Your Ds1 sounds just like my DS1.

great fun, isn't it?

And there's a funny thread on BW atm - go and cheer yourself up a bit It's called HI

Sansouci - I think today has just been the 'final' straw, so to speak.

He just seem sto be getting progressively worse of the last couple of weeks. I can't put it down to tiredness, as he's like it first thing in the morning for me too . He's always been a lot naughtier for me than for DH (regardless of whether DH is in the house or not), but never this bad.

WWB - I just feel so terrible about it. I can't even believe I said the things I did, and I know if it had been my mum saying them to me when I was 5 it would have completely 'crushed' my spirit.

I suppose I could try it with DS2 too, but he's never really been one for "reward charts" and the like - I remember spending hours making Thomas the Tank enginge 'reward' stickers when we were toilet training him (he was Thomas crazy at that age)and he thought the stickers were very nice.....but they made no impact on his toilet training.

star - I could persevere but if his behaviour (for me) continues like it has been over the last week, it's going to be Christmas before we fill the jar.

could you change it so that he loses one piece if he is naughty but gains 5 if he is good?

that way he may see it filling up quicker. also give him pieces for EVERYTHING (putting his shoes on well etc etc)
once he sees he gets a reward it may work better?

QoQ - I know what you mean about feeling it would crush your spirit, but you at least went up and apologised to him for it, that has to count for something, surely? And tomorrow is another day, right?

I think hunkermunker is right when she says you have to persevere with it, whether he wants to or not. You're in control (OK, so at the moment it doesn't feel like it, but you are) and he has to accept that the pasta jar is going to be used ... I wouldn't worry about it as an incentive for ds2, if you do it for him it would almost be more as something for ds1 to compare with, so he could see the difference between behaving and not.

QOQ, "how dare you!" with a furious glare works well on dd, or "up to your room -- NOW!" or even "no sweets/tv/pudding for a week".

threats, bribery, corporal punishment (swift smack on bottom)...

I asked my Dad (70 Dec. 27th, retired school teacher & father of 3 girls) what he thought was the most important thing to remember when discipling children and he said,

"consistency. always be consistent."

Don't try and fill the jar ... he just has to try and end up with more pieces at the end of the week than he started with. Then at the end of the week you take them out and start again.

QofQ - its not worth rehashing today - children are amazingly forgiving.

What might be worth thinking about is that you are expecting him to control his behaviour yet are not demonstrating to him that you can control yours!

It is subtle but when there's a lot of shouting and smacking going on - no-one is listening to each other very much!

I think that you as the adult need to provide the calm listening approach adn show him how to get what you want without resorting to shouting, tantruming and smacking! The quiet assertive approach if you like

Just clock today upto experience

I would not be surprised if his current behaviour is linked to starting school - it is a very unsettling time for many children

And remember above all else - this is just a phase

QOQ, hes just started school hasnt he?

X Post SB

I really feel for you over your guilt of what you have said to him tonight.

My problems with my DD (also 5, see a theme here!) are well documented on MN and we have some HORRENDOUS times with her. She is also only horrendous to me, never really anyone else.

I had one particularly dreadful day last week when she was just awful, really, really, really awful.

I got so upset - (it makes me feel like shittiest mother too) and said something terrible

I am prepared to say waht it was

"When you go to your Dads tomorrow, dont bother coming back, I dont want you to live with me behaving like that" and you know what? I bloody meant it at the time. Very quickly I felt completely mortified at what I had said and if it would deeply affect her.

Since then however, it sort of shocked us both into behaving better - she was sent to her room to bed 2 hours early as a result of the horrific behaviour earlier on and I think that because, for once I really did follow through on the punishment she realised that I meant business and couldnt tolerate the bad behaviour anymore.

I try all sorts of techniques and like your boy, the reward charts etc just dont seem to cut it with her.

I have started with marbles and having some success but not much really - I do sympathise.

Just wanted to comfort you about what you might have said - I know that awful guilt ridden feeling but you know what - your human, Im human and I have never felt so stressed as on the ocassions when she really drags me through the mill.

Its great that you apologised, I did that too and somewhere inside justified myself by thinking it will show her that I am flawed too but that I will admit when I make a mistake.

Go right back to how you would deal with a smaller child and praise, praise, praise, love, love, love him as much as possible. I realised that I had started to forget some of the praise and had stopped choosing my battles wisely. I had also pidgeon holed her to be in a naughty mood all of the time so I was hyper sensitive to anything remoted wrong and jumped into telling her off.

She suffers a fair bit of sibling jealousy too - does your DS feel jealous of the littler one do you think?

Wow, that was a ramble

Hope some of it at least helped a little
xxx

but that's the thing - there isn't lots of shouting and smacking going on. Even on a 'bad' week - he gets maybe 2, or 3 smacks (from me) a week! All pre-warned. DH probably gives him a similar number (perhaps a few more) - I'm not sure - but he doesn't act like this for him (and DH is home every single day until 1.30 in the afternoon - so it's not like he's out all day).

I've gone through days and days of hardly raising my voice at all, but then he still doesn't seem to listen to me.

I know people seem to think it's linked to school, but I'm not sure it is entirely down to that. He's absolutely loving school, gets up buzzing about going in the afternoon, comes home buzzing, and is still buzzing at bedtime. Although it's got a lot worse in the last week (or feels like it has), we also had similar issues, though not quite so prominent last year while he was at nursery (which he thrived at).

I tried really hard to talk calmly to him today, but after 15-20 calm "can you sit on the sofa please" (or something to that effect", he still wasn't listening. everything I want him to do seems to have to be accompanied by a threat or a bribe (even when I'm not getting cross). And of course DS2 is now starting to pick some of it up.

I still can't get out of my head the things I said to him no-one deserves to have those things said to them

You have to stop thinking about the things you said. It's done, you can't take it back now, but you did apologise to him, and it takes a big person to do that. And you can use it to try and make sure that you don't say those things to him again.

Thanks for your post Peck - what I said was even worse than that .

There's no sibiling rivarly (well only a tiny bit - but not really worth mentioning) - they love each other to bits - always giving each other hugs, and the smile of DS1's face when he see's DS2 getting all excited (in a lovely 22 month old way) as he comes out of school is fantastic.

You're right about the 'hyper-sensitive' to his bad behaviour. I've tried really hard to praise him, and spend time with him, this morning before lunch we actually managed to sit down and do some 'reading' without any issues. But those moments seem to get overshadowed by his naughty behaviour.

I have to go and tidy the kitchen - DH will be home soon, but I'll be back later.

QofQ - I think at this age instructions without shepherding are not terribly effective. With my DS who is 5, I still tend to follow an instruction with the physical positioning to reinforce it IYSWIM. So instead of put your shoes on - I stand him up as I say it thrust his shoes into his hand and stand over him until it is done.

With the sit on the sofa - I would probably pick him up and put him there at the same time as saying 'sit on the sofa'!

I'm a bit anti-smacking so a few smacks a week sound a lot to me. And however few there are don't seem to be being effective (and of course I think smacking never is)

I also wouldn't downplay the effect of school - sometimes they have to work so hard at being 'good' there that they need to let all their naughtiness out in a 'safer' environment!

Anyway - hope tomorrow is a better day

but when he's being good - he does those things without being asked twice - never mind shepherding (for example after he's had his lunch he'll go to the bathroom get his school uniform on, including shoes, without being told to).

He was quite a later talker, but followed instructions very well (without the shepherding) from about 18-19 months, so it's not that he can't but he won't. And DS2 is the same, although he's started 'talking' earlier than his brother did he's also following instructions.

There's no great pressure on them at the school to be "good" - this showed itself clearing at the parents evening last night. One of their specalist areas is ICT, and they've got a massive flat screen which the children use to watch videos (which they've recordered of themselves) and the likes. Last night they had one of these videos playing......and lets just say there wasn't a lot of "must be good" type stuff on there...and living over the back from teh reception area of the school I know that they do give them a lot of freedom.

I just don't know if tomorrow is going to be any better, it seems to be getting worse and worse

Whether he's having to be good, enjoying school, whatever - he's still got an awful lot of new information to process. I'm very sure he hasn't deliberately decided to get to you (I know you don't think that!).

What does he like doing/eating above all else? Can you use that as a reward?

And remember that your financial situation must be preying on your mind even when you don't think it is - it's bound to affect DS1 too because you'll be uptight.

Please be kind to yourself - and don't expect too much of anyone - just take a deep breath when he does something you think is naughty and ask yourself if it's really worth shouting/smacking this time or if you can do something else more low-key and concentrate on the good bits (however few and far between they are).

And then repeat all this back to me when my DS is 5 and I haven't got a clue what I'm meant to be doing

qoq - my thought just now was that might be part of it - he gets a lot of freedom at school, and the excitement of that and of being a 'big boy' might be going to his head a bit? It also sounds a bit like he's enjoying winding you up - gets you to repeat instructions and shocks you by saying he doesn't care about the pasta jar.
Even if it doesn't seem like it right now - it won't go on like this forever!
IME it's not bad things said in the heat of the moment and regretted afterwards that do damage - it's a consistent attitude of rejection - which you certainly don't have to your ds.

And just to make me feel even worse. DH just came home, and I tried to tell him what was going on.

As well as very kindly pointing out that "perhaps now isn't the best time to discuss something like this" (when else are we supposed to discuss it? = he works all afternoon and evening, and it's hardly an easy discussion to have in front of the boys).

He made me realise this is down to me, he does almost exactly what DH tells him to do, almost all of the time, but then he just doesn't seem to pay any attention to me. DH just said

"Well perhaps it's that issue we need to be looking at then, rather than anything else"

QoQ, children often play up with the person they feel the most comfortable with.