One more chance before we let 10mth old cry it out

[mattDP]

Hi,

Our second daughter will be ten months old next Tuesday. Her sleep was all over the place as a baby but at the age of about 3 months she settled into a routine: she got tired about 6:30pm and would fall asleep easily being rocked on my shoulder. She'd then wake up every 30-odd minutes until about 10-10:30pm after which she'd be awake once every 2-3 hours. Quite often - probably one night in two, on average, she'd decide to have a 2-3 hour period of being awake - but still obviously tired and exhausted - in the middle of the night. Each time she would only go back to sleep being rocked on my shoulder.

She's been like that ever since. And it's only my shoulder she'll sleep on: my wife couldn't breastfeed her back to sleep and she wouldn't accept her shoulder either. So the result is that in the ten months that she's been born I haven't been out of the house in the evening once. I've hardly seen any of my friends. I haven't even had a sufficient stretch of free time enough to watch a film in a single sitting in all that time. Often there's not even time to discuss important decisions with my partner, let alone enjoy any quality time with her. It feels like I come home from work, help put the baby and our eldest daughter to bed, help a bit with the tidying up and then spend the rest of the night trapped in the bedroom with the baby. It feels like my life is effectively over.

About 3 months ago we spent a week trying to teach her to sleep better on her own by putting her down when she was very sleepy instead of sound asleep. All we succeeded in doing was making her terrified of being put down: at the slightest sensation of being lowered into a cot she would be wide awake and screaming. We got - literally - no sleep for the week because we couldn't put her down. So we gave up.

Because she's awake so often and for so long at night I'm constantly exhausted. Recently, I lost my job entirely because I had been performing badly for so long thanks to sleep deprivation that my employer just couldn't put up with it any more.

I reached the end of my tether with this long ago but put up with it because I felt I had no choice. We never let our first daughter cry it out although she was a bad sleep (she was different - tough to get to sleep but stayed down once she was) and she grew out of it before the age of two. But I feel I can't put up with this anymore. So season of goodwill or otherwise she's going to have to cry it out over Christmas while our eldest is off school. However, I'm willing to have more try at solving this by putting some work in rather than just leaving her: given the circumstance, and the triple problem of frequent early-evening waking, long periods of late-night wakefulness and an insistence of sleeping nowhere but my shoulder, are there any particular techniques that you think might be worth a shot?

Cheers,
Matt

i did controlled crying with dd1, when she was 6.5 mo. i was returning to work and couldn't function well enough to carry out my job.

i felt like a big bastard, but the tears were over in 3 nights, and dd1 was much sunnier during the day due to her improved sleep. i think for some (strong-willed) children it can be easier in some ways to get the battle over quickly, rather than try the "gentler" methods over a longer time. prior to doing controlled crying, we tried the "no cry sleep solution", which in our case brought about plenty of tears and no extra sleep.

no-one does controlled crying happily, but i think if you've reached the end of your tether it could be worth a try.

Crying it out is different to controlled crying. Read this.

Don't blame you by the way. Sounds like you've really had enough.

Good luck.

poor you. If the sleep deprivation is bad enough for you to have lost your job over it clearly something has to be done, for the whole family's sake. We tackled issues gradually - first put down to sleep awake rather than asleep, then stopped feeding at night, then just patting during night rather than getting out of cot etc.. But different techniques work for different families.

It might be worth getting your wife to go to her rather than you, at least to break the habit of it only being you she will settle with? My husband went in instead of me to break the night feeding habit, as I was breastfeeding, and that worked well, without us feeling we were just leaving the baby. Best of luck.

I'm going to have to name change after this, but we effectively let our 10 month old cry it out. We came back from dinner at a friend's at about 8pm, she had slept in the car and would not go back to sleep. Nothing worked. By 2am we were both at the ends of our tethers. We changed her nappy and left her in her cot. She cried. For 12.5 minutes. Then slept all night. We never left her for longer than 15 minutes and we drew the line between 'I want you back' and 'I'm scared you're never coming back' crying. Sometimes she was too scared for us to leave her, but mostly she was cross with us. The worst was over in under a week, but did occassionally have to leave her crying after this.

Thank you for you responses and understanding.

@quenelle

Thanks for the link. It sounds like controlled crying might be something that's worth a try. We tried settle-and-leave and it didn't work, and we really need something that will help promote all-night sleep as well as self-settling. Made me feel a bit less guilty about trying it as well.

@tholeon

It's not me she settles with - just my shoulder. Sounds bizarre but she seems to find it more comfy than my wife's, and I'm able to support/rock her for longer than my wife can now that she's gotten fairly heavy. So that's wise advice to add.

I agree Matt. Our DS got more upset if we stayed with him than if we left the room. All babies are different though.

Leaf I don't think 12.5 minutes could be considered CIO. Friends of ours left their 13 week old crying for nearly an hour when we were visiting one evening. Truly heartbreaking to hear. The worst thing was, he'd only lost his thumb, if one of them had gone in after ten minutes they'd have saved him a lot of upset.

I'm very surprised your wife can't feed her to sleep. I have never heard of that before. How does she nap in the day? Can she sling her to sleep?

You have my sympathy, my baby slept like yours did and I demand fed and breastfed to sleep around the clock for almost 2 years. Did my head in. I went back to part time work at 15 months and I struggled sometimes as i had early starts and had to extricate myself from feeding a half-asleep baby and run to a waiting cab. Nightmare at the time.

She went from co-sleeping (never had a cot) to her own big girl's bed at 22 months and slept through the first night. I was amazed how easy it was.

But we (my husband is a SAHD although works some night shifts as well) have to still sling her (she's 2 and 3 months) for a nap in the day. And she's getting heavy!

I'm sorry to hear about your job and that you are feeling trapped. I know that feeling well.

Can't help you with the controlled crying but you do have my sympathy.

Have you read The No Cry Sleep Solution?

I've not put it into practice yet, but I've good things about it and am reading the book. I'm totally against CC/CIO. This seems a much gentler way of doing things.

It sounds like you are having a terrible time of it, but try to remember she's not being naughty or manipulative. She's just built up an association between sleep and her Daddy's shoulder. In her little world, its the way you fall asleep. Simple. She doesn't know that she can sleep elsewhere yet.

I don't blame you for wanting to change things - sounds absolutely dreadful for all concerned. I'm not generally in favour of letting babies cry but it does sound like you need to take action. If you can stomach it (I can't but am not in as a desperate as you), CC is probably your best bet - you can choose the intervals you let her cry for but the key thing is that she (eventually) falls asleep on her own in her cot but by coming back to reassure her she knows she hasn't been abandoned.

If she has build up a negative association with her cot perhaps you could ring the changes a bit - change it's position in the room, change bedding, perhaps try a travel cot or something.

I would also get her a teddy for bedtime that is as similar to your shoulder as possible (am being serious)

How does your wife get her to sleep in the day when your shoulder is unavailable?

What are her naps like in the day? At this age I think most suit a short nap in the morning (say 9-9.45) and a longer one in the afternoon (e.g. 12.30-14.30)

btw - otch - I stopped being able to feed DD to sleep after about 8 weeks - made life rather tricky

Oh yes, NCSS is good but takes time and effort (which is very hard when you're so sleep deprived in the first place) It might be worth a read just to get some ideas of other ways to help her to settle.

We've got NCSS from our first. We tried it, it achieved nothing. I have a very poor opinion of it, frankly - it felt to me more like a cunning ploy to keep exhausted parents trying different techniques until their child grew into an adult sleep pattern in order to avoid them resorting to crying it out.

@otchayaniye
Nope, truly she's not fed to sleep in months. Often she's more wide awake after a feed than when she started. In the day she sleeps in her pushchair, in which she's happy to be rocked gently to sleep. Ironically daytime sleeping is rarely a problem: she usually goes quickly and will sleep deeply for a couple of hours or more. She's awake plenty of time before bed, so that's not the issue and we can't use the pram at night as it'd be bad for her back.

@Justalittlereindeer
I know it's all she knows, and I'd happily put up with it if it wasn't so frequent and didn't often take hours. Unfortunately I can't see any way of improving one without improving the other. How can you stop her waking up so frequently without teaching herself to put herself back to sleep? And the long periods of wakefulness just mystify me: often she's obviously exhausted, but she just will not go back to sleep.

Perhaps you could try implementing cc for daytime naps to start with - spend some time in the morning playing in her room, around her cot so shes used to it, and then put her down to sleep in it for her nap. it may be easier than at the end of the day when you (your wife) are low on reserves. this will undoubtedly make the evening routine of cc a little easier.

we did cc with our 14 month old dd. very hard, i cried, but after crying for an hour (with us leaving her for a maximum of 10 minutes each time) she fell asleep untill 4am-a length of time she'd never done. you and your wife need to be totally clear with a plan of action to suit you both and be consistent with it. good luck! you'll get there and feel normal again :)

Is it that she doesn't like to sleep lying flat? She sleeps in the pushchair or your shoulder but doesn't like to lie flat? Does she seem uncomfortable? Could she have silent reflux (basically heartburn).

Have you tried putting her down on her front? She might settle like that, legs bent a bit under with your hand on her. Will take a while for her to get used to it but feels more cosy than lying on her back.

Her sleeping for nap won't be the same for nights. There's little point doing CC for naps and expecting it to work at night. My DS self settles at night, but naps rarely!

DS is 10 months as well, and until a month ago, would only be rocked to sleep. He had to be fast asleep before being put in his cot. He usually woke again around 10:30pm, and then he'd end up in the bed with us for the rest of the night, as he was impossible to settle.

We tried controlled crying for one night, but I couldn't do it. I'm sure it would have worked, but DS was hysterical. He even pooed himself (and he'd only been left 2 minutes).

So, I chickened out of that one. I've been trying the Baby Whisperer technique instead. You put your baby down when they are sleepy, but awake. You are 'allowed' to pick up and cuddle your crying baby, but as soon as he/she has stopped crying, you put them down and lay a hand on them until they're in a deep sleep. The method changes slightly according to age - with older babies, it's suggested you do more of the 'put down' part of the method. So, for instance, you wait until your baby has pulled up in her cot and cries for you,and then gently lay her down, say 'sleepytime/bedtime' and put your hand on her. Don't pat her. On the first night, you might have to do this up to 150 times.

It's honestly working with DS. It takes a few weeks, so if you need a quick fix (quite understandable, given your circumstances) then it may not be for you. The first night was admittedly exhausting, but it rapidly improved after that.

On the first night, I noticed the difference in DS' crying. With controlled crying, his cries were panicky, deep sobs. This time, he wasn't hysterical, because he knew I was in the room and hadn't left him. He was just angry, because I wasn't rocking him to sleep as he expected.

It has taken about three weeks, but I'm now in a position where I can put him down in his cot at bedtime and he'll perhaps fuss a little, and then lie down by himself and go to sleep. Usually, he's asleep within ten minutes or so. I don't leave the room during this time and only leave once he's in a deep sleep.

The nights have dramatically improved. Last night he didn't wake until 3:30am, and took just a moment to settle again. He still wakes up early, but I'm working on that.

Nap times are also much, much better (I use the same method).

At some point, I'll begin leaving the room a little earlier. Even so, he's already learning to self-settle - sometimes he cries in the night for a couple of minutes and then goes back to sleep. As I said before, this method is not a quick fix, but even after a few days, I felt like I was finally getting my life back (I do most of the nights as DH works, whereas I am currently a SAHM).

Sorry for the long post! I hope it helps. Good luck. I really hope you get some much-deserved sleep soon!

There is also a sleep regression around this age- it may not be the best time to try it and it work well. look them up on askmoxie. hth.

I found it a lot easier to do sleep training stuff once I felt DS had enough understanding to know what I was saying to him 'shush, sleepytime etc.' - at ten months you are probably just about there. I don't think you should feel guilty - if the sleep deprivation is that bad you really do have to something, as I said, for everyone's sake. She will be able to learn other sleep cues I'm sure.

I can't believe you've lost your job because you can't get your baby to sleep at night. That is terrible, in fact, it's absolutely shameful that you would let a child rule (ruin) your life in this way. Put your child in her cot, say goodnight and walk away. She may scream at first but she will get over it. For her sake as much as yours, you have got to be cruel to be kind. Outside of this strange internet forum, it is absolutely NOT normal for children not to sleep at night.

"outside of this strange Internet forum"???

Well if that's the case bobby, why are there so many books on getting babies to sleep? There must be a market because, er, many don't.

Oh yes, leaving a baby to scream, that old classic

And if it's is so strange, why are you here?

Just to add, we did CC with our DD having tried everything else we could think of to teach her to self settle, and it worked so well and was actually less traumatic for all concerned.

We left her for 2 mins to start with and then doubled the interval each time, so 2, 4, 8 and 16 mins. We never ever got beyond the 16mins. We used to go in, lay her back down, stick her dummy in and give her her comforter, then say "sleepytime" and leave. Timing the intervals (using a stopwatch app on phone) made it so much easier to cope with from our POV. It took 3 days to work, and the time it took kept getting shorter.

DD still cries from time to time when we put her down but now usually still falls asleep within 2 mins. I have accepted that this is part of how she gets to sleep, and often she will go straight down without a squeak as soon as we put her in her cot.

We used CC again recently to drop the night feeding - she was waking up 2/3 times in the night and I was going back to work so needed to knock it on the head, plus she was having plenty of food and milk in the day. She now sleeps through the vast majority of the time and my life has changed! :)

Ignore bobbysmum's unhelpful post, you were trying desperately to do the best for your child. CC will only work if you are both committed and ready to do it, and it sounds to me as though the time may now be right.

Good luck

If you can manage to get through a few tough nights I'd give cc a try-sounds as if you've tried the other approach for long enough. I think some baby's are born good sleepers (like your first) and others need more help. We used cc with ds at about the same age as he used to fight going to sleep and then wake several times-it only took a few nights and he was sleeping through. I gave him a muslin for a snuggly that I'd carried round with me all day so it smelt of me,and also a teddy so he had some constant comforters if he woke in the night. I saw an improvement after the first night of cc,and it only took about 3 nights all together. Goodluck,sounds like you really are in need of a break

mattDP

Your words:
Nope, truly she's not fed to sleep in months. Often she's more wide awake after a feed than when she started. In the day she sleeps in her pushchair, in which she's happy to be rocked gently to sleep. Ironically daytime sleeping is rarely a problem: she usually goes quickly and will sleep deeply for a couple of hours or more. She's awake plenty of time before bed, so that's not the issue and we can't use the pram at night as it'd be bad for her back.

should sound an alarm. My son just turned 11 months, so we're not too much further down the developmental road than you and what has been helping us tremendously is the book, "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child". I would buy a copy for all my pregnant friends if I could afford it.

The daytime naps should be 60-90 minutes maximum. One in the midmorning, say 9 to 10 or 13:30 and another at 1-2 or 2:30. The fact that she's sleeping "deeply" for a "couple of hours or more" mean she's not tired enough in the evening. Run, do not walk, to get a copy of the book. Buy it used on Amazon or something.

Our son wakes at 6, has a nap from 9 to 10, which is 10:30 when he's ill or teething, lunch at 12-12:30 and then a soothing calm down and is asleep by 1. This lasts until 2 or 2:30 if he's had a bad night or has a cold or something. In between naps he has active play, or I take him to the park or into the garden - lots of stimulation and natural daylight. Dinner at 5, optional bath at 5:30 and in pajamas and breastfeeding at 5:50 .. on the way to the Land of Nod by 6.

What you need is a schedule. Let her nap to the schedule, but wake her after 60-90 minutes, even if she seems tired. Get her tired by going outside, playing indoors with toys that make her move around (not just books) and then an early bedtime. We too were going insane with sleep deprivation, it led to me being diagnosed as depressed and given medication. However, now that we have a firm schedule (it changed, he had 3 naps until he was 8.5 months old) and a routine, he gets tired and is fed to sleep at the set times each day and expects his sleepy times.

I hope our story helps you a bit.

I wouldn't let your child cry it out at this age. There are plenty of things to try here. The Baby Whisperer is another.

I put my DD on a very tight schedule and did various sleep training methods around this age. She improved enormously and when I felt she had to be left to cry it out she was over a year and it only took about 10 minutes for her to settle herself.

I think your wife is going to have to step in here and give you a hand. Usually people say the reverse here! I had 2 bad sleepers so I know what the exhaustion is like. I did all the nights. And my DD wouldn't feed to sleep from day one. I was stunned, but she was always alert after a feed.

I wish you all the best.

I'm probably going to have to change my name after this but we did CC with our DD at 7 months and it worked for us. Although I was distraught the first night she was asleep within 35 mins and by night 3 she was asleep before I'd even gotten down the stairs.

I think it's worth a try in your case Matt. And it's easier to do it now than when they can get themselves out of their cot. A friend tried it with her 2YO DD and it took several weeks, which IMO really is cruel.

With regards to your DD being more awake after a feed - how much caffeine does your wife have? I find sometimes if I've had more than two cups of tea (and waay to many chocolate bars)
DD is a tad more hyper after feeding.

Whatever you do, best of luck. I really feel for you.