URGENT HELP! Should I remove DS from nursery?

[Redhead77]

DS is 3 and 3 months, and is in his 2nd term at a local Montessori nursery (5 mornings a week). I chose it as he's a smart but boisterous child and (possibly wrongly) thought it'd be the calming influence which would nicely balance the softplay/playground type activities we do.

We have play dates most afternoons, where his interaction with other kids is very normal, no violence just snatching/not sharing toys occasionally, from both sides, and as I say very normal stuff. He is sociable, but has friends he favours over others, still pretty normal I think. Kids want to play with him and they interact well, playing games together.

A bolt out of the blue last Thursday when I had to sign an incident report sheet when i collected him from nursery for biting a very sweet younger boy on the face. He has never bitten a child before, I was shocked and they agreed it wasn't like him. I talked to him about it and thought it was a one off. Then yesterday he bit the same child again so I was taken to one side and told that he wasn't socialising well with the other children, he was too 'in their faces' and they were having to give him too much individual attention to prevent similar incidents happening more frequently. I broke down in tears with embarrassment (not my finest hour) and they suggested they enlist the help of an early years intervention specialist to come and give me help and one on one care for my DS.

Then today I got called from nursery to say it'd happened again and since my mum was picking him up today we'd speak tomorrow about further action. However they said next time I'd have to pick him up straight away, and I guess every time he does it. I can't help feeling that if he knows that's the result it will make him carry on biting not stop. But early intervention seems a bit extreme for something that's only just started?

Other information that is relevant is I had a DD in March (they get on really well but that's not to say he's going to be totally fine about it), also his cousin has been a biter for the last year and DS gets bitten a few times every time they're in the same room. Which has never bothered me as I've known it's a normal phase kids can go through and I've always felt really sorry for my sister-in-law! However, it's clearly made an impression (pardon the pun) that it's a good way to get attention!

My DH wants to take him out of the nursery he's in and send him to the state one attached to our local primary school as he feels the normalness of kids being able to be kids a bit more, will better suit our DS. I'm not against this, but worry the change could make matters worse.

Rightly or wrongly I said yesterday that if it happened again I'd take away all his toys (worked for a friend of ours in a similar situation), so after today's incident I removed every single toy and the place has never looked so tidy (ha ha). I've said that if he doesn't hurt anyone tomorrow I'll get a few out, and every day after that. Not sure if it'll work, but want to try!

I just want him to be happy, I want him to stop biting, and I want to stop feeling like shit about it all!

Any advice welcomed!

I don't know what to suggest but I find it odd that he is having this behaviour in one environment. My only comment would be to try and have a good honest discussion about his behaviour with the nursery staff foryou to find out exactly how he is in that setting. I know children who are really badly behaved at home but little angels at school, vice versa.

I think that you might think about taking him out for a few days whilst you sort out what you want to do.

I do know that there is some aggressive behaviours too at normal nurseries, and I also know that some children just don't settle well in Montessori nurseries.

Hope it helps.

Can you go and observe him from a distance in the nursery? Ask for more factual details about how he is socially - also what he was like before your daughter came along. The likely hood is that he is just trying biting out but if there are deeper issues than it would be good to see a specialist.

I am writing from my own perspective, obviously I don't know your DS. My observation is that your schedule seems pretty busy; at 3 years and 3 months 5 mornings a week and playdates most afternoons sounds exhausting.

My DS is a busy, active, energetic little boy and I don't think he'd cope with your schedule. He goes to pre-school 4 mornings a week (he is 4) and we keep things fairly low-key in the afternoon, with a playdate once a week or so. Our Fridays are generally kept free in case he needs a duvet day, which he does, frequently.

I say all this because my DS is an absolute handful when tired. He lashes out, has tantrums and is hard work. Because of this, I try and manage his time quite carefully so he gets plenty of time to just be.

Perhaps try reducing his time at nursery or cut down on playdates for a while? At your son's age my DS did 2 mornings a week which was plenty, to be honest. Even at 4 he is pretty tired with his 4 mornings.

Hi llareggub. You might well have a point!

Pre DD in March we'd do something in the morning or afternoon but not both. I've been filling our time to avoid whole afternoons in front of the TV as I've not quite worked out how to balance entertaining time with both an 8 month old and a 3.3 year old on my own. Especially with broken nights sleep EVERY night sleep (oh how I miss 8 hours interrupted!).

I don't have the option though of less than 5 sessions with either the Montessori or the state school option, it seems to be 5 sessions or nothing, although I'll check my facts with the local school tomorrow.

Also, we've ordered a Gro Clock to try and get DS to sleep in (5 am starts most days). So again, the tiredness might well be a problem from that angle!

Will give it all some thought.....

My DD is 3.7 and hasn't bitten anyone at nursery, yet. But she recently bit DS (22mo)so hard, on his face, that he had a ring of teeth marks for 5 days afterwards.

I think that rewards/punishment may struggle a bit at this age because they are so impulsive rather than making a clear decision to bite, IYKWIM. But the intervention sounds a bit much/bit heavy handed at this early stage - it is pretty common, although undesirable, behaviour.

I do feel for you, biting is tough to deal with but IT IS A PHASE AND IT WILL PASS
I went to see the behaviour specialist at my GPs. Amongst other things she suggested was to spend 10 minutes a day on our own, just doing what he wanted. I had had DC2 and was PG with DC3, and I'm positive it was just too much for my wee boy. He must've been 2.5. It worked almost immediately and he neve bit again. He was waking up at 6am, so I'd get up and this was our time together. And I will never play with Thomas the tank engine in the early morning ever again!
It is horrid, but please don't over-react. Children push, hit, bite. It's a fact of life. The nursery should be supporting you so you can provide a consistent approach.
And I agree with cutting back on the social life.

Good luck, it will pass.

Well, you have my sympathy there. I have a 19 month old DS as well so I completely relate to the challenges of entertaining both. I can tell you that it does get easier! Good luck.

Another perspective from me. At 3y 3m my DD was doing 3 full days and one half day at private nursery pre-school and there are plenty of children who do 5 full days at that age. So whilst I don't exactly disagree with llaregub ref the full on schedule I can't see that it would be directly related to the biting. 5am starts do sound knackering all round though! Good plan to work on that.

I'm afraid that I don't know a vast amount about the Montessori environment but what exactly does your DH think will be achieved in moving your DS to another nusery. Apart from removing him from the one child who seems to be triggering the biting of course.

Yes, this, or any nursery should be working with you on a strategy to elimate the biting and modify the "in your face" behaviour. Is this what they mean by intervention or do you feel that they are trying to "label" your DS in some way? If the latter, would a chat with your GP help to get another POV on this?

I agree with your DH. I think the nursery should be able to deal with this without invoking interventions. It's not an uncommon behaviour in children. Change nursery.

On a wider point - is he still out every afternoon with you doing activities? This could be too much. He could be tired which will affect his behaviour.

I think you're right to show him the behaviour is unacceptable through consequences and rewards.

All the best.

Also, biting is an attention-seeking behaviour. He will be feeling some lack of attention because of new sibling (even if loves her to bits).

In addition to agreeing with llaregrub's points about your ds's possible tiredness, I wonder whether the frequent transitions from nursery/home/friend's house with different modes of behaviour are too much for him to handle? At this age, there often seems so much of the day they can handle sharing, taking turns, adapting to new situations for. I would work on the 5am starts and reduce activities in the afternoon.

I thought it was The Law that the older child had to become word-perfect in every irritating CeeBeebies jingle when you have subsequent siblings, anyway .

I guess I'm scared too that I'll go mad if I don't have a bit of adult company to look forward to in the afternoon so that I don't have 11 hours of just me and the kids. Maybe I'll cut down to a couple of play dates a week and see how it goes.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I really appreciate it!

Lots of good thoughts here already.

I think you nailed it when you said you look forward to adult company. Your little boy is "pawned off" great parts of the day. You are busy at home with the new baby in the daytime, and you are busy with adult company in the afternoon. I see where you are coming from though. I would cut down on the amounts of play dates, and just go out with YOUR KIDS once or twice a week.

Your son is social, he would love you to want HIS company. I would take mine to the park and playground followed by lunch, either in a cafe or just picnic in the park, once a week. One day a week I had a babysitter with the baby, when I took my older son to gymboree, or some other thing just me and him.
Could you try something like that? I found that the younger one really did not mind, in fact hardly noticed if I was not around for an hour or two.

Just don't start beating yourself up over it. I felt terribly guilty that I caused this by having DC2. Regret that mound of negativity I piled on myself to this day.
Some days it will be just you and the kids, God knows it can drive me insane, but arrange something for the next day. It's all about getting a balance, but just for now, you need to tip it in DS's favour and give him regular, consistent 1:1 attention. Just a little, every day.

And speak to the nursery. I don't agree that sending him home if he does it again is the right course of action. Is this a punishment? Does it mean they are excluding him for it? Or punishing you? They should be teaching him what is appropriate behaviour in their environment.

I am definitely going to spend more time one on one with him. I hadn't made the link (sleep depravation's a killer for good judgement sometimes). Today I'm getting my mum in to watch DD2 so DS1 and I can make biscuits together.

Regarding the nursery, I've just come back from the meeting fuming. Next time he bites I have to collect him- so far so fair(ish) as I'm putting myself in the other parents shoes. However, they say at that point the only course of action would be to involve the early intervention team from the local authority. What they do sounds great in theory (one on one support), however it will go on DS1's educational record, and quite frankly it seems a bit drastic to label him as having social problems!

Anyway, thanks again for all the good advice! :)

Er, I have major alarm bells ringing over that one! Are they protecting themselves, I wonder? It doesn't sound to me as though they are handling the situation well at all.

At our lovely nursery the teacher told DS1 "Dogs bite not children" and took him away from the situation after he apologised. Only once did I have to see a parent (who, having had 3 children herself was not in the least bit upset!). I felt the nursery and I worked together so we were consistent.

You also need to find out what led to the incident, if it happens again. He might be reacting to something.

I'd be really unhappy at their approach. Some children go through this phase. I can't believe that this is their course of action. I'd be moving him on these grounds alone. Either they are more concerned for themselves or have no experience of children!!!

FWIW, if another child bit mine I'd expect the child to apologise, to be made aware that it is not acceptable and to be seperated from mine for a time (depends on if mine started it!). I would think it extreme to exclude the other child, or to get the authorities involved. I wouldn't want that.

I am actually fuming on your behalf too!

Hi, meant to post earlier but time got to me!!............My DS is / was / has been a biter. This IS a stage and I feel can be handled by nursery and yourselves as long as you are both tacking it the same way.
The way we dealt with it was -
1 - time out
2 - explaining why it isn't nice to hurt others
3 - apology to other child
It worked well for us and DS nursery.
I would say try not to carry on a punishment at home for something he has done earlier in the day - they just don't understand the context!!
Recently I was out of action for 6 weeks following an operation and DSs behaviour at nursery took a turn for the worse. They also mentioned intervention and I said NO....6 weeks is a long time for a childs routine to change, all he needed was to get back to being with me and things would get better............and they did.
Your DS needs (as stated previously)a small amount of "Mummy Time" every day and i am sure things will get better.
Lou xx

PS - they can only get the early intervention team in if you agree......there are forms to sign etc. If you don't want this for your child, then you have every right to say no.

Poor you, I can see why your upset and don't know what to do. Remember that biting is common and a phase that he'll pass through but it is unacceptable and very upsetting for the other child and their parent too!

The nursery don't sound very helpful tbh and are being very quick to hand the 'problem' over to someone else.

I'd be inclined to approach the nursery at the local state school to see if he can get a place there say 3 half days per week. They may be more sympathetic as they are not running a business in the same way as the Montessori school.

IMHO I think that you are trying to do far to many different activities with him which is causing him to become tired and loose control at times. Hence he bits because it's the only way he can express how he's feeling.

If you were to reduce his nursery sessions to 3 half days then you could take him out on the other 2. I think that 1 activity each day is plenty and there is a lot to be said for keeping 1 whole day per week free so he can take it easy. You might also find it worthwhile inviting the other child on the playdate to your home, your ds might feel a bit more relaxed in his own familiar environment right now. The suggestion of 1:1 time also sounds really good to me.

I know that it's often boring and lonely being at home with young children but try to remember that this too will pass and will be worth it if you son is happy.

Also, I don't think that there's any need to take his toys away as a punishment for biting. I think that as they are his taking them away migh unsettle him further and he is too young to be able to link their removal to his unwanted behaviour a few hours previously. If he bites just say 'no' firmly and remove him to calm down. He then needs to say sorry to the other child. The nursery should be doing this but it sounds like it's easier for you to take him home! Make sure that you apologise profusely to the other child's mother, she'll appreciate the fact that you don't think it's acceptable and are trying to address it (I have experience of being a parent of both a biter and a bitee).

Of course you're fuming, it's completely ridiculous. Change nursery.

my DS was a bit of a biter too though not to this extent. Lots of good advice so no need to re-iterate any of it. Just wanted to pick up on one thing - you say his cousin is also a biter and your DS "gets bitten a few times every time they're in the same room" - do you see them much because that seems a lot to me. Getting bitten really hurts and a couple of times every time they meet if they meet regularly will really hurt (in addition to what he might learn from it). How do you/your sister handle it because if its very low key perhaps it giving the message that its not such a bad thing to do. After one bite I would make a huge fuss of him (both of you)and separate him form the biter so that he physically can;t do it again.

Nursery also sound like they are not experienced at dealing with this. I was lucky DS always bit to get something a toy etc so it was easy to take that away and he learnt that he didn't get what he wanted by biting. Not so easy if it wasn't for any particular reason.

Nursery are dealing with this in a bizarre way and I can see why you're fuming after your meeting. What would DS learn if you have to pick him up after he bites? I bite another child = hurray Mummy comes to get me!

All nurseries should have strategies for how they deal with challenging behaviour (and your son's does not sound very challenging - albeit upsetting all round and it does need to be nipped in the bud) - they should have a behaviour management policy that you can ask to see and I would not expect to see that excluding 3 year olds is part of it. They sound like they are just trying to make their own lives easier! They might end up with no children there some days if enough push/bite etc!

My friend's 2 year old DD goes to a Montessori nursery and went through a phase of biting/pinching/pushing. Nursery were very supportive, did lots of modelling good behaviour and praise when she behaved well. In the end though it was mainly solved by her moving up a room there - seems she was bored and acting out with the babies and loves the extra stimulation of the older children. Could this be an issue?

I would worry about your DS being bitten so often though - if the cousin getting away with this behaviour? If so it is a poor message to give both children and I would not be happy with that happening to my DS.

I agree with LeeLoo....my DD is in a small private school and also went to nursery there...they had a very difficult child...FAR more serious actions than those of your DS....and they never came down like this...nor made the little girls Mum come and collect her after something happened!

Our nursery saw a pattern with the child...it tended to occur during less organised activities...and alway between 11.00 and 12.00...so they made sure that they were right beside her and checkng to see what was stressing her out....it turned out she hated snack time! Poor little thing...she was right as rain once they had chnged the routine a little....nirseries re there to get to the bottom of this stuff...they're meant to help...could you ass about when your DS did the biting and see if there is a pattern?

Did the nursery tell you the exact situation when your ds bit?

my ds is the same age as yours, he goes to a school attacthed nursery. He has never bitten, but has bitten his 'friends' twice in the past 6 weeks. I understand how mortifying it is.

I asked my ds why he did it and he said x was hurting my neck, i got him to demonstrate and the other child was basically strangling him. My ds retaliated by biting, something i don't think he realised was so wrong. Him and the other boys he frequently plays with can be very rough and tumble. But of course my ds ends up looking like the "biter"!

I have now told him if another child is hurting him he should push them off and go and tell his teacher. He seemed very happy about that because up until that point he was expected to do nothing. I hope now i've given him a stategy he won't bite.