URGENT HELP! Should I remove DS from nursery?

[Redhead77]

DS is 3 and 3 months, and is in his 2nd term at a local Montessori nursery (5 mornings a week). I chose it as he's a smart but boisterous child and (possibly wrongly) thought it'd be the calming influence which would nicely balance the softplay/playground type activities we do.

We have play dates most afternoons, where his interaction with other kids is very normal, no violence just snatching/not sharing toys occasionally, from both sides, and as I say very normal stuff. He is sociable, but has friends he favours over others, still pretty normal I think. Kids want to play with him and they interact well, playing games together.

A bolt out of the blue last Thursday when I had to sign an incident report sheet when i collected him from nursery for biting a very sweet younger boy on the face. He has never bitten a child before, I was shocked and they agreed it wasn't like him. I talked to him about it and thought it was a one off. Then yesterday he bit the same child again so I was taken to one side and told that he wasn't socialising well with the other children, he was too 'in their faces' and they were having to give him too much individual attention to prevent similar incidents happening more frequently. I broke down in tears with embarrassment (not my finest hour) and they suggested they enlist the help of an early years intervention specialist to come and give me help and one on one care for my DS.

Then today I got called from nursery to say it'd happened again and since my mum was picking him up today we'd speak tomorrow about further action. However they said next time I'd have to pick him up straight away, and I guess every time he does it. I can't help feeling that if he knows that's the result it will make him carry on biting not stop. But early intervention seems a bit extreme for something that's only just started?

Other information that is relevant is I had a DD in March (they get on really well but that's not to say he's going to be totally fine about it), also his cousin has been a biter for the last year and DS gets bitten a few times every time they're in the same room. Which has never bothered me as I've known it's a normal phase kids can go through and I've always felt really sorry for my sister-in-law! However, it's clearly made an impression (pardon the pun) that it's a good way to get attention!

My DH wants to take him out of the nursery he's in and send him to the state one attached to our local primary school as he feels the normalness of kids being able to be kids a bit more, will better suit our DS. I'm not against this, but worry the change could make matters worse.

Rightly or wrongly I said yesterday that if it happened again I'd take away all his toys (worked for a friend of ours in a similar situation), so after today's incident I removed every single toy and the place has never looked so tidy (ha ha). I've said that if he doesn't hurt anyone tomorrow I'll get a few out, and every day after that. Not sure if it'll work, but want to try!

I just want him to be happy, I want him to stop biting, and I want to stop feeling like shit about it all!

Any advice welcomed!

hmm, well i aree totally with what was said about the cousin - if he is getting bitten it is clear where that behaviour comes from!

dd had a biting incident at nursery, in fact two - one where she was bitten, and another where she bit someone else (the next day..) so it in that case: clear link between being bitten and biting someone else.

the nursery told us when we picked her up on both occasions. If she was doing it every day, i don't think it would be unfair for them to ask us to take her out, as they can't have a kid in the room who is biting others. As she loves being at nursery she'd know being taken out was a punishment. This is a normal EYFS nursery attached to school though not part of it.

what we did about it: we asked the nursery for a report every day, and if the day was ok, then she'd get a bit of cake. She has been very good since!

Also agree sounds like an exhausting schedule: DD sleeps for most afternoons and we only have a short trip out in the afternoon. As much for my benefit as hers...

I think trying to get some one on one time with your DS is absolutely the right thing to be doing. But the nursery's reaction does seem strange; there were several "serial biters" in DS's nursery class, including one who seemed to particularly target DS (this boy had a new baby sister, too) and there was no talk or early intervention and nor should there have been in my view (we did get some serious grovelling from the nursery when X managed to bite DS more than once in a single day once, though). Having your DS picked up by you as soon as he bites also seems bizarre; if anything it reinforces "Feeling a bit bored? Ready to go home for the day? Just toddle over and bite little Billy and I get to go home with Mummy..."

AFAIK the key when dealing with a biter (in a nursery situation or socially as between your DS and his cousin) is to be aware of what triggers the biting, so that staff can be alert for a potential flashpoint situation and head it off before the biting happens, and to focus attention on the bitee and away from the biter.

At this age children don't get that biting is "worse" than pushing or hitting. To them it's just another tool in their arsenal and they haven't acquired the adult taboo about biting yet.

I would move him if only because IMO they are handling his biting episodes poorly.

There are far better ways for the nursery to manage it than to call you to remove him. And as for involving the Early Intervention Team, well that sounds quite bonkers really. The EIT have far more challenging children to work with than an otherwise well behaved, normal happy child.

I agree he is probably knackered - my DD3 (age 4.2) is vile when tired.

Also, dd 18 months has recently bitten ds so it's clear that has given him the idea.

At this age children don't get that biting is "worse" than pushing or hitting. To them it's just another tool in their arsenal and they haven't acquired the adult taboo about biting yet.

This is what i was trying to say!

In some instances it may be learnt, but my DS had never been bitted, he managed to learn that all on his own

Just wanted to make that point, so don't lay the blame at the cousin's door.

Fact is you'll never know why, you just need to get him through this phase as quickly as possible!

Bitted? Bitted?? Bitten. Doh!

Wow, where to start!

Regarding the toys, yes it was extreme but as promised I got a couple well chosen ones out as a reward for good behaviour at nursery today (ie no chomping), Mega Bloks so we could play together creatively and an ELC kerplunk type game so we could practice taking turns, playing nicely etc. I also got out a couple of puzzles for good measure 'as he'd been so good'. It was actually really good to focus on the few toys that were out as he was calmer with them rather than starting something, giving up, moving on, and basically trashing the place. Along with the biscuit making it filled an afternoon and we had lots of fun together.

Regarding the cousin, that's a whole different thread really but in a nutshell, DH's sister not mine (tricky!). Sister-in-law a very VERY strong character and I keep shtum as quite frankly we have family days and there's enough arguments amongst themselves without me getting involved (nothing serious just mother, daughter, grandmother dynamics and differences of opinion regarding childrearing etc.). The biting is dealt with by Sister in law- naughty step, lots of it, little effect. More worrying though is the fact she is increasingly telling my DS off too, in the manner of a parent which really whips him up into a frenzy. I'm sure if he could articulate/gesticulate he'd stick two small fingers up at her and say 'you're not my mother, don't tell me what to do'. It's really tricky, and maybe in the future we'll address it but nows not the time for personal reasons in their family so for now we've decided to avoid visiting when the cousins there, just to be on the safe side.

And finally, regarding saying sorry to the parents- I have every intention of doing that when I see them. DS was on the receiving end of a facial bite earlier in the term and the mother apologised, clearly mortified and I was very sympathetic.

Oh wait, another finally.....we're going to talk it through tonight but reckon it's out with the montessori and in with the rough and ready local state nursery. I'm pretty sure a big factor in the lashing out is that for whatever reason he's just not really happy there- bored perhaps? They can say he's lacking in social skills but if it's only happening there, and they can't control it then it's probably best to move on......and spend the extra £700 per term we'll save on a well earned holiday

If you want to use some of the one-on-one time to talk about why biting isn't good, this book might be a good place to start. Whatever nursery your DS ends up at.

My God, that much money? And they can't cope with a child that bites? Unbelievable. So pleased you're removing him.

Regarding your sister-in-law - if she's making your child worse, tell her to back off. But also, make sure you are correcting your child so she doesn't have to butt in. She might be an in-law but if she doesn't know her place you need to put her in it.

Don't you think he might be trying to tell you that he doesn't want to go to nursery? Boys, when distressed, become far more 'in your face', or agressive/territorial.
Perhaps scheduling his every waking moment is just too much for the wee thing, let him be at peace, sometimes?

Believe me I do correct my DS, I'm no backseat mother, but the sister-in-law is a verbal pouncer, she's unstoppable! And much, much louder than all of us. She even threatens DS with the naughty step which I really feel is not her place. But as I say, now isn't the time to tackle this issue, and I think DH needs to say something at some point (he's possibly more irritated by it) as if I wade in I fear we'll all end up on the Jeremy Kyle show......

and the money issue- yup! The £700 is the top up fee per term! What were we bloody thinking?

Rollmops, he does have time to chill, it's just he's not so far been the kid that wants to sit quietly and draw or play by himself, he wants to play- and if not entertained he'll demand CBeebies, which I'm all for, but i felt it was getting to be a bit of a problem.

So, if there aren't kids around then it's me who has to step into that role as constant play-mate. Which is fine and what i signed up for, but I've an almost 8 month year old DD who crawls like a dynamo, cruises, can climb stairs and is into EVERYTHING (the more dangerous the better), so I can't focus all day, every day on DS it's just not practical. When you add into the mix weaning, breastfeeding and all the basic house chores (and I mean basic).

I need a bit of nursery time, or we'll all go mad! And I think you're probably right, he doesn't want to go to nursery. But I'm hoping that the different pace of the new nursery will be more up his street. Today when I visited, there were boys with masking tape stuck over their eyes doing 'blind boxing' laughing their heads off. Definitely not the montessori way, but right up my DS's alley I reckon!

It sounds great. Hope all goes well.

Agree with you that DH is probably the one to deal with his sister. Glad he's on the same page as you about it. In the meantime, try and keep out of her way for your sake (and your son's).

I really hope that his current nursery know you are moving him because of their inability to deal with basic childcare issues and their handling of the situation, and NOT because of him biting a couple of times.

I'm pretty ignorant about the whole Montessori thing, but my belief is that the role of nursery is to teach them the fundamentals - how to sit on the carpet, put your hand up, say please, but more importantly how to behave appropriately in a school environment and how to deal with other peoples actions. The rest should be fun.

I think you are doing the right thing.

Hmmm, hope it all calms down, sounds stressful.

Yes, I've been there with a 3 year old and a baby- well they're now 4 and nearly 2, but I know that my son the older one did get deprived of attention during the baby's first year. I think it's quite hard to give them quality attention when you've been up all night BF and the baby is grabbing attention during the day.

My son is also awful, horrendous, whatever else you want to call it when he's tired. Not so much at "school"- he's impeccably behaved there (!), but with me afterwards. Does your son nap still? I wish mine would on days like today and that's at 4!

Good luck in no more biting!

just had to post my dd was biten by her cousin lots when they where 2 and 3, generaly when they where alone in wendy house or hall playing and we where in kitchen. my sister witnessed my dd in the hall sitting on dn saying bite me. she never mentioned to me as she delt with it. next week i witnessed dd on dn in wendy house doing the same thing. we then made sure we where supervising them all the time, it soon stopped.

at nursery my dd was bitten by another child on 3 occassions when she was 4. dd was teeling me they where playing at being dogs. I told nursery the game and they kept an eye out and noticed children where playing dogs and tugging at clothes with teeth, one child did not read the signals right and was bitting, they put a stop to all dog games.

dd was bitten by the same cousin at school last week thought he had grown out of it, but happened during a wet play time when only dinner lady was suppervising, but dd was pulling dn neck and hurting him. If teacher was in the room i belive this would not have happened as both would have been suppervised and intervention before it came to that.

The point Im making here is that if a child is biting at this age they may be are being antagonised and if not then a simple extra suppervision to recognise when and why and intervention of these children playing together is required.

It is not alarming behaviour in my opinion at his age, just needs to be nipped in the bud. The nursery should be able to find the pattern of behaviour and not require early intervention team. I feel they are being a little bit complasant with their own interventions.

I take it it is the same child he has bitten each time?

redhead Alarm bells are ringing here about why your DS is biting only one certain child. My DS in YR r and 1 had a particular child who was always doing things on the sly to DS and all the school saw was his eventual anger and him shoving said child. Yes DS does have poor social communication but this was what lead to him not being able to deal with the situation and therefore the pushing/hitting the child NOT WHY he was doing it.

Best of luck.

I agree with replies about nursery not being very supportive to you both. Surely the staff there should be experienced enough to deal with such behaviours which in my mind is very normal at this age (although unacceptable).
My other worry is how his cousin has been allowed to get away with biting him for a whole year because you feel sorry for your sister in law! You say it has never bothered you! I would be apoplectic if another child was allowed to bite mine and certainly would put a stop to that immediately. (I would speak directly to the perpetrating child if I had witnessed it) It seems to me that your son is copying his cousins behaviour, he sees it as acceptable behaviour in your families eyes and is now a little confused as to why you take his toys away. Also having a sibling at this age is very hard for them. He needs mummy time, some rest from all the activity, some clear boundaries as to what is acceptable behaviour, new nursery with less hours/more understanding and a reward chart to start giving him a goal to work towards (the good behaviour you expect of him) Medical intervention - pah this nursery obviously don't have a clue how to handle this situation. xx

Oh yes and my 3 year old son only does 2 mornings a week at preschool and needs a nap when he comes home. He is very jealous of his 9 month old sister too & often hurts/tries to hurt her- mainly because he gets a really good reaction from us and I suspect a part of him actually wants to hurt her because she took his mummy away from him.

Honey, maybe it came out wrong when I said it didn't bother me that the cousin bit my child. What I meant was, I saw it as normal but unacceptable behaviour- and I've got a heart so obviously seeing my DS in any kind of distress or pain is horrible! But as we're all present when the kids are together, I have left the disciplining of the cousin up to my sister-in-law. She has felt very strongly about using the naughty step and uses it with him every time DS is bitten. I've not wanted to wade in and tell the cousin off as I'd rather focus on trying to teach my child how I expect him to behave rather than showing DS that biting gets lots of attention.

I understand now that you have said more! Didn't mean to imply you had no heart either! I only speak from experience of a friend of mine who allows her dd to be violent to my ds on playdates and then does nothing about it and doesn't even expect her to say sorry to him! He now cries and says he doesn't want to go there! I feel she expects me to step in and discipline her which on some occasions I have spoken directly to this girl as I cannot stand by and watch another mother allowing a child to be hit around and bullied!