Child-on-child sex abuse

[WorldinAction]

Ok, this isn't easy, but...

We had clear reports recently that our 4 y/o boy was sexually abused in the toilets at school.

The perpetrator is another boy of the same age, but from a different class. They apparently met in the loos at break-time, and were discovered by a member of staff in the compromising position - one boy had the other's penis in his mouth, 'cleaning it'.

WTF!

Our boy has no access to porn or anything, and nor is there ANY reason to think he could get ideas like this from us. I know nothing about the other boy, but the question must be where the heck did he get the idea of doing this? His parents must be mortified.

I have spoken to the head, and I think we sort of left it that 'do nothing/nothing can be done' sort of thing - the social services were phoned, apparently, and I gather that they would really only be concerned about the even if the perpetrator was much older than our boy.

I am horrified by this event, and don't know what to do. I have rung the NSPCC, and from that I will communicate by letter to the school to try to get a paper trail going, in case this has long-term repercussions.

What else can I do? What else should I do, can anyone think?

I'm not mum, I'm dad.

Thx for reading.

I'm so sorry that happened to your son. I'm surprised SS aren't more concerned, though; this sort of sexual roleplaying, in children that young, is a HUGE red flag for sexual abuse happening at home. The child experiencing the abuse will play it out with hir peers to try and normalise it, or to try and test in a safe environment whether it is, in fact, alright.

I very much hope that SS are investigating that poor child's family.

Is that what you're looking for, though? I'm not clear from your message what you want to happen. Long term repercussions for your son, do you mean? How will a paper trail help that? If you're worried about him, surely some counselling is the most appropriate thing? Or am I misunderstanding and you're worried about the other child?

Hi, no, I'm not worried per se about the other child - it's my boy that concerns me.

I don't know what I want to happen, other than for the incident to firmly recorded - that's what I mean by a 'paper trail'. Something to say it happened, and responsible people took responsible actions.

As for the other boy, it's horrific to think that he may be being abused at home - if he has no access to www stuff or games etc, and I'm told he doesn't, then one possible conclusion might be that he IS being abused himself, and is carrying out these acts on others at school. like I say, my only concern about that is the welfare of others. Anyway, that's an issue for his parents, not me.

My boy seems just his normal self, at least when he got home. He knows something's 'up', but other than a very gentle talk with him, we are carrying on as if nothing's happened, BUT I cannot get away from the fact that he has been interefered with.

I think I'll write a more formal letter to the school to ask to be kept in the loop where appropriate. Of course, if the other boy has 'issues', shall we say, then that's probably nobody's business but his family and the school's, not mine.

Hi,

If this was my child (mine are both pre-school age) and I wasn't getting the answers I needed from school, I would take him out.

If his parents are the ones abusing him then I very much hope SOMEONE thinks it's their business to look into it, so I hope social services follow up. This happened to a friend of mine's son at a similar age, with his slightly older cousin. She took the action you'd expect with regards to contact between her son and her SIL's daughter, but she also contacted SS about the girl's situation. And, yes, her stepfather was abusing her. She was 6.

Do you feel that the school dealt with it inappropriately? I still don't really understand what you're looking for - you know it happened, responsible people were informed. What would the long term repercussions be? Are you worried that your son was left unsupervised when he shouldn't have been? Or that someone, someday, will imply that you were complicit?

I'm desperately sorry for you and your son, it must have been a shock. At his age, I don't imagine a once-off event like that will be long-term damaging or anything.

It's very hard to say if the school is being effective - I don't think they have seen anything like it before, although according to the NSPCC officer I spoke to last night, child abuse such as has these characteristics is much more widespread than one can imagine, I'm afraid.

However, I'm no expert either, and I guess myself and partner would like some reassurances. How realistic that is I just don't know. For me, I feel I'm in a lonely place, but boy comes first, so I'll just have to roll with it.

Your last line chimes in with the NSPCC - they also said that the long-term outlook for my boy (heaven knows about the other) is probably positive.

I'm sorry if I'm not being clear about what I 'want' from this; It's not something I I ever thought would happen.

And it is distressing, but I can be a wuss at times!

Best wishes all.

Of course it's distressing, you're not a wuss, I would be in pieces.

And I'm not at all trying to be critical by asking you to clarify - I suspect that you don't actually know what you want to achieve, but you're seeking a way to assure yourself that you have Done Something To Make Sure This Never Happens Again. Because it's such an awful part about being a parent, the fact that sometimes bad things happen to our children and we can't protect them.

I think that by having a gentle talk with your son, and continuing to love and support him, you are in fact doing all you can, and that's a lot, even if you feel helpless at the moment.

does the other boy....(or yours) ...have older siblings?

i asl because i have teens and toddlers and its very,very difficult to keep more inappropriate language etc away from the littler ones. stuff like this is hilarious to teens and some may have got passed on or overheard

If this had happened to my DS I would want reassurances from the school that this would not happen again. This could mean that the other child would be supervised going to the toilet.

I would also be concerned that my DS would think this is "normal" or a good joke and try it on someone else. Not sure how to deal with that other than a simple chat with him to say "don't do that again". Problem is then you would be raising an issue when the best advice is as you are doing and ignore it.

As for the other boy, I really hope SS is looking into his homelife. Big red flag there.

I would raise it very definitely with the school as if this boy does things like that, he may well do it again to other children.

The school have a duty of care to their children and need to make sure the boy in question is supervised so he can't do it again.

Also, if no one does anything, the boy's behaviour will get worse.

Is it possible that this is an innocent incident of boys being boys? Has one of the boys seen their parent doing this? My ds hS come home with tales of Another class mate who saw his parents doing that to each other. I'm just not trying to diminish your shock at this but boys of his age are obsessed with their penis Nd do like to show them off. Perhaps both boys were innocent and didn't realise whT they were doing is not appropriate?

I really think that this case is more than just boys being boys. I would be mortified if this was to happen to my son.

I do agree that older siblings can have an influence on the young ones. I have two older sisters and I knew all about the pill by the time I was about 6 years old - they were 10 and 12 years older than me. I knew a lot about sex at a very young age.

Agree also about duty of care. Someone somewhere has to speak to the parents of the other boy and make sure that he knows that this is not acceptable.

Hi again. My boy has an older sister, but only by 14 months. They are close in play, with obvious differences and argue squabble in a normal manner (one that you might expect from childish people), but no question of the idea being talked about.

It funny that while I agree that there is a Big Red Flag flying over one of the local houses right now, I don't suppose the community will be kept informed of the outcome of any SS intervention. But yes, you'd hope to God that someone somewhere recognises for the other boy's sake that he might be an on-going victim of abuse in his own home. By whom, we have no idea. It's a bit like Sarah's (Payne) Law, where the details of pedophiles living in a community are made public. I know that's an extreme case, but I hope it gets the point across about the fine line between public interest/need to know, and private matters.

@DollyTwat...
We know for a fact that our boy has not seen us engaged in fellatio, nor on any computer screen for that matter. We run a pretty tight ship here, and I'd be astonished if it turned out that he had witnessed such a thing ANYWHERE.

No, I don't think it's that. But of course little boys do play with themselves, and we can't be sure that my lad wasn't showing off and the other boy somehow got the idea to put it in his mouth. Did my boy ask him? We don't know, and I just cannot tell.

It's such a mess. I don't suppose we'll ever know the whole truth. The more I think about it, the more tricky it seems to get. Did my boy encourage it to happen? Was he coerced? Is HE the one who needs SS?

Those are rhetorical questions, btw.

For now, we've said all we can about it to our little boy, and so that's how we have to leave it I suppose. I'll form some sort of letter to the head to outline my concerns as they apply to our boy.

WorldinAction, really sorry to hear you're going through what must be a distressing experience. I would also be horrified if this happened to my baby son in years to come, and certainly support what other readers have said concerning the safety of the other boy.

In an attempt to potentially reassure you a little, and in no way to belittle the incident, can I offer a personal experience? When I was a child, probably about 5 years old, my male playmate asked to put his "willy" between my legs, attempted to do so and didn't get very far. I was mystified and thought it was a pretty poor game. We went back to playing on the rope-swing in the garden. Looking back it was a slightly strange incident but in no way did it trouble me emotionally - it didn't mean anything to me and was not threatening. I hope to goodness he wasn't subjected to abuse in the home and have no reason to think he was. I always assumed he caught his parents at it and was imitating them. Could your child's situation be similarly innocuous?

The boy in my sons class has told everyone that he's seen his parents doing this. I'm 100% certain they have no idea.

My youngest son was caught showing his bottom to other boys as were the rest of the boys. He says it wasn't his idea and it was just fun. So I've put that down to lots of little boys showing off.

You may have a different situation here of course.

I find your some of your language a bit odd, OP. You've jumped to the conclusion that it's 'sex abuse', yet both boys are the same age, and describe the other boy as the 'perpetrator' but you've now said that it was the other boy who was performing the act. In most sexual abuse situations, it would be the victim who performs the act.

It could well be the case that the other parents are asking the same questions as you, wondering what on earth your boy had seen at home and whether you as parents are abusing him. I haven't read anything in your posts to suggest that the other boys is more or less responsible for the act than yours.

FWIW, I think that boys and girls of this age can indulge in exploratory behaviour like this without necessarily copying it from anywhere. Obviously you need to have discussions to ensure that it doesn't happen again, but unless it happens again, the boys will probably be happier moving on and forgetting about it.

First of all WIA, you have my sympathy, this is an awful thing to happen to your son.
I have a couple of questions for you that I don't feel you've answered clearly.

1)I hate to be a doom and gloom merchant but are you sure it's not your son that's being abused?

2)Are you sure that it isn't boys-being-boys getting out of hand?

I just say this as I recall when two of my friends sons (boys are best friends) discovered that they had penis'. They constantly dropped their trousers, ran around the garden with their willies proudly on display and even spent a while touching each others penis. (We assumed it was because it was easier than to examine their own). Now I know it didn't get to the stage you describe your son to have been in, but we giggled, let them have half an hour of "aren't willies great" and then spoke to them about appropriate behaviour. They were three/four (it would have been late 3). Could this situation be down to there not being an adult present to stop it before it became inappropriate?

If you've really checked and double checked then I think that were it me, the least I'd want is to talk through strategies with the school to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

Good luck! Sorry to not be more helpful.

They are both 4 years old. You are putting adult motives into this scenario. It sounds very innocent to me. Forget about it for a while, and then try and look at it from a different perspective. You could be the one doing the harm here escalating it like this.

Just have a chat with your son and say you don't touch or play with other people in this area, or let other people touch/play with you, ever. I'm sure as you were told about it, the other parents were also told about it...? I don't see what else the school could do. Or do you want him expelled for being a child abuser, at the age of 4. I'm shocked you'd even use that adult term for a 4 year old child.

I can see the problem-getting to the truth of this incident (was it just play, exploration, mimicing something seen, enacting genuine abuse or even what they say-'cleaning' with spit/mouth not exactly unknown around children is it, nor washing in the bathroom?) involves suggesting it was 'wrong' and sexualising it, which is what you don't want to do if it wasn't sexual. But surely school could advise (although if you want to follow the 'abuse' line then you should surely also expect them to check both households-I'm not implying anything at all there, just that from this one incident I'd find it odd if only the other boy were investigated).

I know it's very different, but have a much less alarming problem with my DS French kissing people when the cuddle him. We have just explained quietly that that he should only do this when he has grown up, and to other boys or girls who he likes a lot and has asked first, or who have asked him and if he wants to. Basically, stressed 'enthusiastic consent' without going into detail about 'sex', and then answered any questions. Seems to have worked OK, except that to him 'grown up' is primary school!

FWIW I'd go along with the boys being boys thing. Children are super exploratory, I was at toddlers recently and a mum of two boys was saying she keeps finding them both on the sofa playing with each others willies. I'd do just what you're doing, try not to make a big deal of it with your son and just make sure he knows how much you love him and that he can trust you to tell you anything. Sorry it's not that helpful but just wanted to try and offer some support...

Based on some personal childhood experience I would say the most important thing is to protect your child's emotional health and self-esteem. Open and relaxed communication if and when appropriate about sex and sexuality so he can protect himself. Protecting him from any sense of shame telling him what a good boy he is etc. Lots of physical attention - hugs etc to affirm his healthy physical sense of self. Just in case - he will probably shrug off the incident but if you are concerned the above can't harm. I would consider counselling. Agree it could be a red flat for some form of abuse or neglect at home, not necessarily sexual though. Could be eg a lack of appropriate physical attention...but equally might not be... not much help on that one I'm afraid! good luck.

Some well thought-out replies there, thanks, but sadly some of you appear to not have read the details correctly, or are deliberately mis-interpreting what I said - with quite bizarre results.

I am not going to repeat anything, nor post again, as I have a feeling that some here think that white is black and that black is white.

Thank you to the more compassionate posters that were able to offer practical advice.

Over and out.

:)