Child-on-child sex abuse

[WorldinAction]

Ok, this isn't easy, but...

We had clear reports recently that our 4 y/o boy was sexually abused in the toilets at school.

The perpetrator is another boy of the same age, but from a different class. They apparently met in the loos at break-time, and were discovered by a member of staff in the compromising position - one boy had the other's penis in his mouth, 'cleaning it'.

WTF!

Our boy has no access to porn or anything, and nor is there ANY reason to think he could get ideas like this from us. I know nothing about the other boy, but the question must be where the heck did he get the idea of doing this? His parents must be mortified.

I have spoken to the head, and I think we sort of left it that 'do nothing/nothing can be done' sort of thing - the social services were phoned, apparently, and I gather that they would really only be concerned about the even if the perpetrator was much older than our boy.

I am horrified by this event, and don't know what to do. I have rung the NSPCC, and from that I will communicate by letter to the school to try to get a paper trail going, in case this has long-term repercussions.

What else can I do? What else should I do, can anyone think?

I'm not mum, I'm dad.

Thx for reading.

DO NOT AGREE THAT THIS IS A BUM OR WILLY BOYS THING! This is a 'child Protection' issue. Both boys were in the toilets, therefore one of them knew it was not right and had to be in a private place. Something similar happened to a little boy in my sons school throughout infants and he now has social/emotional issues. Even though small children aren't 'sexual' in the same way adults are, they instinctively know this is wrong and that's why it's very rare for this situation to arise. I would contact SS again and ask for it to be investigated, then I would seriously consider removing my child from the school. I don't think instances like this are one offs. Sorry if I've frightened you or not what you want to hear ... just my opinion on a very serious matter.

We have had a similar situation ongoing for the past 3 years in my sons school.

2 boys in my sons class in Reception were caught numerous times in the toilets and wendy house coercing the girls to show them their genitalia. The boys trousers and underwear was also down. It appeared to be 3 girls they had been caught with at that time. The Girls parents weren't happy with the way the school dealt with it, and more parents got involved, including myself. We were worried about how these boys were being treated at home, what they were seeing but mainly how the school dealt with it. As a parent of a boy I was concerned that the boys would see it wasn't being dealt with properly and think they could join in too.

The school finally got SS involved and bought rules into place ie the boys were supervised at all times. They also sent a nurse into the class to give a talk on touching etc.

The parents of the 3 girls first involved eventually took their girls out of the school,as one of the boys wouldn't stop the behaviour , and wasn't being supervise well enough. His Mothers view is sadly that her son wouldn't do that and he can't do any wrong.

Year 1 they were split up and the 2nd boys behaviour in general greatly improved, the 1st boy had a couple more instances of this happening. His behaviour is 'trying' to say the least.

We're now in year 2 the boys are both in the same class, my sons class. I am a Dinner Lady and have seen Boy 1 pull his trousers down in the playground at an older girl whilst she was being held by another boy. His behaviour is terrible, he has no respect for teachers, friends, school mates etc. To be honest he is completely out of control.

Sadly the school cannot do much, his parents attitude is that her son is an angel. All the school can do is suspend him for 2 days max.
Then he comes back and it starts all over again.

The mother of 2nd boy is a single mum, with a younger child , but seems to have taken SS and parenting classes advice. Her sons behaviour isn't great but in my opinion and from what I've seen he is egged on by the 1st boy .

As shocking as Sexual behaviour seems to be in children this young sadly the schools seem to be able to do little about it, and either SS don't care or it is so common that it doesn't worry them.

I find it very

I'm sorry you see some here posting as offering no advice and as painting black as white.

The problem is, though, that many of us can't see how you are so certain about what was going on, and every single one of us who has cared for children long-term knows how easy it is to totally misjudge what is motivating them.

In this case you know only that your son had his penis in another boy's mouth. You don't know if this was in any way a simulation of a blow job or, if it was, what the source of that knowledge was. You don't know if it was a repeated incident (like the horror story above) or just a one off, if it was planned, spontaneous, who initiated it or if it was coerced. And you clearly really need to know because the answers to these questions affect absolutely how you handle your son and support him. And there is much sympathy here for you and fear for him

But you seem to be assuming you have the answers when your posts and the OP suggest potentially unnecessary leaps to conclusions. There is a deal of practical advice being given even by those who are sceptical-it's find a way of finding out what actually went on before you put your son through the terrors of explaining he's been abused and accept that, if this means an investigation, you too will be investigated (since he is not protected by an investiagtion which accepts a father's word that we 'run a tight ship' as sufficient proof).

I do think it's more likely that the other boy is the one possibly being abused outside of school, since he's the one putting the willy in his mouth (which is presumably the scenario when a small boy is abused in this way - an adult makes him put the adult's penis in his mouth, and perhaps tells him it's for 'cleaning').

I think someone needs to check up on this other little boy actually, to make sure he's ok. Where did he learn to put penises in his mouth?

It's possibly he just thought of it himself I suppose, but I think the school should think about bringing in someone who's trained in interviewing small children to find out where he got the idea. If he is being abused, then he needs protection.

Have re-read all your posts. I still think you're over-reacting and putting a big flag above your own family, not just the other boy's family. I'm sure that's not what you want.

If you put up questions you need to have an open mind to the responses, otherwise what's the point? Do you just want your view reconfirmed?

My family has some experience in this, so I will give you my honest views. (I have namechanged for this, so I don't get outed in my normal name)

The two boys in question are 4 - not adults, but 4. They are little boys. There is nothing sexual in it, so please don't turn it into sexual abuse on the child's level.

Occasionally, little boys do disgusting things, and it doesn't always mean that there is a problem at home. Of course there is a very small chance that it could indicate abuse in the home of either one of the boys, but to drag your son and the other boy through the SS because of one incident would be terrible for all involved. If this was following other related events, then obviously, it would indicate a possible problem.

If the school felt there were ongoing issues, believe me, they would be taking it seriously. If they have no other concerns, they will, understandably not want to take it any further, but if they are worth anything, they will now be watching closely.
I think your actions should be to talk to the school and make sure they are watching both boys to make sure there is no further trouble. If they can't reassure you, then maybe a change of school would be the right thing to do.

Last summer, my family were dragged through the system backwards because of a similar accusation. After several months of both families being assessed, watched and interviewed (every 2 weeks for 3 months), an older, more experienced SW came to visit to tell us that the accusations (similar to your sons case) were ridiculous, and the lady who took the case to child protection level had done the wrong thing completely. There were no signs of abuse, and the SW admitted that what happened with these two boys was normal (by all means not an everyday occurence, but normal nontheless). The case was dropped immediately.
The little boy who was made a victim (by his parents) is still struggling with the fact that he is a victim, and has gone from a happy, carefree little boy to being scared of doing anything with his friends, in case it turns out to be wrong again.

I think for your families best interests, you really need to take a step back from this, but I imagine from your other posts that you won't like what I'm saying.

I think it is ridiculous to say that a boy putting another boys willy into his mouth is just 'boys will be boys'.

No way. It may not be that this other boy is being abused (although that would be my first instinct) but could be something that was witnessed by him.

Would still be a huge thing for me and I would want it followed up properly, SS or whatever.

What if this other boy is being abused and nobody bothered to follow it up because of it being put down to 'boys will be boys'. I don't know of any young boys who would do this. Flashing each other their bits when they are discovering them may be 'normal' but putting another boys willy in your mouth at age 4 is not normal behaviour.

Hi WorldinAction - I hope you are still there. We went through something similar to you. A bit different - my DD was badly bruised in what I would describe as a sexual way by another child at age 3. I think it's just horrifying when it happens to you. And there doesn't seem to be any real help. I found the NSPCC gave good advice. Was advised by the GP to try and forget it happened. I also wondered whether the perpetrator had been abused. His parents decided to "pray it wasn't true". Fortunately my DD does seem to have forgotten now and I have just instilled into her to keep away from the other child, as she's now at school with him. Also have conversations with her about her private parts being private. Don't know what to say really - just that I know how upsetting it is and how utterly powerless you feel.

I don't think you need to worry about getting a paper trail going. All schools have chid protection registers and this incident will have been recorded. On its own I doubt this event would be considered evidence for sexual abuse, but any firther incidents or other signs which teachers and TAs should be trained to look out for will also be recorded and the child protection co-ordinator at school would make the decision of when to inform social services. Since you say that social services were informed it sounds like your school is very on the ball about this sort of thing. I know there are some high profile cases which hit the headlines of social services failing to protect children, but everyday social workers are doing their job and protecting many vulnerable children.

It is possible that the other child was abused, but there could also be an innocent explanation. Their explanation of cleaning it is interesting. Imagine if one child found some porn and asked an adult about it. "Why is that mans willy in her mouth?" Flustered adult replies "Oh it's nothing. She's just cleaning it"! Is this so far fetched? Adults do come up with silly explanations when put on the spot. I very stupidly told my DS when he found condoms in the bedside table that they were willy warmers! And while I would be totally mortified if he repeated this at school or even worse pinched one to wear one winter! I hope no one would interpret this as unusual sexual knowledge. In fact the explanation could be even more innocent. Does either child own or are close to someone who owns a dog? Because then they would definitly seen the dog clean its penis by licking it.

There could be many explanations, but I think you need to go and have a talk with the chid protection co-ordinator at the school. Explain how upset you are, although I would avoid demonising the other child, and ask for more details of exactly what happened and how the situation will be monitored from now on.