Feel like I'm fucking up my 3 year old already

[bicarbonateofsoda]

He's lovely, articulate, and we escaped the terrible twos. But now he's cheeky, stubborn and just refuses to do what he's told until we have a big row about it. He also wakes every night and comes into our bed, and sometimes refuses to go to sleep there and we end up having big nighttime rows.

I try to give warnings eg count to three or X consequence will happen (consequences usually are threats like "or we won't go to the park", "or I'll throw your digger in the bin"). So rarely followed through.

Refuses to put pants on after going to toilet - says he can't which is nonsense, he can dress himself perfectly well. Ends up in big shouting rows until he does it, threats of going back to nappies etc. When I really lose my rag he puts them on quickly.

I make him feel guilty eg "you've woken up mummy and daddy and your sister and now we're all sad because of you", and I hate myself for it but it just comes out. It doesn't even work.

I shout all the time and lose my temper. I try to be clear but he just doesn't care. Then ages later he says something which makes me think my words have sunk in hurt him and I feel terrible - but if he hasn't responded to what he's been told it seems like he doesn't care so I escalate to these threats etc as they, at the time, are seemingly ineffectual.

I got "How to Talk ..." but can't seem to relate it to real life/to a child of his age. Just feel lost, like I'm emotionally screwing him up, like the boundaries are blurry for him and I can't control myself enough or think clearly enough to make them clearer for him. He's not even that bad, he's just 3, and wilful, and it doesn't matter how furious I get he doesn't care/listen, nothing I say makes him listen to me. I think it'll get worse :(

Oh crumbs I remember going through this with my dd1 (now 5) - so so similar to what you are saying. I felt like I was losing control - I well remember the getting angry at night thing too.

How are you with other things? A lot of my anger towards dd1 was because I was having a really bad time at the time and was very stressed and unhappy. She was playing up terribly but my not dealing with it well just made things worse.

Three is a really hard age (am dreading it with dd2 who will be three in December). But if it helps, despite everything, dd1 is a very well-adjusted, polite, kind, friendly and intelligent 5-year-old so I didn't manage to screw her up!

PS don't feel bad about giving in to him and doing things like putting his pants on for him if he won't. It won't have any long-term detrimental effect, I am sure!

And how old is his sister?

Oh I just had to post here - I have no constructive help for you - but I am so there with you - I have a 4 year old DD (on Saturday) who is really an angel and the most gorgeous of girls yet I constantly nit pick at her and expect so much of her and hate myself as words come out of my mouth yet I still do it. I regularly cry at night cause I have been so horrible to her. I sometimes thinks it borders on emotional abuse but she tells me she loves me, we hug and laugh at other times and she seems to be a well adjusted child who is liked by her pears. We are just all doing our best as I am sure you are - the fact that you are bothered by your rows shows that you care. We are not perfect, nor are our children so try not to beat yourself up to much and just try to enjoy the good bits and know that the bad bits are normal. Hugs.

I would agree with Stranded

Neither of mine had the terrible twos but being 3. I think they get fustrated because we expect them to be big boys/girls but really they are still very young.

You really have to pick your battles, or you will spend the next few months shouting. If he wont put his pants on just do it for him without saying a word. A shouting match over a pair of pants isnt worth it.

How about a reward chart? give him a smiley face for everything good he does/when he does as you ask, and then get him a treat when he has say 10 smiley faces.

From your post it sounds like you're not getting much sleep, no wonder you feel like you do.

Maybe ask him why he comes into your room at night? Is there something in his room that he doesnt like? Maybe use reward chart for this also? Every whole night in bed gets a treat?

I'm going through the same thing with my 7 year old. I feel I have really high standards for his behaviour and my own behaviour is going out of the window. I think the thing to remember is they do not think like adults so we shouldn't give them adult motives for everything they do. That's really hard when they're bright as buttons and seem older than their years, but they're emotionally immature and so young. I remember a friend shouting at her 3 year old all the time. I could see the child just switched off and in the end I couldn't be around them any more it was so stressful. Do you find it worse when you are tired? When I make a huge effort to get lots of sleep, even if it means ignoring the things that need to be done, I find I can cope better, I therefore don't react badly and low and behold his behaviour gets better. Think I'd better go to bed early tonight!

The only thing I would say is that you have to think about your threats and then follow through. It is so hard, and I have learnt from experience. I nearly always say what I mean - ie, if you do that we will go home - he does it we go home. At such a yound age I make the consequence immediate - for examples if he throws toys will be put away, if he hits we go home, if tantrums he willd definitely not get what he wants. It is bloody hard, but once you start it really does help behaviour because they know you mean business! Good luck - and like us all parenting is bloody hard!

We're going through this with ds (almost 4) at the moment.

Defiance isn't such a huge button-pusher with me, although it's intensly annoying and grinds me down, but dh just can't stand it and is getting really worked up about it.

What we're doing at the moment is:

• Counting to 5. But repeating all through the count what the consequences are going to be if ds doesn't do what he's told and making it clear that it's his choice, eg "do you really want to go to bed right now? Because it's your choice. If you don't do X you're choosing to go straight to bed"

• Happy pot and Sad pot. If he does something good then he gets a marble in his happy pot and 10 marbles = a treat. If he's defiant/naughty then one of the big threats is losing a marble from his happy pot to his sad pot. 3 marbles in his sad pot and his train track gets put away for a day

• Trying to avoid threats that we won't follow through with. The marble pot is a godsend with this because ds has a treat in mind that he really, really wants so the threat of losing a marble is a biggie.

• Giving him as much of a chance as possible to do the right thing, so lots of warnings and the counting to 5 can take quite a long time if I feel he's coming round to doing what he's told.

I think it's just his age tbh. All my friends' children this age are pretty much the same.

You're a great mum and you're not fucking him up. This Too Will Pass (well I bloody hope so)

I know how bad you feel. Three is definitely worse than two. And bicarb, I know how rotten it is to feel so guilty and defeated. When will it end? I used to beg the same question of my parents who were utterly baffled by my ds's behaviour. It's exhausting, demoralising, makes you think you're a bad person because you simply can't cope patiently all the time with the constant defiance. It's horrible.

It's so hard when you guiltily resolve each night when they're in bed to be more patient the next day. It lasts for about an hour and then they just won't stop being defiant, obstructive and generally totally uncooperative. Meanwhile, you've got to be somewhere, do stuff and get on with life but every single time you try, your ds throws a spanner in the works.

But, looking back, I truly believe it's not really a matter of fault on their part per se. My ds was and still is unbelieveably defiant. I would get him to nursery and then sob into the steering wheel after dropping him off - I was just so sick of the obnoxious conflict and couldn't see a way out of it.

He was like that from 22 months (very angry kid) until recently - he's 5.5 years old now. I remember so many times trying to hug him out of his fantastic rages when I would dare to ask him to get his shoes on or stop watching telly to go on a playdate. Awful.

He still has his moments but to be honest, I think he gets now what is actually expected of him i.e. to get dressed, that I won't turn left when driving at his say so etc.

I think there's a simple mismatch between their needing to control and be in charge and their developing an understanding of why certain things need to be done. I suspect it's generally a matter of waiting it out, I'm afraid.

But meanwhile, you can keep up the steady drip drip of disapproval of his behaviour that you think is unacceptable. You must give meaning to your threatened punishments. They won't change behaviour immediately but he must know that you mean business too.

I'm not saying your ds has oppositional defiance disorder (too young and it's unlikely anyway) but this book has lots of good tips on coping with every day defiance.

Good luck and remember to vent spleen on MN!

And if you're losing your rag, go and punch your pillow. Really belt it. It helped me a lot.

Also, have you tried just making a request like, "Put your pants on now," and just leaving him to it. Go off and get on with something else. If he doesn't do it, ask him again. Then just do it for him all briskly - if you need to go out or it's vital he gets his pants on.

Often ignoring seemed to dampen the rages with my ds.

Anyway, I don't know if it'll work but I was willing to give anything a try.

Another hard thing to deal with was that nobody seemed to really believe how difficult life can be with such a defiant child in the mix. I felt like I was walking on eggshells the whole time and friends would just dismiss my upsetment because my ds was clearly normal. Apparently to them. Luckily my mum and dad were witnesses to his behaviour and could vouch for my not going mad!

Oh, I've hijacked your thread now. Sorry!

actually the pillow one is a good one for both of you. When you've got to stand off point start a pillow fight with him - you'll relax, he'll relax and then you can move on.

Try it it really works

And your not a bad mum or you wouldn't be here opening your heart and asking advice.

Thank you all.

He really isn't that bad. Trying to be objective, the worst things are answering back (eg when told to stop clambering on furniture he might turn on us and say "You don't say that to me") and maybe when he's overexcited or tired he will physically refuse to stay still and listen to an instruction. Mostly he just doesn't actually hear anything, the words don't sink in at all. I really think it's fine and normal but because he's so sharp and talks so well I expect way more than he's able to give. So he's constantly failing and I'm constantly reminding him of it. But actually it's me that's failing to let him be a child and failing to be fair in my expectations.

Some helpful thoughts and suggestions though. Thank you, I will try to think through this and get things sorted out for us both.

Ticklebug - am so glad I read your response to OP! Everything you have written describes my relationship with my dd. So glad am not the only one.
Bicarb - thank you for posting this in the first place

I'm reading Playful Parenting at the moment. It feels like how to talk but without quite so much actual talking, which my 3yo DS hates. We had a very productive wrestle yesterday! I completely agree that age 3 is harder than 2 - especially when I'm tired. Maybe you could work on the bedtimes first and then would have more energy for the rest of it. The other thing I forget with DS is that he still wants to be a baby sometimes - and that isn't a bad thing.

I really feel for you as we are having similar problems with our three year old. It started with her just being incrediably difficult with me, making me feel like it was something personal or me just being a rubbish mum, but over the last couple of weeks she has started to misbehave with my husband and other family members. She is as good as gold at nursery though, but is making life at home pretty bloody miserable at the moment and causing rows between me and my hubby as we are both so stressed out and tired.
I think the main thing is to try not to blame yourself for your son's behaviour. I have been taking my daughters behaviour very personally as I feel like I should be able to control her but at the end of the day she is a person and is at the age where she is testing the boundaries. Just try and be consistent with the punishments etc and hopefully (eventually) things will get better - at least that is what people keep telling me and what I am hoping for!

Phew - also sounds very familiar here (also have a 3 year old). He's always been somewhat fesity but I've been finding it harder to deal with in the last few months (partly due to the arrival of his sister 8 months ago but I think also due to the fact that, as lots of others have said, I suddenly expect more of him). I hate listening to myself being coo-ey and sweet when talking to dd then sounding crotchety and critical when talking to ds. He must hear it too and wonder what he's done wrong.

One thing that I've found slightly liberating was the suggestion in 'How to talk'.. about describing the situation rather than issuing a command or asking them to do something. I now say 'oh look, your socks are on the floor' and he's far more likely to pick them up than if I directly ask him to. And speaking like that makes me feel more relaxed, rather than feeling guilty at constant nagging. Not sure if that helps at all - I found it remarkably useful for something so simple.

Another thing I've been trying to do is ask him why he's doing something rather than just tell him not to. Sometimes there's a good reason (usually not)and we can reach a compromise.

I guess both these strategies hand some control back to them.

go to the park together- run like crazy!!! one life - live it!!!

Ah, I feel your pain. They are tricky aren't they. Mine has just about come out the other side- almost 4. He is a lot easier, although still challenging at times.

Repeat to yourself "I am the adult", "I am the adult" etc etc (!). Also, I read somewhere however awful they're being kids are doing the best they can. Try to remember that. Don't get into arguments with 3 year olds- you are in charge. They can catch you off guard when you're tired but generally if they answer back and are rude then tell them so and don't get into the whys and wherefores.
Hard when you are the prime care giver and boundaries can get blurred- time for more adult company methinks!

3 year old and a new baby here. recipe for disaster & guilt galore!

Oh yes, how old is sister? That could be as far as you need to think if she is baby!

all sounds totally normal to me ... or else i have screwed up my ds too ... he's 4.5 now and beginning to be easier to talk to, explain stuff to, rationalise with. But 3 is still SO young, try to give each other a break and have fun.

Oh, i did ask the doctor once if i should get ds referred for a hearing test as he just did not seem to hear me most of the time ... doctor smiled indulgently and said he's a 3 year old boy, none of them listen....

Relax (easier said than done!), it sounds entirely normal.

I also found the whole 'How to talk' book very difficult to relate to. My children are 4 and 6 and if say they were arguing about a toy and having a fight if I said 'Oh what I see is you want the toy, and he is playing with it but I think you can sort it out'

It would result in them having a full on fight and some-one biting/scratching/punching each other.

Much the same as 'milk belongs in the fridge' cue children looking at me blankly.

I would be really interested at what age it might work.

I have found counting to 3 with consequences reaaly works for us. As per 1 2 3 magic book.
Very simple not overly preachy very clear my children know what is happening and what the consequences might be.

As you can see from the posts above you are not alone. There are two and a half years between my two DSs. I found my DS1 was quite challenging for a long time after his brother was born. I found I felt a lot better if I spent some time each evening cuddling him after I'd read him stories. It somehow made me feel that no matter what I'd nagged him about earlier in the day we'd ended on a high note. Good luck

This is all sounding so familiar and I am still feeling guilty over the other day when I shouted so much I actually felt faint afterwards :( This sounds so familiar:
"Mostly he just doesn't actually hear anything, the words don't sink in at all. "
he is just in another world a lot of the time.
He is a lovely boy, so kind and patient with his sister, and in general good, but he regularly just doesn't do as he's told, otr he whines or tantrums and I just cannot cope with it. I seriously started to worry earlier this week that I was starting to screw him up, and what I was doing was emotioanl abuse (I have also in the past started doing the "Mummy is grumpy because she got no sleep last night, I am starting to be ill through lack of sleep, you must let me sleeo") and am really really trying to change. One thing we're doing as well, too early to tell if it;s had any effect on behaviour but we did it for other reasons was to radically cut down on his TV. In fact I don;t think he's watched it since Tuesday (maybe wednesday :o). He hasn't missed it. But if it's on there are tantrums if we turn it off