How can I help my 4yo DS manage his emotions?

[cathbath]

I really need help with my DS... he has just turned 4 and his behaviour (and our relationship) is really degenerating.

DS often gets giddy/silly and throws himself around or loses control. Sometimes he wakes up in that mood and we have a horrible day - but most often it's a response to us asking him to do something (such as get dressed, brush teeth etc - all the everyday things that easily become a battleground). When I try to talk to him or get him to calm down he just talks over me - repeating gibberish over what I am saying. If DH or I try to put him in a time-out to calm down, he hits.

The hitting has got worse recently. He is not malicious or deliberately destructive - but he lashes out when he is frustrated or angry. He is big for his age, and when he is in his 'silly mood' (as he calls it), he is capable of doing dangerous things such as banging the stairgate into me when I am climbing the stairs carrying my 19mo.

We moved house over the summer, and DS has started at a new preschool. Although he missed his old friends at first, he seems to have settled in well and enjoys it there. However, he has had some sessions recently where he has been rude, refused to do what they ask, and has actually hit his teachers when they tried to put him in a time-out. DS did have some problems at his previous nursery, but he has never hit a teacher before... I am devastated.

I am going in tomorrow to talk to the teachers about it. They want to try and find a consistent approach to work towards at preschool and at home. They seem so caring and lovely, but I am feeling completely worn down with things at the moment and not sure what to do any more.

We've tried time-outs, reward charts, taking away toys... nothing really gets through to him when he is in that mood. I am a SAHM and don't get much of a break from this, so do get very wound up at times (though I know shouting is totally counter-productive). Mainly our approach has been to physically remove him from the situation, take him to his room etc, and this is when the hitting usually occurs.

I have recently read 'How To Talk...' and also Alfie Kohn's 'Unconditional Parenting'... which made me reconsider the approach I was taking. But I'm unsure as to how to apply it to our situation... any advice or moral support would be so much appreciated.

You sound exhausted and frustrated, you poor thing.
It sounds as though he may be partly reacting to the changes in your lives. I'd be surprised if any kid could experience a house and nursery move without it affecting them. But he's at an age where you can at least discuss his feelings and help him to feel supported.

One thing that works for me when my DS is distracted and I want him to listen is getting down to his level, holding his arm and looking at him while I talk firmly. He is more likely to attend to what I say then. Also I say a firm "I'm talking!" when he interrupts, which immediately shuts him up.

Does your DS watch a lot of fast-moving tv? I find this makes my DS (same age) more hyper and less manageable. We have cut his viewing down to 30 mins a day at a specific time, which makes a huge difference.

How To Talk is an excellent book, but I've found it takes a fair amount of practice to work out how to make it work in your context. But it is WELL worth the effort.

Also at age 4 boys get a massive testosterone surge, so that may be influencing his behaviour.

SpeedyGonzalez, thank you. DS's teachers think he must be unsettled after the move, and he is going through a particularly difficult patch at the moment. It doesn't help that we've got workmen in the house and lots of stress with having the bathroom done.

He does watch quite a lot of TV - mainly CBeebies. It is probably not helping in the long term, like you say. He gets bored easily and needs almost constant input to keep him from climbing the walls.

When DS is in a calm mood he is lovely - we read together and have lots of conversations. He is very caring towards his younger sister (when he's not throwing himself around). I'm just worried that his mood swings are so extreme - it's like a flick of a switch and he becomes impossible.

All this is affecting my confidence... I feel like I need to refocus and find new ways of doing things.

Cath, I just want to send a bit more support! Sounds like you've got a hell of a lot on at the moment, which will certainly make things challenging for all of you.

Parting thoughts - re TV, it's certainly worth cutting down the amount of TV he watches as an experiment so that you can understand whether it's affecting him, and, if so, how it's affecting him. The job for you is to find something non-screen-based to replace it with! Maybe listening to a story on CD?

Perhaps you could start by spending quality time with him sharing whatever 'replacement activity' you think of, to help motivate him to enjoy it. Then once he's 'into' it, you can see whether he'll do it on his own while you get on with whatever you need to do while he's usually watching telly.

I'm off to bed now but will be back onto your thread.

Thanks for the replies - I'm glad I had the courage to post here at last! The visit to the preschool was very positive, and I'm feeling a lot better about things now.

The teachers don't seem to be concerned about DS's behaviour - they say he's just a normal, spirited 4 year old boy. The hitting incident was nearly 3 weeks ago now and he hasn't done it again since (he did feel pretty bad about it afterwards).

They said he is often slow to do what they ask (and sometimes does the opposite!), but they feel he is still getting to know them and testing boundaries. He is also a strong character and finds it hard to back down once he's got himself into a corner.

Apparently he is settling in really well though, and they were all so positive about him. They said he responds really well to stickers, and also loves being given responsibilities, such as helping to pour the drinks. They said he might respond to being given more responsibilities at home too - such as helping me to change DD's nappy, bringing me things etc.

They said they've found it's best to ignore some behaviours and not come down too hard on him for every little thing. They said he will learn how to behave in time - he is still only 4.

I feel like I have some positive things to work towards now. I think I was starting to see my DS as 'the enemy', and fighting for control, which was really damaging our relationship.

Speedy, I really get what you're saying about the 'replacement activity'. I turned the TV off today, and we played and did puzzles for most of the morning (he ended up completing a big one on his own with minimal input from me). He did start to get a bit silly towards lunchtime, but I didn't rise to it and kept things calm. Now having a break as he is at preschool and DD is sleeping. :)

• hunger
• tiredness
• dehydration

-needing a wee (?!)

all the above can make me (and dd) 'flick a switch' into a wobbly out of control person. I'd make sure the above needs are definitely addressed before you do the tactics mentioned above...

(agree about not too much telly too - though v guilty of it here)

My nearly 5 year old has also started getting very silly/giddy and doing dangerous things whenever she gets the chance ... I am always a step behind predicting what she's going to start experimenting with next - so I always end up finding myself to have been irresponsible!
I think too that the Alfie Kohn approach and the How to Talk approach are brilliant. But I find it hard to work out how to put Alfie Kohn into practice. Particularly when you're shattered yourself.
I must say I find being outside the best way to keep things manageable (how am I going to cope in the winter? - thick clothes?!). DD ends up doing the most hair-raising climbing but at least like that she's not beating up ds or devising new ways to get at the cleaning fluids!
In terms of how to apply Alfie Kohn and co., I find that if I just show love (eg. give her a hug) in response to her tantrums she often doesn't feel taken seriously. But, I have had some success with generally trying to talk to her more like I would talk to an adult friend. I can remember as a kid feeling very patronised or misunderstood. Once I got a really relieved look from her, when I really made an effort to talk to her like I would talk to an adult friend.
I'm trying to pull right back, give her an awful lot of rope - if she thinks it's warm enough to go out in a t-shirt when it's raining, that's her judgement, if she thinks she can climb that high in that tree, then she will be able to judge herself. I often get horrified looks from other adults: particularly me not telling her off for being wild or for being really loud on the bus or whatever. But I've decided I don't care. I act quietly, calmly and respectfully to other people and I think she will learn more by imitating that, than if I use my "authority" to force her to behave as I would. I try to give her as much time as possible, so that we're not under time pressure more than necessary. Jesper Jules "Competent Child" I find another good one on this subject - with quite a few concrete examples. I'll be watching this thread for more tips ... help please! :)

cathbath you gave a clue when you said he gets silly nr. lunchtime maybe it's a blood sugar thing and he needs to eat and drink more often? Also look at his wheat consumption it gives some people uncontrollable anger.

ppeatfruit have you got any more info on the wheat consumption point. An issue I want to look at in ds - Thanks

My DS is like this and it is nearly always down to tiredness. It manifests itself most at bedtimes when he starts doing laps of the house.

Bedtimes used to be terrible, with him still running around at gone 9pm. But they have got better recently.

I have no idea who to manage it most of the time! It makes me irrationally annoyed!

He's in reception.

However, I do try to limit his TV as I think this makes it worse. No TV before school, can watch TV when he gets home but not after his bath.

He also need LOTS of physical activity, but sometimes we can overdo it and it gets worse.

I'm really hoping it is something he will grow out of (clings desperately). I'm pinning my hopes on him learning to read and becoming more involved in school. I figure when he has more things to mentally stimulate him that involve concentrating and sitting still (like reading) he might calm down a little.

We certainly found getting him to engage in things that kept him physically still were more effective. Board games, jigsaws, cards etc were better than books which are a bit more passive.

I find trying to deal with it rarely works as he is irrational by that point so there is no talking to him anyway.

DS2 is only 18 months but already you can see he has a very different temperament. Much happier to sit and play, much more inclined to cuddle up when tired.

Neverright thanks for being interested IME sometimes wheat (any type) can cause exhaustion, irrationally bad tempers, constip., my DH is a totally diff person when he's off it, you could google wheat allergies.

rantyknickers - that sounds so like my DS - I think tiredness is definitely to blame most of the time. We had a great day today, full of activities that kept him engaged (hooray!). Then just after 6pm as DH walked in the door, DS suddenly lost it. Perhaps it's a combination of tiredness and overexcitement at seeing his dad. DS was doing laps round the house, throwing things down the stairs, hitting DH who was trying to deal with him...

It is like he's totally lost it and there is no reasoning with him. Trying to get his PJs on and do his teeth is such a battle. We are trying to pre-empt it by getting him ready for bed earlier and then having a story and quiet time in his room... but it doesn't always work as he has often lost it by 6pm.

He is so active all day that I think he would benefit from still having an afternoon nap, but of course he won't take one. Thankfully, once we actually manage to get him into bed (usually 7 or 70.30pm), he goes out like a light.

DD is 19 months and is a completely different temperament to DS. I feel guilty sometimes that I so enjoy being with DD and love taking her to playgroups etc, whereas DS has always worn me out!

Simic - I'd love to discuss Alfie Kohn some more as I really agreed with him, but found it difficult to put into practice. I think I'm beginning to 'get it' though. DS responds so well to being given more slack to make decisions (within reason!), and being spoken to more like an adult.

I was so scared by how things degenerated recently. The biggest breakthrough I've had in the past two days is realising that I do want to have a good and loving relationship with my DS, no matter what silly things he does. I think the best thing is not getting angry - just being firm and calm, and not letting things descend further into shouting or time-outs. Hopefully I can keep this up!

ppeatfruit - thanks, I'll look into wheat allergies. DS does eat a lot of wheat... and was recently in hospital overnight, which turned out to be due to constipation.

Your comment "We've tried time-outs, reward charts, taking away toys... nothing really gets through to him when he is in that mood" really rings true for my DS too. He gets giddy/silly just the same and we have constant battles over everyday tasks like putting on shoes and cleaning teeth.

He is also four but has just started in reception. His teacher asked us to come in yesterday after school to talk about his "anger management issues". DS has been on the sad cloud several times for hitting other children and even was sent to see the head teacher on one occasion.

The class teacher seems very supportive and not judgmental at all which is a relief (we'd already warned her before he started that this behaviour was likely to occur) and has suggested that we all encourage him to use a 'calm down space', not a time-out punishment but somewhere he can go and look at a book quietly when he feels like he's getting out of control.

I've also read "How to talk..." and I am absolutely certain I give him plenty of positive attention and I make a point of acknowledging every little bit of desirable behaviour (and often the just not-bad behaviour too!) TV is not an issue as he doesn't watch very much. Tiredness does come into it sometimes but he can still be giddy/aggressive even after a good 12hr night's sleep so certainly not the cause.

I used to think that he needed more physical/outdoor activity but I now think that sometimes that can rev him up even further. What generally seems to benefit him is to sit and read a book together this tends to calm him very effectively- not always possible to implement when you're driving and he's subjecting his big sister to a beating in the back of the car!

When he has done something wrong I just don't know how to discipline him effectively- all the standard things like reward charts/time out/putting away toys only serve to rev him up into further outbursts without any long term impact on behaviour.

I do think it's really important though, as you say, to make sure my relationship with him is not affected by his (sometimes truly atrocious) behaviour. I tell him that no matter how badly he behaves I will always love him (debbie giori book "No matter what" good story for this) but I'd rather spend more time doing fun things with him rather than enduring bad behaviour.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that we have to hang on in there and keep on calmly and firmly reinforcing the boundaries and just fervently hope that one day it WILL sink in!

Good luck!

Cathbath - you have described my DS (also 4) down to a tee. Apart from the school bit, thankfully (so far). I have no advice, but I feel better knowing I'm not the only one!

pS once dd has 'lost it' the best tactic seems to be calm distraction when I have her close (eg the other day - I started babbling 'Oh! did you see that cat outside?! It's ginger, I saw thw sign for ginger on mr tumble - it's this. Can you do it?' and dd slowly engaged with me. Seems to give a 'way out' to talk happily about something else. She then nearly always asks for tissue and water/milk. And we talk about it later...

(sometimes ignoring her works but mostly it just infuriates her more. which i understand!!)

Just to keep on about Alfie Kohn (do tell me to shut up!), I would be really interested to hear about your successes or problems. It sounds hopeful to me that you feel you're making some headway with it. I really feel that I half know what I want to do but am having trouble getting there on a day to day basis. Plus, I end up just behaving how my parents behaved with me as a default.
One time when I was really pleased was when dd was getting into a tantrum on "Mummy, take my shoes off for me!" (aged 4 - velcro fastenings). She was getting more and more worked up with it and it was becoming some kind of "test" of me - I don't know if it was for me to show I was there for her and not for her little brother. Maybe. Then I started saying that there were lots of people who want me to do things. Grandma asks me to do x, Grandpa asks me to do y, Daddy asks me to do z, neighbour asks me to do xx etc. After I'd gone on like this with as many people as I could think of she was giggling and listening really hard. Then I said that if I tried to do everything for everyone I'd be really tired. I would never be able to eat or sleep or go to the toilet (also got a giggle). I'd just be doing everything that everyone else tells me to do. So, I think, I have to say "hey! I can't do all that. I won't just do everyone else's things". She really liked the tone of the "hey!". Then I suggested that she take my shoes off and I take her shoes off. Which we did and then had a big cuddle. Then I heard her afterward going round saying "hey!".

Sorry, that sounds as if I'm a real ogre. I'm not basically against helping dd with her shoes - it was just that I was really busy getting ds out of his pushchair etc. and she was being a bit of a "little madam"!

Thanks all; it's really such a relief to know I'm not alone. In DS's last nursery, I felt they (well one particular teacher) had labelled him as a naughty child, and she made me feel like a terrible mother without offering anything constructive. I was so scared the same thing would happen again in DS's new nursery (especially after the hitting incident), but since talking to the teachers I feel like they are much kinder and more understanding.

We've had a much better few days since I started this thread. DS has come home nearly every day with stickers, and it sounds like they are giving him extra responsibilities, such as pouring the drinks at snack time. He loves to be the 'special helper' and it really helps to diffuse the situation where he used to fidget and misbehave. As he is one of the oldest in the class, I think this is helping him to feel more grown up and less frustrated.

DS has been so much better with me too. I have managed to stay calm and have had some success with distracting DS when I sense he is about to start losing it. Also I find making everything into a game helps - such as for getting dressed, we play counting games and see if he can beat a certain time. He will never do anything if we just ask him to do it - but actually runs to do it if we make it into a game or a challenge!

I am trying to work out the triggers that get him revved up... tiredness is usually obvious, but sometimes he wakes up in that mood after 12 hours of sleep. I am beginning to realise how sensitive he is, and I think insecurity may play a part. With any changes in setting or routine he seems to get out of control with his emotions (which must make him feel even more insecure).

He was particularly bad the week my mum came to stay (even though he loves Granny and she gave him LOTS of undivided attention). Sometimes his dad walking in the door sets him off. I think he is just prone to getting overexcited, and he is confused by his big emotions and unable to manage them yet. In fact DH has these hyper moods too... so perhaps they are both sensitive and highly strung.

I think punishing DS for getting overexcited definitely makes things worse. He has been SO much better since we stopped doing that.

He actually came and put his head on me when he was tired yesterday, which was a lovely moment.

AAH cathbath that 's so sweet!! I'm pleased it's getting better congratulations !

Hi, back on this thread again with an update...

We were making good progress - I was being patient and up-beat, using games and distraction instead of shouting... I managed to have some good times with DS for a change.

But DH had to go away on business for a few days, and I had a horribly stressful week. DS is having constant toilet accidents (wetting his pants), and his behaviour has deteriorated again (or maybe it's my stress levels, but things seem worse again).

It takes all my strength and patience just to get DS to do simple things such as use the toilet and get changed. These things seem to take up most of our day...

Last night when I was trying to get him to go to bed, he hit me in the face and knocked my glasses off. He laughed. I put my glasses back on again, and he did it again (and laughed again).

I am absolutely fuming inside and so ashamed that my own DS hits me. How can I deal with it? I have tried to avoid the situations where he gets cross and hits, by making everything a game... and by not reacting to the bad behaviour. But I am just so utterly miserable and exhausted... not sure how to get through the next 11 months till he starts school.

Hi Cathbed. I was just about to write on your post as I'd been watching it very carefully as I have very similar problems with ds. Sorry to hear you've had such a bad week. You've hit the nail on the head miserable and exhausting. It starts to consume everything doesn't it. I am ashamed to say I was at breaking point hence reading your thread and hoping for some very much needed advice.

However I like to say a massive thank you to ppeatfruit after her suggestion and a little more reading I have put ds on a wheat free diet and just can not believe the difference. I now have a much calmer, caring, violence free version and i really can't believe it. Preschool have notice such a difference not only with his temper but his concentration. Its only be 2 weeks but things have changed so dramatically. I can't thank my lucky stars enough that I read this thread as its not something I would have ever thought of and I was certainly reaching breaking point.

Reading lots of books at the moment to so if I come across any sound advice I'll get back to you cathbed. Hope things get easier for you soon.

Hi neverright, that sounds like a dramatic and positive change - I'm really pleased for you. I will definitely have to rethink DS's diet and see if cutting out wheat makes a difference. Do get back to me with any other advice you come across. Having moral support makes all the difference!

I know what you mean about being at breaking point - I feel like I am approaching that. DD still doesn't sleep through the night, and I am constantly firefighting during the day. DH and I are constantly exhausted (and he has a very demanding job), and there is just no respite...

I am definitely sinking into a low mood, and losing my handle on coping with the situation... I just need some way of letting out all the frustration!

Hi Cathbed,

How have things been today?

I've started to read Divas and Dictators. Quite a good read.Its made me think about my parenting techniques without being patronising. Now just to put it into practice.

Hi neverright. We've had a better day thanks. When I picked DS up from preschool he was in a lovely mood, and had done a fantastic drawing that he was proud to show me. He was great for most of the afternoon. Such a change from the little demon he has been the past few days! I wish I knew what triggered these mood swings - he was like a different child today.

He has lots of fruit and healthy snacks, but I haven't managed to cut out wheat - I will have to sit down and think about his diet.

I'll try and get hold of Divas and Dictators - sounds like a useful read.

Hope you're still having a better time with your DS?