disciplining a 2yold

[webmum]

hello everyone

I nee dsome advice as dd is getting out of control.

she's always had a strong charachter and been very determined and at 18 months she was having terrible tantrums, things then got a bit better (also because I amde more of a conscious effort to avoid confrontations and be more patient with her) but recently they've gone worse again.

I'm not sure anymore if our stategies work or if we need to change them, or just give it more time.

we have 2 main issues:

1. food. She's not a good eater, so I have to keep a firm control on her diet and hse's not allowed any treats if she has not eaten her dinner (half is enough to make me happy).

2. doing as she's told...I suppose this is a major issue for everyone, but I don't expect her to just blindly obey me, and do explain why sheshouldn't do something (ie coming down the stairs on her own, or jump with dirty shoes on our friend's sofa, spitting food, I'm sure you're all familiar with the scenario), still she never ever ever do anything I ask of her.

Our reaction in general is to tell her we're not happyu withe her behaviour and if she doesn't correct it immediately she'll get one treat or another taken away. This usually sends in a complete state, she gets hysterical, screams and kicks and all sorts of things until eventually she will come down but still won't do give in.

When I'm a good mum I just let her scream until she calms down and eventually cuddle hefr and explain to her calmly why I was unhappy. On a bad day I'd start shouting at her and this amkes me feel very guilty (as you cna imagine).

I just don't know what to do anymore, the withdrawal of treats seemed to work better at the start, but now nothing seems to work. I ask her to apologise but I doubt she understands....

any advice is greatly appreciated!!!!

thanks

She maybe abit young but what about trying a star chart reward thingy. Alot of people have tonnes of success with them although I have to be honest and say that whenever I've tried them I've given up as I think my DS1 (who the chart was for) is not that easily 'bought out' and almost enjoys being naughty!

I've resigned myself to the fact that we're always going to live in a noisy house where SOMEONE will always be shouting so I'm looking forward to next month when we have the double glazing finished and the whole street can't hear my voice!

Sorry I know I haven't been much help but I now exactly how you feel so I'll send sympathies instead of a solution.

Hi Webmum. What about trying distraction and co-operation instead? Things like "I wonder if you can get into bed by the time I count to five" for the things you want her to do but aren't worth a battle about. On the non negotiable things (like dangerous stuff, stairs etc) I think I'd just keep telling her No and giving her the message firmly but without losing your temper (which makes it far more exciting to disobey). She will get it eventually.

I think she's probably too young for withholding of treats and star charts (others may disagree though), I shouldn't think she understands yet. With food I'd forget the treats tbh - in my view you're teaching her that she has to eat 'boring' normal stuff to get 'treat status' lovely stuff. So why would she want to eat the first? At 2 I'd say instant gratification is the order of the day! So I'd offer the healthy stuff and if she eats it she eats it if she doesn't she doesn't. Lots of people will disagree but I'd offer another quick and healthy alternative, calmly and leave it at that. So if she doesn't eat her pasta she can have a banana for example. She may be working out that food is an issue and you get wound up about it so I would try not to battle with her over this I think.

So my advice is very path of least resistance I suppose without giving in on the things that are important, like safety and healthy eating. IIRC she is at the age where she has maximum will and strength and a considerable amount of it is devoted to getting what she wants! Trying isn't it? Anyway, HTH.

If she does not understand a star chart she may still enjoy receiving stickers for good behaviour. Most little girls I know love stickers especially winnie the pooh ones. My ds was really difficult (and still is occasionally at 3 years) with various issues including bedtime and mealtimes. I just stuck to my guns, set the boundaries and perservered!

What helped me at mealtimes, though, was doing something different such as picnics in the garden or park or inviting friends around. What he really loves every now and then is breakfast in my bed (bad for toast crumbs in the sheets!)

Probably not much help but good luck!

I useda naughty step - more sucessful with ds1 than 2.
agree about distraction and challenges -

Hi Webmum

Our 20 month old ds is also extremely strong willed and has quite a temper on him sometimes! I find that if I get drawn into shouting it's a nightmare - hard not to sometimes, but I really try not to.

Re: eating - he's very fussy aswell, and we've got to the stage where we offer him something we know he's eaten in the past and likes, but if he doesn't want it we just say really calmly "OK, no more tea" and that's it. Quite often he'll then start eating few minutes later!

With everything else I usually either bribe/threaten (I know, I'm a BAD Mummy). e.g. if he's struggling when I'm putting his nappy on (he hates this), I'll say "OK, no more....." (whatever is his favourite thing - at the moment it's a Wallace and Grommit video!). I find that'll usually stop him being a pain for long enough for me to put the nappy on, etc. Or the other way round, like, "don't you want to go to the park then?", which also usually works -of course I then have to take him!

Isn't it tricky?! I also find that telling him what a good boy he is, even when he's just been a horror, works quite well - if you can find one tiny thing to tell them how good they are, it might change their mood.

Good luck - and any more tips would be good..!

I agree with a lot of what www says. At this age there is very little impulse control due to immaturity of the brain, and very many two year olds are also pretty much incapable of understanding the concept of 'later' of 'if you do this you get this'.

I really, really urge you not to get hung up on her eating. I think it's not a good idea to make food an emotional issue of any kind, particularly with girls who tend to struggle so much with emotions and food. I just offer food to my my ds and if he doesn't eat it, he doesn't eat it. I would HATE to be forced to eat something that a/I didn't want and b/when I wasn't hungry. I tend to offer foods I'm reasonably happy with, but I have to admit I'm not an 'organic everything' person. For lunch today ds has dairylea sandwiches, a pear, a peach, some sweet rice cakes, a babybel and some mini breadsticks plus milk, yoghurt and water. He may eat some or none of those things. It's really up to him. And he may well get a minimilk ice cream in the park later, but not as reward or punishment. There's no reward involved for eating as I want to keep it morally neutral. And yes, we've been having lots of picnics outside recently too! Also, I don't want to fight about it, as I have vivid memories about being forced to eat at primary school which still horrify me!
My ds also ignores me much of the time when 'told' what to do, so I use distraction, ignoring, and preparation. Ie re: the dirty shoes, I'd simply take them off, then let him bounce (unless I had a really anal friend with precious antique sofas - in which case we'd be in the park or at my house anyway!). If he's doing something I really don't want him to do, I just ignore him or remove him or the object and tell him why (eg when he pulls the cat's fur). Personally I wouldn't punish spitting out food! I often think they do it because I've tried to encourage 'just one more spoonful' and it's his entirely reasonable protest, or he doesn't like it. My ds is allowed to come down the stairs on his own too. He's not the most coordinated of children but he's got to do it sometime! I also think, and others may disagree, that it's not appropriate to expect a two year old to 'give in'. They will do things with you, but not agree they are wrong and an apology from a two year old will mean nothing. They simply won't understand. I probably sound really critical, but I have wrestled with all these things with my nearly two year old, but I found reading about child psychology and development etc really gave me an insight as to how my ds was thinking and feeling. I read the book The Heart Of Parenting by John Gottman, which is about emotional intelligence and parenting, and I strongly recommend The Social Toddler, which is published by The Children's Project (I bought mine in Waterstones I think, but I'm sure Amazon had it) and that really opened my eyes to why toddlers behave the way they do and how to manage their behaviour. And I honestly don't think my little boy is an out of control monster. He's extremely good fun to be around and lots of people comment on how laid back and happy he is. The advice to pick your fights carefully and sparingly is the best I think I've ever read on Mumsnet!

If my ds does something I consider really unacceptable and it's important to me to stop - like biting me - I put him outside the living room door for a few minutes (the naughty stair principle). I don't shout if I can help it, just no, we don't bite. No biting - and put him out. He hates it. Then I let him in again, say, no more biting, and don't mention it again!

Agree with Issymum over the mealtimes, that is exactly what I did and he is really good at mealtimes now.
To overcome the bedtime issue I removed every single book from around the house to his bedroom and also put in a big comfy armchair. As he loves books it was a real treat to go and spend 15 to 30 minutes reading together before bed (not so easy now that I have had another one). This really worked for my, especially when I was heavily pregnant and not able to drag a struggling toddler up the stairs. Now he asks to go and read a book and I can have them downstairs again.

I think the main thing is to concentrate on the important things and not pick up on every slight misbehaviour.

He never has and still does not respond to treats. Got to go through it all again now with dd!

I realise now I haven't been clear about our food battles...I don't actually get into a battle at all and I do as most of you suggested, ie offer her something and leave her at that. Thing is, most days she'll have a spoonful if any, and then ask for icecream...now I don't consider ice cream a reward, but I'm afraid that if I give her the icecream this is what most of her emals will consist of. So I say no, and then she gets into a terrible state and my attitude until now has always been to ignore her completely, and once her screams calm down to sobs I go to her and explain why she couldn't have icecream. I do offer her healthy alternatives but she will always reply 'no mummy, icecream'. This has now been going on for many months....
It's a bit of a catch 22 situation...

I do tell her when she's been a good girl, all the time, and there are times (obviously) when she behaves better and she always gets a kiss and a hug for that.

Distraction has never ever worked with her, not even when she was a baby....I do try, but when she's in a state she doesn't even hear me (or at least that's how it seems)

Dot1
''but if he doesn't want it we just say really calmly "OK, no more tea" and that's it. Quite often he'll then start eating few minutes later!'' This is exactly what I do and it has worked on a very few occasions, but that was a long time ago, and doesn't seem to work any longer.

She often goes without anything to eat from breakfast to dinner, when she won't ahve anything (and might or might not eat at the next meal) but I still get the icecream battles. I'm not worried about her health at all, I know she eats well at nursery 2 days a week and that seems to be enough as she's growing, it's the bad behaviour she shows with us that really gets to me. I've tried eating in the garden and taking her out with us (which used to work) and we do take her quite often, but the last time we had to run from the restaurant!!

Aloha, I never do the one last spoonful thing, she spits out food after taking a full mouthful of her own will!! and she does it with that look in her face.....

The same goes if I tell her 'no video if you don't...whatever', the results usually that she gets absolutely overcome by anger!!

What really drives me mad is that her behaviour is always absolutely unpredictable, ie most days she will happily swallow her antibiotics that she's been taking for a year now, and one day decide that she just won't have them!! (likewise bedtime, it's not usually an issue)

Aloha: the shoe example, well this is what we tried to do at the weekend but she did not want to take them off either!!!

BUt yes I get your point about toddler emotions and you got me very interested in your books (which I'll try to read) and I DO choose my battles carefully, you have no idea how many things she gets away with!!!

Aloha do you find that the naughty stair concept works? Because I do the same, even though I don't have a particular place, but I will stop her and tell her that what she's done it's wrong and then leave the room, this is usually enough to upset her, but so far she doesn't seem to have understood how to avoid this kind of situation...I guess what I'd like to know is it worth persevering? Do they learn eventually? Or would they learn anyway????

Nother thing she does when she gets cross with me is throwing things or pouring a glass full of juice (if handy) over the carpet. Now several months ago she had thrown something in a temper and I asked her very calmly to pick it up, she cried for about 20 minutes then I cuddled her and explained she shouldn't throw things etc. aftera couple of minutes she gotup and picked up the thing she had thrown. Great I thought it works!!! It never did work again.........

Thank you all for your help and advice, I think is again down to my own patience, some days I've got more and things work out better others it's a complete disaster....

I just hate it so much when we fight....I love her to bits and I used to see a friend of mine shouting to her kids and stroking my pregnant belly and promising to myself I'll never do that.....I suppose I deserve it for being so judgemental!!

(mind you it's not like I shout at her all day long, but it's still more often than I'd like)

sorry for the long post

I realise now I haven't been clear about our food battles...I don't actually get into a battle at all and I do as most of you suggested, ie offer her something and leave her at that. Thing is, most days she'll have a spoonful if any, and then ask for icecream...now I don't consider ice cream a reward, but I'm afraid that if I give her the icecream this is what most of her emals will consist of. So I say no, and then she gets into a terrible state and my attitude until now has always been to ignore her completely, and once her screams calm down to sobs I go to her and explain why she couldn't have icecream. I do offer her healthy alternatives but she will always reply 'no mummy, icecream'. This has now been going on for many months....
It's a bit of a catch 22 situation...

I do tell her when she's been a good girl, all the time, and there are times (obviously) when she behaves better and she always gets a kiss and a hug for that.

Distraction has never ever worked with her, not even when she was a baby....I do try, but when she's in a state she doesn't even hear me (or at least that's how it seems)

Dot1
''but if he doesn't want it we just say really calmly "OK, no more tea" and that's it. Quite often he'll then start eating few minutes later!'' This is exactly what I do and it has worked on a very few occasions, but that was a long time ago, and doesn't seem to work any longer.

She often goes without anything to eat from breakfast to dinner, when she won't ahve anything (and might or might not eat at the next meal) but I still get the icecream battles. I'm not worried about her health at all, I know she eats well at nursery 2 days a week and that seems to be enough as she's growing, it's the bad behaviour she shows with us that really gets to me. I've tried eating in the garden and taking her out with us (which used to work) and we do take her quite often, but the last time we had to run from the restaurant!!

Aloha, I never do the one last spoonful thing, she spits out food after taking a full mouthful of her own will!! and she does it with that look in her face.....

The same goes if I tell her 'no video if you don't...whatever', the results usually that she gets absolutely overcome by anger!!

What really drives me mad is that her behaviour is always absolutely unpredictable, ie most days she will happily swallow her antibiotics that she's been taking for a year now, and one day decide that she just won't have them!! (likewise bedtime, it's not usually an issue)

Aloha: the shoe example, well this is what we tried to do at the weekend but she did not want to take them off either!!!

BUt yes I get your point about toddler emotions and you got me very interested in your books (which I'll try to read) and I DO choose my battles carefully, you have no idea how many things she gets away with!!!

Aloha do you find that the naughty stair concept works? Because I do the same, even though I don't have a particular place, but I will stop her and tell her that what she's done it's wrong and then leave the room, this is usually enough to upset her, but so far she doesn't seem to have understood how to avoid this kind of situation...I guess what I'd like to know is it worth persevering? Do they learn eventually? Or would they learn anyway????

Nother thing she does when she gets cross with me is throwing things or pouring a glass full of juice (if handy) over the carpet. Now several months ago she had thrown something in a temper and I asked her very calmly to pick it up, she cried for about 20 minutes then I cuddled her and explained she shouldn't throw things etc. aftera couple of minutes she gotup and picked up the thing she had thrown. Great I thought it works!!! It never did work again.........

Thank you all for your help and advice, I think is again down to my own patience, some days I've got more and things work out better others it's a complete disaster....

I just hate it so much when we fight....I love her to bits and I used to see a friend of mine shouting to her kids and stroking my pregnant belly and promising to myself I'll never do that.....I suppose I deserve it for being so judgemental!!

(mind you it's not like I shout at her all day long, but it's still more often than I'd like)

sorry for the long post

I realise now I haven't been clear about our food battles...I don't actually get into a battle at all and I do as most of you suggested, ie offer her something and leave her at that. Thing is, most days she'll have a spoonful if any, and then ask for icecream...now I don't consider ice cream a reward, but I'm afraid that if I give her the icecream this is what most of her emals will consist of. So I say no, and then she gets into a terrible state and my attitude until now has always been to ignore her completely, and once her screams calm down to sobs I go to her and explain why she couldn't have icecream. I do offer her healthy alternatives but she will always reply 'no mummy, icecream'. This has now been going on for many months....
It's a bit of a catch 22 situation...

I do tell her when she's been a good girl, all the time, and there are times (obviously) when she behaves better and she always gets a kiss and a hug for that.

Distraction has never ever worked with her, not even when she was a baby....I do try, but when she's in a state she doesn't even hear me (or at least that's how it seems)

Dot1
''but if he doesn't want it we just say really calmly "OK, no more tea" and that's it. Quite often he'll then start eating few minutes later!'' This is exactly what I do and it has worked on a very few occasions, but that was a long time ago, and doesn't seem to work any longer.

She often goes without anything to eat from breakfast to dinner, when she won't ahve anything (and might or might not eat at the next meal) but I still get the icecream battles. I'm not worried about her health at all, I know she eats well at nursery 2 days a week and that seems to be enough as she's growing, it's the bad behaviour she shows with us that really gets to me. I've tried eating in the garden and taking her out with us (which used to work) and we do take her quite often, but the last time we had to run from the restaurant!!

Aloha, I never do the one last spoonful thing, she spits out food after taking a full mouthful of her own will!! and she does it with that look in her face.....

The same goes if I tell her 'no video if you don't...whatever', the results usually that she gets absolutely overcome by anger!!

What really drives me mad is that her behaviour is always absolutely unpredictable, ie most days she will happily swallow her antibiotics that she's been taking for a year now, and one day decide that she just won't have them!! (likewise bedtime, it's not usually an issue)

Aloha: the shoe example, well this is what we tried to do at the weekend but she did not want to take them off either!!!

BUt yes I get your point about toddler emotions and you got me very interested in your books (which I'll try to read) and I DO choose my battles carefully, you have no idea how many things she gets away with!!!

Aloha do you find that the naughty stair concept works? Because I do the same, even though I don't have a particular place, but I will stop her and tell her that what she's done it's wrong and then leave the room, this is usually enough to upset her, but so far she doesn't seem to have understood how to avoid this kind of situation...I guess what I'd like to know is it worth persevering? Do they learn eventually? Or would they learn anyway????

Nother thing she does when she gets cross with me is throwing things or pouring a glass full of juice (if handy) over the carpet. Now several months ago she had thrown something in a temper and I asked her very calmly to pick it up, she cried for about 20 minutes then I cuddled her and explained she shouldn't throw things etc. aftera couple of minutes she gotup and picked up the thing she had thrown. Great I thought it works!!! It never did work again.........

Thank you all for your help and advice, I think is again down to my own patience, some days I've got more and things work out better others it's a complete disaster....

I just hate it so much when we fight....I love her to bits and I used to see a friend of mine shouting to her kids and stroking my pregnant belly and promising to myself I'll never do that.....I suppose I deserve it for being so judgemental!!

(mind you it's not like I shout at her all day long, but it's still more often than I'd like)

sorry for the long post

just a quick apology for the treble posting, but the pc had sort of frozen and I ahd no idea it was actually still running!!!

SORRY

Oh, I'm so sorry if I made you feel bad. That truly isn't what I intended. You are clearly a fab mum, honestly. Re the shoes, I'd just take them off and try to ignore the protest. But I'd probably say, "Oh, you don't want me to take your shoes off. You like your shoes don't you? They are lovely! The sofa's lovely too and I don't want it to get dirty." - I got that tip out of John Gottman's parenting book (ie articulate their feelings for them so they know you understand) and it has worked for me so many times with my ds and other children too. Re the ice cream, well we don't have it in the house (or biscuits or cake) it's really for me, cos I've got no willpower but also good for kid IMO. If you don't have it you can't offer it. Ds knows that ice cream only 'exists' in parks! I never withdraw pudding for not eating main meal, but the only pudding we have is fruit, sweet rice cakes or petit filous, and all are OK with me. Would this work for you? EVERYONE gets fed up sometimes. Your dd sound spirited and determined, fantastic qualities for later life, but I'm sure a bit trying now. Try to let things go if you possibly can and head off problems - an anyway up cup is impossible to spill on the carpet! Good luck. I do recommend both the books and severely lowering your expectations.
xx

Oh, yes, putting him out works - sort of - I think he forgets after a while because he's so young.

thanks aloha, your post was really nie, it wasn't you (or anyone else) that amde me feel bad, just tghe situation I guess..

thanks for the axtra tips, I used no to buy ice cream, but she wnet through a phase of eating well and I thought, what the h*, we all love a treat sometimes, and I wouldn't mind giving it to her if she DID eat something else....but nothing works, yoghurt, formage frais, fruit of any kind....tried it all!

Anyway, I don't want to keep rambling on, I'll definitely get the books, and huge thanks for the advice (and the sympathy)

webmum - I haven't read throught his in detail, but re the leaving the room thing. yes it is worth persevering. That is my punishment for ds1. he is 4 and autistic- and his language skills are below that of his 18 month old brother so reasoning with him isn't a possiblilty. If he does something that is classed as forbidden (generally this is things that hurt someone- for example today he was getting very frustrated becuase he was trying to tell me that he wanted a curtain open and I had no idea - he was shouting "dirty" which means wrong to him- really I was clueless so he headbutted me and it hurt) then I put him outside the room for 10 or 20 seconds. he understands now that that means he has gone too far.

Re the food- don't stress- ignore it. My ds1 eats about 10 items of food- I could literally list everything he will eat. We've recently seen a nutritionist and she wasn't worried about his diet at all- not in nutritional terms anyway. So now I give him a meal (same as ds2's) If he eats so little he will be awake at night I just give him a supper after bath and vefore bed- something liek a sandwich. This means he won't wake at night, but knowing that ;'m going to give him that stops me stressing out about his main meal (and also means I try him on new food, very very occasionally he will eat it)

Oh and if it all gets too much walk away- and don't feel guilty about it. There are times when ds1 absolutely loses it (usulally when I don't understand him). Int he end I can't do anything with him so I just say "I'm sorry Mummy doesn't understand" and walk away. 5 minutes later we're usually having a cuddle on the sofa and the flash point is almost forgotten.

Webmum - have you tried turning the 'no abc if you don't xyz' into 'if you xyz, then you can do abc', eg 'if you clear your toys away, you can watch a video' rather than 'no video if you don't clear your toys away'. This works with my dd and makes me feel that I am being more positive and saying no less often.

I never ever make a fuss of anything my two year old does when he's naughty. I just pick him up ignore his crying and put him on his own. Its hard to ignore his fit, but i do, and he always comes back saying sorry. I then ask why, and dont let it go until he knows what he has done. It might sound a bit millitant but it works for me, and it gives me time to calm down too.

webmum -you are describing my DD (2 yrs) perfectly and I have similar concerns about her eating habits/strong willed temper as well. Your last post describing your problems are so familiar it is uncanny. We used to have a lovely little girl who would eat anything and everything given to her...not any more.

As she has developed a strong sense of independence she has slowly become more and more picky - breakfast consists of marmite on toast and/or yoghurt (has to be teletubbies or bob the builder ones Grrrrr.) and lunch is rarely anything at all - she is such a busy little girl that she hates to be stopped to sit down for anything less than Cheddars, crisps, a lolly or more yogurt. She used to eat all sorts of fruit regularly but slowly narrowed it down to apples and bananas - now even those are out. I always have a full fruit bowl and Dh and I eat loads all the time, always offering her a bite of different ones etc. but just a no go area. As for evening meals - not that different. I find it so hard to deal with - I am not a stupid mum, I know what she should have, have tried cutting out all treats, being relaxed about it, allowing her to leave things on the plate, offering choice, involving her in the shopping and cooking processes, making funny faces etc. out of her food to encourage her etc. etc. etc. and I am tired of it all - nothing really works for long.
I can also relate to a change in response to being told off - all I used to have to do to get her to stop was to look serious and speak in a low quite voice looking into her eyes - tears and hugs all round. Now she throws her head back in defiance, refuses to look at me and/or yells/starts throwing things/kicking etc. out of frustration that she isn?t getting my complete compliance....I admit to resorting to putting out of the room occasionally and shutting the door for time out and this still works dramatically - but I worry about why this works...she isn?t learning that it is wrong etc. just that I am now really really angry and she is in trouble. It breaks the argument down and stops her doing whatever it was that was dangerous/wrong etc. but I never feel happy afterwards as she still hasn?t learnt from it - just desperate to have my forgiveness. To make matters worse she is an angel for my mum and dad and they can?t udnerstand my problems with her - she will eat anythng they give her and behaves impeccably. This makes me so annoyed as it suggests that I am the problem not my daughter but I just don?t see how/where I am going wrong! She goes over to see them about oncec or twice a week and I think it could still be the novelty factor rather than the boring routine of being home, but it is enough to make me feel really inadequate. I just hope it is all a phase and a way of her learning about free will, choices, asserting authority etc. and that the more she learns with time I will be able to reason with her more effectively blah, blah. Until then, I have a few survival strategies that sort of work :

1. having family picnics in the back garden - the novelty factor means that she will help choose different things (such as cherry toms, grapes.etc.) and will be a bit more open towards trying them all - not great, just better than if I had just put it on her plate at the table.

2. DD helping to make pizzas - she gets to put all the toppings onto a plain base - loves spreading the tom paste and arranging the veg etc. - she will eat the finished product if she has made it.

3. A star chart - worked for about 2 weeks and she did understand that a completed line meant a milky way! Got bored after a while but combined with potty training it has had some positive effects on general behaviour and using the potty.

4. Distraction toys and trying to anticipate problems before they go too far and she gets her tantrum head on - bit obvious I know (sorry) but it does work if I can catch her early and spot the trigger signs - looking bored, starting to get frustrated with some toy she can?t get to work how she wants etc. By either changing the activity, removing her from the room altogether or solving her problem quickly it can avoid a lot of fights.

Sorry - I have ranted on a bit but you have my full sympathy. Oh - and my DD isn?t sleeping well at night either, still comes into our bed but that is another whole can of wiggly worms....It isn?t easy and it can be so exhausting mentally as well as knock your confidence about your parenting skills. Good Luck

I know this probably sounds really stupid but how does the "naughty step" or "put them in the their room" thing work? My DD is completely out of control (reading these posts with a degree of relief that I am not the only one) but it seems to me that a child who will sit on a step or stay in their room is a million miles from my own. She wouldn't stay there for a second. The step thing just makes me laugh, and locking her in a room seems awful. Am I being naive?

StripyM and others- You sound like you are doing brilliantly to me, though many sympathies because I do remember what a trying time this can be. However, IMO, the proof of the parental brilliance pudding is precisely that your kids are not scared to try it on with you! At this sort of age, that means that you and they are doing everything right. Don't be fooled by the beautiful behaviour for others and bratlike at home stuff- this is very common and I think it means that they trust you and you alone to show them how to behave- they know that ultimately you call the shots and they need to be clear on where you're going to call them, so they'll test you on that over and over again. Grans and childminders don't usually have this shot-calling power over them- more usually a licence to spoil in the case of Grans- so they won't bother testing them in the same way, making parents everywhere feel that they are failing... What a clever and infuriating beast is the toddler!

I think your strategies sound great, StripyM, and I wouldn't worry too much about whether she's taking in why something is wrong at this stage. As long as you explain it to her I'm sure it'll sink in eventually. Also, I know it's very hard when kids are remorseful because you've been angry/disciplined them rather than because they realise the error of their ways as it were, BUT I really believe that the ability to guage people's moods and likely reactions to your behaviour is an utterly essential one and you just don't get a chance to develop this if the important people in your life are never irritable and angry around you and deal calmly, reasonably and gently with you without ever punishing you or losing it. Not that I think that we should not be aspiring to mostly calm, reasoned parenting, you understand, but occasionally that doesn't work- toddlers aren't feeling reasonable a lot of the time- and equally, thankfully, parents can't help but sometimes make mistakes.

I think different things work for different children. My ds is 2 and he has a naughty corner which usually results in an apology after a couple of minutes. I like the idea of turning the negative into the positive - we also say stuff like, 'if you finish all your vegetables you can have some cake' or whatever. It's really important not to give in. Sometimes you feel as if nothing works but if you know you are doing the right things you should just keep doing them and eventually they get the idea. I think often we get bored with our strategies before the kids do and so we don't keep them going.

Personally, I think 'encouraging' a child to eat in wild and wonderful ways is often counter-productive. They often don't eat because they like the attention it brings, give them more and IMO you reinforce the behaviour. All children crave their parents' attention more than anything in the world and that definitely includes food. However, I also think we should respect children's choices not to eat. As a child myself I was fantastically picky. I lost my appetite at the drop of a hat, refused to eat ANY vegetables (except mushrooms), wouldn't touch meat with fat on or 'tubes' or gristle, hated pearl barley, pasta, eggs etc etc etc. I was thin! BUT now I'm an adult I'm pretty healthy, tall, hardly ever ill, I love vegetables, still hate eggs and pasta and pearl barley but eat a good varied diet most of the time and struggle to lose weight. I was also a perfectly healthy child despite my diet. I don't remember conflict about food at home - if my family had spaghetti bolognaise, I had sauce on toast, but apart from that ate what I wanted of the meal. At school it was a nightmare, always being told I had to eat stuff which literally turned my stomach - eg pearl barley! It was horrific for me and I vowed I would never make an issue out of food for my child. I don't have much junk in the house - we don't buy biscuits, crisps, sweets, ice cream etc so it's simply not available for my ds to eat. If a meal consists of, say, pasta followed by yoghurt and fruit, if he doesn't like the pasta I just move on to the pudding. I don't ever want him to think of food in loaded terms like punishment and reward. I want it to be just food.
Re feeling sorry and understanding why it is wrong etc etc. I honestly don't think two year olds are mentally capable of this - remember, they can't imagine yet that anyone is thinking something different to them. I think expecting it of a young toddler is like expecting a dog to have a sophisticated understanding of why peeing on the carpet is wrong (ie causes work, is unhygienic) so with a dog you just train them to understand you don't like it and that's it. I think toddlers are exactly the same. Putting my ds out of the door for a minute works because he hates it and it always happens if he bites. Thus he learns that biting leads to rather indesirable consequences. I don't expect him to apologise or understand because from all my reading about two year olds that's simply inappropriate.

janinlondon - ds1 is literally out of the room for between 10 and 20 seconds- and I have to hold the door shut. I can't leave him any longer in case he headbutts the window or something! It works in that he knows he's gone too far and done something forbidden, and he'll usually stop doing it. We don't get an apology (he can't talk) and that's not really my aim- just to let him know when too much is too much.

I'd have no chance of getting him to sit on a step- hence the out of the room thing.