disciplining a 2yold

[webmum]

hello everyone

I nee dsome advice as dd is getting out of control.

she's always had a strong charachter and been very determined and at 18 months she was having terrible tantrums, things then got a bit better (also because I amde more of a conscious effort to avoid confrontations and be more patient with her) but recently they've gone worse again.

I'm not sure anymore if our stategies work or if we need to change them, or just give it more time.

we have 2 main issues:

1. food. She's not a good eater, so I have to keep a firm control on her diet and hse's not allowed any treats if she has not eaten her dinner (half is enough to make me happy).

2. doing as she's told...I suppose this is a major issue for everyone, but I don't expect her to just blindly obey me, and do explain why sheshouldn't do something (ie coming down the stairs on her own, or jump with dirty shoes on our friend's sofa, spitting food, I'm sure you're all familiar with the scenario), still she never ever ever do anything I ask of her.

Our reaction in general is to tell her we're not happyu withe her behaviour and if she doesn't correct it immediately she'll get one treat or another taken away. This usually sends in a complete state, she gets hysterical, screams and kicks and all sorts of things until eventually she will come down but still won't do give in.

When I'm a good mum I just let her scream until she calms down and eventually cuddle hefr and explain to her calmly why I was unhappy. On a bad day I'd start shouting at her and this amkes me feel very guilty (as you cna imagine).

I just don't know what to do anymore, the withdrawal of treats seemed to work better at the start, but now nothing seems to work. I ask her to apologise but I doubt she understands....

any advice is greatly appreciated!!!!

thanks

Oh, and when I say we don't buy it... I mean, when we do, we keep it hidden and get it out after he's gone to to bed...tee,hee!
Amd of course he sometimes has 'rubbish' - 'we' made gingerbread men today to go with his new book and later on he'll eat them while I look on enviously!

Aloha, I am sure your gingerbread men are not rubbish. Much healthier than bought ones anyway.

I agree about not making food a big issue. I often put out several different types of vegetables on the table. My kids know they have to eat vegetables, but they also know that if there is something they don't like, they can top up with another. The little ones really like to have a choice so they can feel in control.

I just remembered this - there's a classic experiment when children between two and three are sat at a table with a screen on it (bit like a table tennis net but opaque. She sits opposite the experimenter with the screen between them. The child is given a toy and told to hide it from the experimenter. Obviously, the toy would be hidden on the child's side of the screen, but because two year olds only have the haziest idea that they don't see things exactly the same way as other people, they very often 'hid' the toy on the other person's side - because they (the child) couldn't see it, they assumed the other person couldn't. Other children would hide the toy behind their back, also believing that if they could see it, so could the experimenter. But by the age of three all the kids got this right and hid the toy on their side of the screen. This sort of thing makes me realise how very limited toddler minds are and how much we expect from them in terms of understanding, expectations which I think they are often incapable of meeting.

brilliant thread deeply inducing guilt at my current lack of all patience with dd1; will reread and put into practice!

the guilt, the guilt...

First of all

Stripymouse we definitely share the same daughter even though sleep is one thing that is usually (I repeat usually, and not include early waking up to which we have sort of got used to) doesn't cause probelms.

Just thought I'd give you an update as I feel very proud of myself tonight as I managed to fend off at least 4 occasions forf trouble today in the space of just over 2 hours, by using lots of imagination and all my persuasive powers....she only ate raisins and a bit of fresh fruit, but she didn't ask for icecream which is why the evening went on so smoothly...I also had to give up on washing her hair, even though she needed it desperately, I thought I'd leave it for her dad tomorrow (!!!)
Then I had to dry he hair (she still managed to soak it), which is not USUALLY a problem but guess what!! She refused tonight, but I did it anyway (without stressing) and followed her round the roud the room with the hairdryer until it was reasonable.

Now I'm ready to go to bed myself!!!

(I tried the positive approach ie 'if you xyz, then you can do abc' and I continue trying as I don't like havign to say no all the time, but that doesn't work either....it only worked on one occasion when she was ill and was refusing her medecine, and we promised her choc if she had it without crying...after having to chnage my clothes 3 times for having calpol&co spat all over me I was getting desperate!! Never worked again probably for the better as I wouldn't like to ahve to use bribery of this kind too often)

Thanks Scummymummy for your words and Aloha for the interesting experiment. (I've ordered The social Toddler by the way)

Can I just add though that I think some children will just have eating problmes no matter what we do? I have always been acutely aware of the potential problems that could arise from a wrong attitude towards eating and since dd has given me problems basically since around 8-9 months whens he started refusing to be fed and insisted on doing it herself with disastrous results. I have been able to compare her with my niece (9 months older) who has been brought up in quite a different way, she tried coke and chocolate long before dd, drinks sparkling wanter regularly, had mashd food until about 2 years of age, biscuits in her bottle of milk, they've always entertained her with books while eating, basically almost everything they tell you no to do in the Uk (and in most books)....guess what though, she's always been a brilliant eater and at 3 she will try almost anything that's offered to her, and she still etas loads of chocolates!!!

Now work that one out!!!!!

Agree with Jim jams about the naughty step - you have to make a lot of effort in the first stages tomake it work. Today ds1 and ds2 went to their rooms and ds1 (Birthday boy 5) went fine but ds2 almost 3 had to be carried to much howlerey. But you have to be consistent ven if it means taking ds3 (4 months) too!

webmum - glad to see you have had some success and feel really proud and positive about it, that is great news.

It is so easy to get totally obsessed by the negative side of all this (I know I do) and when bemoaning another sleepless night and little food intake from DD my DH "told me off" for being so negative and look at the positive - she had used the potty three times all by herself without any prompts, she had repeatedly said please and thank you as a matter of course and had drawn some lovely little pictures for me as well as behaving brilliantly in the shopping mall. Made me re-remember how gorgeous she is and cute and worth the hassle! She is no monster - just hard work

Aloha - I know what you mean about not making food an issue or out of the ordinary. I can see the logic and sense behind this but I would rather make food a positive issue by involving my DD in fun prep. or picnics than see her repeatedly throw it on the floor or (on a good day) just swirl it around the plate for a bit, picking at it and eating less than a teaspoonfull. Your comment about snacks did hit home - we used to be brilliant about not having any snacks/junk food in the house or kept it well hidden for the odd treat but have slipped recently. I could make excuses but TBH won?t bother - you are right and I should cut them all out altogether for the benefit of all the family.
Oh and thanks for the book tip - have ordered "The Social Toddler" as well and looking forward to reading it.

I don't think there's anyone here who isn't a model of parenting! Especially in this heat. I have also read How Babies Think, which I found utterly fascinating. A friend rang me up in despair about her eight month old who suddenly wanted to be carried all the time, so I found the bit in the book about eight month olds, which said that wanting to be held a lot more at exactly this age was a sign of normal development and the appearance of a very close bond between parent and child (again due to changes in the brain that happen at 8months, they can feel fear but also a different, more discriminatory kind of love). My friend thought it was also fantastic to hear this. Iam very boring on this subject so it is nice to hear you aren't all wilting with the tedium!
And I agree, I am sure some kids are born fussy and awkward with food. I was a nightmare, I'm sure, and still have quite a few food phobias.

Ps Stripeymouse, I think your dh is right and your dd sounds absolutely lovely.

Just a bit more about food. Sometimes it can be a sensory thing. (temperatures or textures) For example ds1 has never been able to eat ice cream, ice lollies, jelly, mashy food (things like mince, or mashed potatoes). He only really likes crunchy food. OK so he has problems, but I think the texture thing is quite common in all children- tends to lessen as they get older.

sorry didn't mean "all children' as in every child, meant all children as in normal children.

Semantics. I think my brain has fried in the heat.

Hee hee Aloha I used to read all those books as well. I have a great one about brain development (birth -3) called "what's going on in there". I had to stop reading them though as ds1 was so off the wall. Years ahead in some things and years behind in others. Having seen normal development now in the form of ds2 (now 18 months) I realise how unique ds1 is!

I can understand that Jimjams, but I used to read the books long, long before I had children. My mum did a teaching degree when I was a teenager and I devoured her child psychology books because after all, I had been a child, and to me I was reading about how we all got where we are - or at least most of us. However, I think my point about children having less understanding of many things than we expect, which I have found has helped me immeasurably with ds, esp helping me be patient, still holds true of all toddlers, including (especially) those with autism and other developmental disorders, don't you think?
BTW I agree with you about the sensory thing. I STILL can't stand slimy food - by which I mean milk puddings, gelatine in any form including in yoghurts (I can taste it), jellies, obviously, and wobbly eggs and pasta. Yeuch!

Oh I wasn't having any sort of go aloha- I still find the books interesting- in a kind of "my god this is really weird" kind of way. Just had a very strange day at the zoo where ds1's uniqueness was plain to see (he wasn't interested in a single animal but loved a hoover he spotted- whilst ds2 absolutely loved the animals). Actually he's not unique as I've just posted about it on an auti list and others have had the same experience (right down to the hoover).

Often days like today upset me, but today was fine for some reason. I've just been musing all afternoon on him doing things totally his own way and your comment about the books just struck a chord really. Difference is cool and all that.

Of course it always helps to realise the level of understanding. Especially if you've been aiming too high. We have had a far more relaxed household since I discovered that ds1 only understands nouns, definitely helps to be on the same wavelength.

Great thread......
My dd could be a mix of all these examples combined.

What confuses me sometimes are the 2 main 'rules' for tantrums which can often conflict :
NEVER GIVE IN
CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES

For example, dd often has a freak-out about putting an item of clothes on. Do I choose my battle & "give in" and take her to nursery coatless or shoeless OR do I not give in and force the coat on her while she is wailing and wriggling and show her who's boss.
The same can be said for nappy changes, wanting out of the buggy, not wanting to get in the car seat etc.

Oh - and I will look out for these books Aloha (thanks!) - I find your advice very good.

Well, I do think you have to make a decision and stick to it - but equally, don't make your decision too quickly, think, 'is this really important/necessary?' and don't make a decision if it's not needed, if you see what I mean. It is important IMO not to appear to change your mind just because your child is having a tantrum, but it is equally important to consider their requests and respect their decisions when at all possible.
Ie if you absolutely have to go somewhere , such as to animportant dr's appointment for your child, then you have to go there even if your child goes ballistic. And if your child wants to play in the road, then no has to mean no on this issue whatever the consequences.
However, if your child really doesn't want to wear a coat, then I would say don't force it. The idea is to avoid or preempt a tantrum rather than give in to one. If you say no more chocolates, don't give one because your child is screaming and kicking, but make sure before you automatically say 'no' that it is really justified. I usually try to make 'yes' my answer to any reasonable request - ie a trip to the park, walk rather than buggy, have something to eat/drink, read a story, not wear a hat - unless it really is impossible for me to do it - ie have to get home before storm, we are late for a train etc
It's easier for me because I have childcare three days a week, I know, but those are the general rules I try to stick to and they seem to work for us....so far

I can't remember if it was on this thread oor another about behaviour, but I owe a huge thank you to someone!

Basically it was about turning round the negative comments we always make and saying them in a positive manner. For example instead of saying 'if you don't put your shoes on, we are not going out' say ' If you put your shoes on we can go out and xxx'. This works in all scenarios and I have tried over the past 3 weeks to put it into practice, and I can't believe the difference it has made to my 2 yr old. Before we were always battling about the little things, now with the 'positive' message she makes the choice to do stuff. After I have said it, I can see here thinking 'it is worth it' and 9 times out of 10 she does what I wanted!!

So thank you thank you, to whoever it was, and others please try this. It takes loads of practice, I have to stop myself mid sentence to switch it around, but boy does it work. We now eat our dinner, No more 'if you don't eat x you won't get y', it is now 'if you eat x you can have y for pudding'. Getting clothes on is easier, sitting in the trolley at the supermarket works too. It also makes me happier as I am not always so negative towards my kids.

BigBird - re the two rules.
You choose your battles before you give a categorical "you must do as you're told". So eg.
you - "it's time to put your coat on"
dd - "no"
you - either "Ok then, I'll put it in the bag in case it rains" or
"ok then, but it's raining. If you put your coat on we can go out anyway." or
(battle commencing) "but you need a coat because it's raining" or

Some things are not worth battling about - and it's all in the language - if you use the right words you need never lose. If you've insisted on something then you must make sure it's carried through.