So bad considering social services

[gonewrongagain]

My dd has always been 'challenging'. However in the last few months her behaviour has got worse. She is only 5 but makes me and my dh miserable. Its difficult to describe how bad things are but this morning because I said she couldn't watch cbeebies before school she started trying to smash in the patio doors and kept pummeling the glass with her fists, she then picked up a vase and smashed it on the floor. I know and expect children to have tantrums but surely this is not normal? Last week I left her in the room with my 7 month old ds and when I came back she had her hand over his mouth, she said because he was making too much noise.

I can't manage her on my own anymore. I think she needs professional help, I don't know what to do for the best. Sometimes I wonder if social services would be able to help, but how? Or maybe I should take her to the doctors, but hate to think of her being medicated up to the eyeballs.

I feel awful. She's only 5. She has a loving stable home. We've never slapped or hit her. I have tried everything from zero tolerance to sending her to her room, taking her toys away, denying her things she loves ie seeing her friends when she's been really naughty but nothing helps.

Is her behaviour just 'naughty' or does she need specialist help? Just want to get my lovely little baby back

'I have tried everything'
Therein lies the problem I woudl think. You need to pick an approach and stick to it. Even if it breaks your heart, which it probably will. Don't just threaten punishments, carry them out. And be consistent. It will be even harder now you have a 7 mo as well, but this is best npped in the bud while they are both still relatively small.

does she do this in school or elsewhere?

that incident alone doesnt sound too bad....but i'm guessing there is more

doctors didnt do much for us with behavioural issues with my dd....and i think it would need to be a proper diagnosis for drugs to be prescribed!!!

good as gold at school, no probs at all. She saves it all for home I guess. She seems to get upset over the smallest of things. This morning she put her shoe on the wrong foot and when I told her to take it off she went hysterical for about an hour, rolling around the floor screaming.

Have a read of Stanley Greenspan the challenging child.

tired?

my own dd has her trigger for bad behaviour,and thats hunger. i doubt very much social services can help here though. sounds like a parenting problem

she doesnt do this in school,yet saves it for you?? why?

My first thought is that she now has a baby brother - are there dcs in between, or is she your first and ds your second?

Agree that finding one approach and sticking to it is the best thing to do. That and a sticker charts, LOTS of praise for good behaviour, making sure you and she/ she and dh/ all 3 of you get to do something together, so she has time away from ds.

And when she starts a tantrum, don't speak to her or look at her, just make sure the area's safe, and walk away. Obviously you can't do that in the middle of a shop, but where possible, that's the best approach.

I would think she doesn't do it in school because her baby brother hasn't encroached on that part of her life - school hasn't changed, home has. Lots of children react in a big way to having a sibling, and sometimes not immediately. I imagine at 7 months your ds is getting a lot more attention - he's just starting to sit/ crawl/do more things, and perhaps dd is feeling left out.

Just a theory.

unfortunately the baby gets very little attention because dd is literally taking up all my time and energy. I should have said that she's been like this way before I had ds, so don't think its down to me having another baby. Plus she absolutely dotes on her little brother, no sign of jealousy at all.

I mentioned social services in a I can't cope anymore way. I wondered if there is any support or help they could provide.

Is their a 'sure start' childrens centre near you, they might be able to offer you some help.

Have you spoken to the school? My ds1 has very challenging behaviour, too much to list, but we have always kind of made excuses for it and explained it away. Then we had ds2 and his development and behaviour made us realise that ds1's behaviour is not usual (don't want to say normal). Anyway ds1 has problems at school although he reacts differently at school to how he does at home.

I finally spoke to his teacher after a weekend when dp and I felt we could not go on. I expected her to say ds1 is fine, but she agreed with what I was saying (we think he may have some kind of ASD). The school has been monitoring his behaviour and trying some different techniques to help him cope. This in turn has helped me cope. Just the fact that others have recognised that ds1 does seem to have some problems has meant I don't feel like such a rubbish mum for feeling unable to cope.

At the age of five it can be difficult to determine if their behaviour is normal which is why ds1's school is monitioring him before getting the SENCO involved. But I think talking to the school should be your first step before doctors.

Please don't write your daughter off. She is 5 years old. What she needs from you is some consistent parenting, and a united front from you and your dh. Are you sure you'rnot blaming other trouble in your relationship on her behaviour? I can see that that would be difficult. Your best bet is to speak to your HV. And make some special time for just you and your dd, perhaps last thing at night. My dd is 6, my ds 2 and he is extremely difficult, and takes up a lot of my time (your saying that the baby has had no bearing on the behaviour doens't strike me as being 100% true if I'm honest. Your lives will be entirely different to before he was born). I make sure that last thing at night, and especially at weekends, I have a special story, or every week we have a movie night where we stay up with some popcorn, so she knows she is treasured and valued, even though, goign purely on attention, my ds has much more day to day, just because he is a toddler and boisterous. At 6 she is old enough to be told and shown that her behaviour is unacceptable, and you, as her parents, need to reinforce that. Social services are not there to deal with tantruming children. Have you been assesed for PND?

call Super Nanny ?

Please don't take offence ...she is as good as gold at school so this is about her home life or her parents ...to put it bluntly. BooBoo has given some great advice. SS may refer to CAMHS but I would try a parenting class for yourself first. BTW - I have been through this ...and did a parenting class myself ...worked wonders.

The challenging child by Stanley Greenspan. It will help whether your child is NT or has some unidentified special needs. DS3 is my challenging child :)

Very useful- especially for children who fly off the handle if little things go wrong. (Those sorts of kids can sometimes hold it together at school and let it all fly out at home).

Oh I will say I went on a parenting course when ds3 was small (mainly to support the friend who was running it for the first time) and there was someone there whose child clearly had what I would call beyond typical issues and I felt a bit sorry for her as it was obvious she was doing the 'right' things but they weren't going to work (she had another child with no behavioural issues). Anyway fast forward many years and he was eventually diagnosed.

So if you do go on a parenting course and find that you're thinking 'wtf?? nope doesn't work' then it might be a sign that you need to take it further. Definitely worth trying though.

What did you do when she broke the vase btw?

Perhaps not very helpful but I was EXACTLY like this as a child. Good as gold at school but so awful at home, with very violent and prolonged tantrums.

I just remember feeling very angry all the time, and that was the only way to express it.

It lasted until I was about 12 I think, and then I slowly grew out of it.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong, I think some kids are just like that. I certainly was.

FWIW, I can remember getting even angrier when my parents shouted at me for having a tantrum. I always felt I could have got out of it so much faster if they just left me to it.

saintly you say your DS3 is your challenging child so you have 2 that were easier. In that case do you think it's down to parenting or just the way the child is.

The reason I ask is because I only had the one who was challenging and sometimes it was hard for other parents who had more compliant children to understand, they tut-tutted as if to say it was my parenting skills.

I didn't go on a course but wonder if I should have. All OK now, she is nearly grown up.

I don't have 2 that are easier. DS1 is severely autistic :o I have one very very easy laid back child though (ds2).

I think it is how they are. I also think Stanley Greenspan has it exactly right in his book about challenging children - a lot of challenging children are very over sensitive in some way. In ds3's case it took me a long time to realise this as he could be so loud and shouty and angry. At home. When he first went full time to pre-school (the year before reception) he was practically mute.

In his case I think there are a few issues. Firstly he is actually a very anxious child - this is getting more obvious as he's older as he will articulate it more - he looked the opposite when he was younger as he could be so physically gung-ho. Secondly he had some visual problems which I think meant he couldn't see that well (still can't often imo).

Stanley Greenspan talks a lot about the sensory issues that can make a child challenging - you might find it interesting to read even though your dd is nearly grown up. DS3 fitted 'the defiant child' type.

The book sounds very interesting. I can remember trying star charts the lot, nothing worked. Will second what Cumbria said. DD did grow out of and is a very well behaved young lady (most of the time).

If anyone has a family links course running nearby please go, its a wonderful course and by far the best imo.
I agree take a method and stick to it but also go to the GP and ask for a referal to Child development centre just to be sure its not anything else.
How long has she been at school? School can be very tiring for children.

Also you sound very stress (of course) and I know my childrens behaviour seems so much worse when I feel bad, so maybe think thing though and see it with a clear head.

Hope you get somewhere

maryz, we had this. Would only wear certain things, sit in certain seats, frightened of change etc. No diagnosis 15 years ago or mumsnet unfortunately.

To the OP, I would start the ball rolling by speaking to your HV. DD was able to hold it together at school but teachers did point out concerns, not that she misbehaved, but that she was showing traits of 'something'. I ignored it all and persevered because I didn't understand it and was frightened.

I may get flamed for suggesting this but I wonder if when your DD has a tantrum about the shoes you ignore and then when finished calmly put on her shoes praising her for doing it and then walk to school. Yes she may be late - do not make a big deal - but wondering whether the lack of reaction and praise for good things along with no reaction for lateness will take the thrill out of tantrum iyswim.

As I say it sounds strange but my friend said it worked for her DC who was as you described. She was at her wits end too. It actually got to the point we were going out one day, told her DC to put sox and trainers on as needed warmer shoes and would be walking a lot, her Dc refused point blank kicking her as she helped her with her sox so we all put ours on and went to the car. Her DC ran after us clutching crocs, spent the day with cold and damp feet, tantrumed over it but it was all ignored but lots of praise for noticing things, manners etc. I was a bit at friend if im honest. BUT the day after she put on the shoes asked (a first I might add!), and by continuing this way of dealing with tantrums almost always now she'll do whats asked of her first time as she nows she'll get praise not attention.

Sorry its long winded but I do think its easy to get into a negative pattern - thats not an acussation OP just an observation from my experience.

Of course tho aknowledge a child is angry /cross if they tantrum but don't condone the behaviour iyswim.

Hope things improve for you.

My son is a bit like this too,but also takes risks runs off etc. and he does have glue ear. I have talked to the school nurse who has visited the school and she thinks he should be seen by an educational psychologist or paediatrician. Unfortunately he has a very old fashioned teacher who told her that in her opinion it was my parenting. Anyway the school nurse was very kind so she may be able to help you.