restraint

[WreckOfTheHesperus]

DD (2.6)has been getting out of bed and playing around for 1-2 hours every evening for nearly a year now.

Rather than doing the rapid return technique and letting her get out of bed in the first place, we are now trying to keep her in bed by holding the duvet fairly firmly tightly, so that she can't get out.

Is this a Bad Thing, or has it actually worked for anybody with a similar problem?

Thanks for any opinions or advice

I wouldn't necessarily use force to get my way....perhaps try again with rapid return.

thanks scurryfunge, but rapid return is also force, isn't it? Do you think it differs in an essential way?

It is to a certain degree, just less severe!

I see it more as a guiding back to bed rather than physically holding someone in a position. If your child resists for a long time I think it would be more stressful for everyone.

Could you sit on the bed and ignore her, but by sitting hold the cover down.....just less obvious to DD??

I really wouldn't do this- it carries a risk of suffocation.

Not trying to frighten you, but if a child was in care and this technique was used, there would be an outcry.

Trouble with rapid return is that it can be seen as an excellent game! And then becomes a battle of wills rather than just guiding back to bed.

Like the idea of sitting on the covers to hold them down unobtrusively.

Tethersend, DD's head is not beneath the covers at any time, so there is no risk of suffocation. Any other alternative suggestions more then welcome.

I know that, Wreck- the pressure of the duvet on the chest can easily become too much. I know you're careful, but I just wonder how you would react if this was done in a different setting.

I train people in the use of restraint in educational and care settings, so I am going to have a slightly different view on it I suppose- but I think it is a Bad Thing, not least because it reinforces the message that bed is a punishment. You did ask...

TAKE THE TOYS OUT OF THE BEDROOM! Use black out blinds, make it very very dull, bedrooms are for sleeping.

I wouldn't see it in a positive light either.

I don't like the idea of a child feeling physically trapped in bed and I also think that it could cause stress and panic type feeling why are going to prevent sleep.

I know the rapid return method can become a game for a while but the idea is that you keep going through that stage until it just becomes boring. No speaking, no eye contact, nothing which feels at all fun.

I would keep going with that so you are using more boredom than physical force to get your point across IYSWIM.

Adrenaline is present in the bloodstream for 45 minutes after an incident such as fighting or struggling- not conducive to sleep.

I take your points, and I am feeling uncomfortable with this approach myself.

We just don't know what to do; this has been going on for so long now, and I'm worried we're in a pattern now which we can't break...DD is not tired or grumpy in the day, but is often getting only 10 hours sleep a day, instead of the recommended 12.

wreck sorry but imo yes its fundamentally a Bad Thing on several levels. The suffocation risk is one things, you're not teaching her good sleep habits (rather than bedtime and sleep are something to be fought against), and you're establishing a battle of wills which she can only lose, you're actually bullying her into submitting to your will (for her own good obviously but still). Sorry to be harsh as I can see you're trying to do your best by her.

Practical steps:

1. Take most of the toys out, leave a small box with carefully selected small toys (DS2 has his aqua draw, a few teddies and some board books. As you say she's fine on 10 hours a night I wouldn't worry too much, the recommended 12 hours is a recommendation and all children are different
2. Get a small lamp in place with a timer and once you've done your bedtime routine give her 10 mins quiet play then go back in for cuddles and settling down. At 2.6 you should be able to explain this to her in simple terms.
3. Keep bedtime gentle and make bed a nice place for her to be, not a battle ground. Lights off, cuddles, lullaby's. Sit with her for a little while then leave.
4. After this its bedtime and I would then use the gentle return technique where you use minimum interaction (at most mutter its bedtime with a gentle kiss) and shepherd her back to bed.

We were in a similar position with DS1 and this approach worked brilliantly for us. Took the conflict out of bedtime and improved his sleep hugely.

hth

In Australia and New Zealand they have a sort of bed tie which they use for small children rather than buy a cot. It doesn't appeal to me but a good friend has a similar of parenting has used it without qualms for her girls.

cant find a link for them at the moment.

Thanks Pheebe.

We have tried cutting down on her toys, but then she just plays with her clothes in the drawers of wardrobes, or the sheets from the linen drawer under the bed, climbs into her cupboard, bounces on the bed or climbs onto her chair or the changing table. She will find a way to play no matter what, it seems...

We already do point 2, and have tried sitting with her, but she sees that as a game, and just keeps getting out of bed, offering cuddles and kisses, or running around (I try to be as quiet and boring as possible at this point). As I work during the day, I always wonder if she sees this as an opportunity for a bit of mother and daughter time...

Rapid return she sees as a brilliant game - the kind of physical fun she is craving, even if I say nothing! We might have to give this another go, however...

Thanks for the suggestion, creequeally; can't quite envisage what you mean,however, but will google!

Was going to post, and Pheebe has said everything I would, so no need

creequealley, that sounds awful...

You could try putting her to bed a few minutes later and use the extra time to have a bit of rough and tumble play time followed by some cuddles on the sofa.

If you can find a process which works but happens later than you'd like use it and then when it's established move it earlier gradually.

The key is to make bedtime more relaxed and appealing then get it to the time you want afterwards.

If you think she is craving contact with you try giving her a Tee shirt or jumper you've been wearing that day to cuddle in bed.

Thanks Al1son, have tried to build in some bed-bouncing (her favourite!) before bathtime, and then we have a kovely bedtime routine with milk and 3 stories after the bath.

It is all very amicable, we try to keep it very relaxed post-bath and she isn't unhappy about going to bed as she loves her stories; she just doesn't actually want to go to sleep...

Has anyone had any success with a sticker chart with a child of this age? Tanya Byron's book says only for 3 and over.

Might be a bit young for a sticker chart.

I would try to tire her out a bit more earlier in the evening with a bit more physical activity if that is what she needs.

Keep the story reading downstairs so that the message is clear about the bedroom is for sleeping.

Maybe your DD doesn't need as much sleep as you think she does? Does she still have an afternoon nap - if so, would dropping that help?

My DS is 20 mo and has about 10 or 11 hours at night and 1/2 hour in the afternoon. He's happy, healthy but just doesn't need loads of sleep. Bed time is usually around 8.30 now, and we're all a lot happier for it.

what time is she going to bed? daytime nap? any food before bed?

and i understand the motivation but yeah, it's a bad idea.

She goes to bed at 8pm ish, and then reads / plays quietly for 15 mins, after which we turn the light off.

She goes to nursery, and we have tried cutting her daytime nap there from 1 hour to 20 mins, but it doesn't seem to make any difference to her sleeping at night, so we have reverted to 1 hour midday again, to get her total sleep quota up.

She walks home from nursery 2x per week, which takes an hour. On the other 3 days she goes to the park after nursery for an hour or so.

I suspect that, in an ideal world, she would get more physical exercise during the day, as she goes to sleep better at weekends, when she's been running around with us non-stop.
With her current exercise levels, I wonder if she just doesn't need 12 hours of sleep...

drop the nap.

definitely.

exercise-wise it sounds absolutely fine by the way.

Yes, definitely drop the nap. If ds2 sleeps at all during the day bedtime is just as you describe. Without a nap he's straight off an there for 10-12 hours. The key may be to make sure she's REALLY tired at bedtime.

Ok, will talk to nursery on Monday and give the no nap thing a go! Will just go with the flow this evening...