Names spelled with diacritics

[Anonymousmember667]

Apologies if this has been discussed or answered before but I have a question if anyone knows the answer, or who to ask or has any experience please?

So some names have diacritics, usually the name originates from another language other than english. Maybe the most common ones being Seán, Siobhán, Chloé, Zoë, René, Beyoncé etc etc.

Say for example, the name Chloé, Are there any issues registering this name with the diacritic on the “e” in England; on the Birth Certificate, with the NHS, in the school system, with banks, on her passport, driving licence etc etc.

Most people wouldnt know but Its simple to press the alt gr button + the letter to get most of these diacritics on a keyboard or hold the button on an apple keyboard, but do government systems and organisations systems generally support diacritic names?

Is there a right or expectation for organisations to spell your name correctly in England? Doesn't GDPR say this?

Is she destined for a lifetime of her name being spelt wrong or is she allowed to be a Chloé with an “é” !?

Thanks for any advise or experience anyone has 🙏

What about ‘ocean’?

Fawn and ocean don’t rhyme in my accent, though I know accents vary so maybe they do for some.

In any case, the point stands regarding Seán/Sean. It’s not an English language name and the pronunciation comes from the Irish language.

Although it was borrowed from Old French of course, arriving in Ireland with the Normans, and before that Hebrew I think😊
(Seán is cognate with John.)

My point was about variation in pronunciation.

There’s nothing to stop spelling giving rise to different pronunciation even when it’s identical: my cat has nine lives and lives in my house; I threw one stone; etc.

Names are particularly prone to different pronunciation. There is no rule in English against deviation in pronunciation or of obedience to an originating language.

I know a Derry Seán whose name is pronounced 'shan', like Siân. I always put the pronunciation down to him being a 'wan', since his name does use a fada.

It just seems many people don't know how diacritics change the sound of a letter or word.

In this example, the fada on the 'a' elongates the sound and changes the pronunciation to 'shawn' rather than 'shan'.

Meant to agree about the sean 'bean' example, mean, wean etc.

Lots of Hebrew root names in lovely Irish names

Lots of people have names written in none english alphabet - chinese, arabic, hebrew. They have to translate their names into the english alphabet to be able to use them in english language records. Similarly a name with a diacritic is not in the english alphabet, so I would expect you'd have to translate it to that alphabet.

Fair enough. Your point wasn’t really clear from ‘What about ocean?’ though 😅

There is no rule in English against deviation in pronunciation or of obedience to an originating language.
I wouldn’t see Sean as an English name even if the spelling lacks the fada. John is the English form.

To a Scottish person, “wean” is pronounced two ways- “ween” for the verb of introducing a child to solid food, and “wayne” to mean a child (in very very common use in the Central Belt and not all related to Gaelic, before anyone suggests it).

I’m not sure what you’re saying. Do you mean that Sean is an Irish name and therefore should only be used outside Ireland with the Irish spelling, fada and all?

If so, we’ll just have to disagree.

That’s actually due to dialectal differences and the fact á makes a different sound in Ulster. It doesn’t give the ‘aw’ sound it does in Connacht or Munster.

For example
https://www.teanglann.ie/ga/fuaim/D%C3%A1n

So your Derry friend is perfectly correct.
It seems the Munster/Connacht pronunciation of Seán is the one that has spread to other places and become well known.

I love accents (had never actually heard the word diacritic before, every day’s a school day!). Use it if you like but I wouldn’t raise my child to insist on it’s use; I think it’d become tiresome for them come across as petty and precious.

Well, then anglicise them. Shaun. Shawn.

‘Sean’ is not anglicised.

I think she is saying that anyone reading the name Sean does not think of it as a name which will follow English pronunciation rules. It just happens to be a non-English name that is so common that most people have learned how to say it (ironically, pronouncing it correctly for Séan even though it’s actually spelled incorrectly).

It’s like English people reading Diego or Guiseppe and knowing how to say them.

I’m simply saying that version/pronunciation of the name is an Irish name imo, not an English one.

Whether people use the original spelling or not is up to them. I understand that an accent would be practically difficult in places where accents aren’t typically used. Though I’m a fan of accents in general.

Yes it is. Sean, like Sean Bean and Sean Connery.

So what if it’s spelt Sean and not Shaun?

Perhaps an even better example would be that it’s like English people knowing how to pronounce Singh (which is not an obvious phonetic transliteration) even though the “correct” spelling of Singh would be in the script used to write Punjabi.

OK. I’m not sure what the point is though. If Sean is pronounced ‘shawn’ in England but doesn’t have a fada, what’s wrong with that?

Joining in as an O apostrophe surname owner. The apostrophe is on my official docs but it’s very unusual for any websites to accept it (online banking, booking flights, online shopping) If it’s going to bother you, don’t use it - it will be a problem

I’m not saying it’s wrong. I’m objecting to you saying it’s an English name.

You are saying that writing Sean is anglicising Séan. But it’s not, because to anglicise you need to use the letter combinations that follow English rules to make the Irish sound.

Sean is just copying it badly and memorising how it is said in Irish.

From my experience any diacritics can go on the birth certificate but systems can't always reproduce it after. My child has two surnames without a hyphen - spanish format. All good for the birth certificate but any other uk system includes a hyphen. Not the end of the world but does bug me.

Literally first world problems

Oh, I see. I’d agree it’s a name adopted from Ireland. And a very nice one.

So what?

@SilenceOfTheTimTams
I think we’re back to there’s more than one language in the UK and accents are not foreign to the UK then 😁