Anglicisations of Irish names

[Snowbell99]

I am just curious. What are your thoughts on anglicisations? Do you love them because they make things easier? Hate them because they ruin the beautiful original? Indifferent? Depends on the name?

I love many Irish names and this is just something I think about every once in a while. I am curious to hear your opinions.

I know several people named Shaun, Ailish, Eavan, Ashling and Neve. I feel like spellings such as these are being used less and less often. I also feel like people care more about fadas and using them properly.

A friend was thinking about Seersha for a while but people online got really upset because they found it inacceptable that she "butchered" the spelling. I personally much prefer Saoirse as well but I don't hate Seersha.

Also, do you think the acceptance of anglicisations has declined over the years? I sort of feel like this is the case. Anglicisations used to be more common from my experience, even in Ireland. But now the originals seem to be used more often, even more complicated names. I am wondering if this has something to do with the internet and people being able to look things up more easily. In the 90s you might have heard a more unusual Irish name and it would have been harder to figure out what the original was.

For me it really depends on the name. I am so used to Kiera and Keira for Ciara that they look perfectly fine to me. To be honest, the first time I saw Ailish it looked pretty bad to me and I find Ailis much prettier. But I got used to it. Seersha isn't really a favourite either I find Saoirse prettier.

For me personally in many cases I think I'd rather explain myself all my life than have the anglicisation of an Irish name but people might feel differently about this and even my children might and they may not appreciate being named Éadaoin or whatever I end up choosing. But I am curious to hear what you think. You can also name examples.

Mine:

Kiera - this actually looks nice to me and I would consider it if Keira hadn't been so common and I wouldn't be worried about people mixing them up. I also like Ciara, though.

Ailish - it looks more like an adjective that way and makes me think of "ailing", "fish" and "dish" therefore I really prefer Ailis. I am getting used to it, though.

Keeva and Seersha - I think they look sort of awkward but still okay. But I find Caoimhe and Saoirse much more beautiful.

Aideen - I prefer Éadaoin but Aideen looks fine to me.

Ashling - it doesn't look terrible at all, but I still like Aisling better.

Eavan - I prefer Aoibheann, the spelling is part of the appeal for me personally.

What is the most interesting anglicisation you have seen? What is your favourite? Least favourite?

It's not an Irish letter tho!
Agree re some newer Irish names nicer. I have a Conor and wouldn't have considered Conchubhair!

K is a Greek letter. Not English. It would make Irish way easier to read.

Easier for who?!

I’m not a fan of them at all, but the alternative for a lot of people is probably much worse, eg I’d prefer someone to call and spell their daughter’s name ‘Aveen’, rather than Aoibhinn, which should be pronounced Eve-een. At least the pronunciation will be correct.

I think spellings like Maeve, Neeve and Shawn are a pity. Beautiful names, as Gaeilge!

It’s not only Irish names that are meddled with.

I'm not a fan of anglicisations in general, but some are very well established now, like Maeve.

I do prefer the simplest correct Irish spelling though - Órla or Orla is so much easier to live with than Órlaith and is still valid.

I have ranted about the names Ayveen, Kate-lynn and Soresha on here under many different usernames

@SeanChailleach

I like some Irish spellings and some anglicised ones. It depends on the name and the spelling. Órfhlaith looks ugly to me. Órla quite pretty on the page. Áine looks very plain, so does Síle. I prefer Anya and the old-fashioned Shelagh. I love the letter K, and I think of it as an Irish letter - so I prefer Keira to Ciara.

Aine and Anya are pronounced differently.

Really don't understand why so many English people have trouble pronouncing Irish names and insist on changing changing the spelling and pronunciation.

What about,Spanish,Eastern European,Chinese,Indian names??? Never see a post suggesting these names should be pronounced or spelt differently.

For the record Colleen is not pronounced Killeen which I regularly hear.

Books would be shorter, ink and paper would be saved. It would take fewer keystrokes. There would be no ambivalent words where you aren't sure which vowels are there to narrow the consonants and which are functioning as vowels.
My father, Prof Brian O Cuiv, referred in a lecture he gave in Trinity College, later published in Irish Dialects in Irish Speaking Districts, to the outrage the leitriu shimpli provoked. However, he went on to say, "the many critics of the old leitriu shimpli who were scandalised by the spelling Cuiv in my name, would have been even more shocked to see for the year 1259, the entry 'Corc mac Finguni I Kymh d'ec. Beannact era anmin'. The quotation is from the annals of Inishfallen (which were written in Irish)".
Eamonn Ó Cuív TD writing in the Independent June 17 2005
www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/its-shimpli-really-25980691.html

Aine and Anya are pronounced differently.

This is what I don't get. How is Anya an anglicised version of Áine? Google tells me it is the Russian diminutive of Anna. It's just people making stuff up and claiming it's Irish. Like someone the other day on here that though Quillan was an Irish name that meant cub

Yes, agree about Áine. You hear Awnya, Oinya and Onya depending on accent and dialect but never Anya.

@user1477391263

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_orthography#Spelling_reform

This thread has sent me down a Wikipedia rabbit hole. No idea that Irish spelling history was so complicated! I had always assumed that it was probably similar to Welsh ("Looks complicated to an outsider but is actually straightforwardly phonetic if you know how it works").

old spelling new spelling
beirbhiughadh beiriú
imthighthe imithe
faghbháil fáil
urradhas urrús
filidheacht filíocht

I'm sure some purists regret that the reform ever happened but man, some of those words were overly long!

@RoastedFerret

Aine and Anya are pronounced differently.

This is what I don't get. How is Anya an anglicised version of Áine? Google tells me it is the Russian diminutive of Anna. It's just people making stuff up and claiming it's Irish. Like someone the other day on here that though Quillan was an Irish name that meant cub

I believe that in Russian Anya is AHN-ya (not ANN-ya) because Anna is AHN-na (sort of, hard to explain). So maybe that's where it came from? Because they are not identical but sort of close.

But yes, completely unrelated names.

Really don't understand why so many English people have trouble pronouncing Irish names and insist on changing changing the spelling and pronunciation.

With the pronunciation, English monoglots often have no ear for new sounds, or can't replicate the sounds.

With the spelling, i can sort of understand. Conchubhair looks like it might be Contch-oo-bair, whereas Conor is straightforward, apart from some might spell it with 2 ns.

Part of what annoys me is that people who have only a tenuous connection will name their child mispronounce or misspell the name, say it means something else and that it is irish

@RoastedFerret, I think the misinformation comes from baby name sites.
The welsh ones includes some bonkers suggestions, so the irish ones probably do too

Some american actress had a baby girl, named the girl Osian (Welsh version of Oisin), and said it was Welsh for Ocean. It is a welsh name for a boy, isn't pronounced ocean and doesn't mean ocean

[quote KirstenBlest]@RoastedFerret, I think the misinformation comes from baby name sites.
The welsh ones includes some bonkers suggestions, so the irish ones probably do too

Some american actress had a baby girl, named the girl Osian (Welsh version of Oisin), and said it was Welsh for Ocean. It is a welsh name for a boy, isn't pronounced ocean and doesn't mean ocean[/quote]
Yes, these sites are a real problem. Friends named a daughter Malea thinking that it meant "flower" in Hawaiian but it doesn't (I went through several dictionaries because I was curious and it has no meaning in Hawaiian at all, it is just sometimes used as an alternate version of Malia which is a Hawaiian version of Maria). I would always ask someone who speaks the language. Malea is still a decent name but I'd be sad if it didn't have the meaning I intended to use.

@Ellaraine

Really don't understand why so many English people have trouble pronouncing Irish names and insist on changing changing the spelling and pronunciation.

What about,Spanish,Eastern European,Chinese,Indian names??? Never see a post suggesting these names should be pronounced or spelt differently.

For the record Colleen is not pronounced Killeen which I regularly hear.

I'm pretty good with reading IPA notation - but even I struggled with that Irish orthography wiki page people linked earlier. When you're growing up you get tuned into the phonology of your native language(s) and the sounds that aren't part of that get tuned out and forgotten - so because we haven't had that exposure and use of those sounds - we lose much of the ability to discriminate between them and articulate them. Ask anyone who's studied phonetics and it's incredibly bloody hard to learn to make the sounds in the IPA that aren't part of languages you're fluent in - it's like someone abducted your tongue and replaced it with a bit of lettuce that needs an ASBO.

Chinese it took me months to get my brain around the tones used when a friend was trying to teach me some Mandarin - and I still really struggle with it.

[quote KirstenBlest]@RoastedFerret, I think the misinformation comes from baby name sites.
The welsh ones includes some bonkers suggestions, so the irish ones probably do too

Some american actress had a baby girl, named the girl Osian (Welsh version of Oisin), and said it was Welsh for Ocean. It is a welsh name for a boy, isn't pronounced ocean and doesn't mean ocean[/quote]
The Irish baby name sites are completely mad. Someone pointed out recently on an Irish names thread that they always seem to be set up and 'researched' by Colleen from Ohio who's closest connection to Ireland is that her great-great-great-great-great granny emigrated from Ballydehob. And as all the US-centric Irish names seem to use the same cod-etymology (I mean, no, there wasn't a High King called Brayden, and Quillan isn't an Irish name at all, far less one that means 'cub'), I imagine the nonsense as sort of memes floating around multiplying in cyberspace inspiring shite tattoos and unfortunate baby names.

Here are recordings of native Irish speakers saying the word "báine", which rhymes with "Áine":
www.teanglann.ie/ga/fuaim/b%c3%a1ine
The first one, in Ulster Irish, sounds like Anya to me.
Teanglann is a great resource.

@SeanChailleach

Here are recordings of native Irish speakers saying the word "báine", which rhymes with "Áine": www.teanglann.ie/ga/fuaim/b%c3%a1ine The first one, in Ulster Irish, sounds like Anya to me. Teanglann is a great resource.

So you googled to the pronunciation of milk to try and prove that Anya for Áine isn't made up scutter? I mean go for it but I think 95%(Conservative estimate) of Irish people that see name Anya wouldn't think that it's an Irish name or a name that is connected to Ireland, no matter how much it might rhyme with milk up north.

Báine doesn't mean milk, sweetie.
Bainne means milk. No fada, double n.

How do you feel about Enya for Eithne? Do you think 95% of Irish people would think that a native speaker from Donegal is making up s utter a out her own name?

@JayAlfredPrufrock

Kaitlyn annoys me.

Pronounced Kate Lynn

That's the only one that bothers me really. I don't know why, I'm not judgemental about names at all, never had a bad reaction to hearing a new babies name. I don't care if they are called Diamond Lil or Thor, I don't care if they are from another culture but for some reason Kate Lynn give me the rage and I have no idea why.

@Moyny, I've seen welsh names sites with irish names on. Something like Erin I can understand, as it works phonetically, but not Caitlin. There are boys' names on the girls' list and vice versa, random words like hunger, wheelbarrow and wheel suggested as names and so on.

The welsh names threads on here tend to end up a bunfight. Suggestions are usually names that are dated now, or they are misspelt, and there are arguments over pronunciation. Welsh is phonetic but people will argue that how a name sound in a part of Wales where Welsh isn't much spoken is the correct one, when it isn't. Parts of Wales have Welsh as the everyday language and in others it's more of a dialect - English peppered with Welsh-ish words and idioms.

The Welsh Not was not that long ago, and some of my close relatives were affected

Kate Lynn is fine, just don't try to pass it off as irish

@SeanChailleach

Báine doesn't mean milk, sweetie. Bainne means milk. No fada, double n.

How do you feel about Enya for Eithne? Do you think 95% of Irish people would think that a native speaker from Donegal is making up s utter a out her own name?

Meh, the point still stands, sweetie

I'm not sure why you are so touchy about the name Anya? It clearly isn't Irish, it has no links to Ireland. Apologies if you/your loved one/cat is called Anya, I like it as a name but it's not Irish.